Question for Pet Owners - Raw Food Diet for Pets?

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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: kschachn

What are you talking about? I've never even used the words "parasite"


Think that was me. Sorry to intrude on The Great Grape Debate, but the thing is, interesting observation though it is, in the big picture, grapes don’t matter.

Parasites do, and their (entirely natural) nature means eating raw meat is a really bad idea.

There’s a lot of hippy-dippy holistic horse-hemorrhoid hooey hooted about the nature and niceness of natural. I know some otherwise quite intelligent people who are absolutely convinced that brown sugar (that’s less refined sugar with more industrial waste in it, or refined sugar with fake industrial waste added back into it) is more natural, and therefore better, than white sugar.

Of course some things are genuinely natural. Leprosy for example, or rabies.

Nature is a mother.

Weapons aside, if something artificial, (say dioxin, thalidomide, radioiodine from a melting nuclear reactor, anthropogenic greenhouse gas) harms you, its likely to be an accident. In nature, its likley to be elegantly and precisely designed for the job.

Nature is a mother of invention.

If, by bad luck or poor judgement, you find yourself alone in the sea with a big, interested shark, that’s an intensely natural and visceral experience, but it’s perhaps not much nicer than, say, being targeted by a Hellfire missile.

Eating processed dog food is more dangerous than eating a properly prepared raw diet. My opinions expressed here had nothing to do with the "hippy-dippy holistic" crowd. I'm the furthest thing from that. I've been caring for dogs for 40 years. Been feeding them pretty much everything under the sun at one time or another. All four of my current dogs have done better on a raw diet than even the most premium of processed kibble. Not once has a dog of mine had any type of negative reaction to this diet. Any issues with parasites or food poisoning with a raw diet has less data available to substantiate those claims than the grape/raison debate. Grapes HAVE caused organ failure in canines....so have onions, chocolate, the pits of various fruits. This isn't a fact. It doesn't mean that all dogs, after eating one grape are going to croak. But it does mean that they should definitely be avoided.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Seems pretty widespread, and well understood...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2005.tb02744.x/pdf

a pound of raisins would make me ill as well as the 43 dogs studied...


There are several studies available involving much higher numbers of subjects. The majority of vets agree with these studies. Why? Because they've actually treated these cases. But knock yourself out (or your dog). Feed them what you wish...you know better as a skeptic.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?


Nope, back in 1976 there was no internet full of armchair experts and fearmongers to tell us that the grapes that the greyhounds chose to eat (nor any other of the stuff that they chose) was "highly toxic"...even in the internet age, it doesn't seem that common or well understood what/if the issue is.


OK, I'll bite...how many dogs have been killed by eating grapes ?

Nnumbers work, please supply some.

Also, some peer reviewed studies would be useful.

Before the internet, my dogs always had some onion and garlic occasionally in their food...they (the animals) seemed less palatable to fleas with some onion and garlic...never realised that onions were deadly either. And they always got chocolate treats, before chocolate treats were made for pets...again, they never ate a whole block, just a couple of squares occasionally.

Now there's the internet, I realise that I need to keep all of these things in the gunsafe.

So studies on grapes and the horrific toll that they have taken on our canine companions would help teach us all.


You've exaggerated previous posts here in order to try and make your stuck-in-the-past skeptic mindset palatable. Nobody said that eating an onion, garlic clove, or a grape is "deadly". However, they can and have killed dogs and/or made them very ill. Why risk something like that with a beloved pet?? And I can't even believe that you still think chocolate is fine for dogs. You are unbelievable in your promotion of these practices as being fine....even in moderation. Hopefully you won't influence some person on here that those foods are okay to feed dogs.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
And I can't even believe that you still think chocolate is fine for dogs. You are unbelievable in your promotion of these practices as being fine....even in moderation. Hopefully you won't influence some person on here that those foods are okay to feed dogs.


Quote me where I have advocated that !!!

Or it's more of your made up "arguing" tecnhique....
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
And I can't even believe that you still think chocolate is fine for dogs. You are unbelievable in your promotion of these practices as being fine....even in moderation. Hopefully you won't influence some person on here that those foods are okay to feed dogs.


Quote me where I have advocated that !!!

Or it's more of your made up "arguing" tecnhique....


You didn't specifically "advocate" it, but made it sound like some of these foods are not that harmful to dogs based on antidotal experience. Data today says otherwise IMO. If I owned a dog I'd certainly heed the information on what's toxic and harmful to them.
 
No, I was reporting what my animals did/did not do prior to the Internet Fear Factory coming into existence.

Dad's greyhounds gorged themselves on grapes, my dogs had chocolate treats before there were doggy chocs, and I used onion/garlic in their food for flea control...I don't know of any dog that ever got ill bar MUm's Jack Russel who stole a whole chicken stock-cube, then suffered shivers and shakes for a night. My elkhound ate a back yard full of fungi (some sort of toadstool), and vomited/halucinated for 24 hours

If you can point me to where I've advised anything in this thread but the BARF developed by my former vet Ian Billinghurst, I'll prove corrected.

Alarmist "deadly" statements are just alarmist claptrap. Listen to Andrew G, and a dog walking past a bottle of wine will die (BTW, do they still have dogs in France ???...or the NAPA valley ???)

http://www.nomorevetbills.com/2011/grapes-toxic-to-dogs/

Quote:
A real poison is a poison every time it is eaten


A pound of raisins is going to cause ME issues...a half pound block of chocolate is NOT a dog getting an occasional treat, it's a stupid owner...so is them getting into the stock cubes, medicine cabinet and eating all the meaty flea treatments.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
And I can't even believe that you still think chocolate is fine for dogs. You are unbelievable in your promotion of these practices as being fine....even in moderation. Hopefully you won't influence some person on here that those foods are okay to feed dogs.


Quote me where I have advocated that !!!

Or it's more of your made up "arguing" tecnhique....


You didn't specifically "advocate" it, but made it sound like some of these foods are not that harmful to dogs based on antidotal experience. Data today says otherwise IMO. If I owned a dog I'd certainly heed the information on what's toxic and harmful to them.


Thank you Zee!

I was beginning to think that nobody on this board understood that. He MOST CERTAINLY showed complete doubt and scoffed at the facts that dogs have died due to eating various items. That, in itself, is close to advocating it....and foolishness. He is basically telling people to take no notice of any possible harm and do as you've always done. Common sense...and decent, humane treatment of animals is a trait I thought most folks shared.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
No, I was reporting what my animals did/did not do prior to the Internet Fear Factory coming into existence.

Dad's greyhounds gorged themselves on grapes, my dogs had chocolate treats before there were doggy chocs, and I used onion/garlic in their food for flea control...I don't know of any dog that ever got ill bar MUm's Jack Russel who stole a whole chicken stock-cube, then suffered shivers and shakes for a night. My elkhound ate a back yard full of fungi (some sort of toadstool), and vomited/halucinated for 24 hours

If you can point me to where I've advised anything in this thread but the BARF developed by my former vet Ian Billinghurst, I'll prove corrected.

Alarmist "deadly" statements are just alarmist claptrap. Listen to Andrew G, and a dog walking past a bottle of wine will die (BTW, do they still have dogs in France ???...or the NAPA valley ???)

http://www.nomorevetbills.com/2011/grapes-toxic-to-dogs/

Quote:
A real poison is a poison every time it is eaten


A pound of raisins is going to cause ME issues...a half pound block of chocolate is NOT a dog getting an occasional treat, it's a stupid owner...so is them getting into the stock cubes, medicine cabinet and eating all the meaty flea treatments.


NOTHING to do with a "fear factory". The information about ALL the foods I have listed has been of concern to pets for many decades. You like to belittle when you disagree. Why is that? My statements have not been "alarmist" in nature. MOST vets (if not all) will warn caution with the foods brought up here.

I have no idea where you've gotten your "pound" of raisons garbage. I never said anything of the kind...and YOU know it. There is NOTHING alarmist about learning what may cause serious harm to animals.

You are an odd fellow to be sure....very odd indeed.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Seems pretty widespread, and well understood...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2005.tb02744.x/pdf

a pound of raisins would make me ill as well as the 43 dogs studied...


Quote:
Estimates of the amount of raisins ingested were available for 24 of the dogs that ingested only raisins. The median amount ingested was 448 g


So what? There have also been veterinary cases where a dog only ate a a handful or two of grapes and suffered kidney damage. Do a little research on your own if you are capable of being objective.
Only a real piece of work would not take at least some precaution.
 
I'm at work and don't have time to read every reply, so please forgive me if mine is redundant. That said, your cat is extremely obese. IMHO a diet that addresses his weight as the first priority is more important than a raw-vs-cooked question. One of the fastest ways to help an obese cat lose weight is to switch from dry kibble to a canned or wet-food diet. Canned food is about 75-78% water, which is similar to what they get in the wild eating mice and birds.

In their natural state, felines live right on the edge of dehydration. They rarely drink water in the wild, instead getting their water from their prey. Dry kibble is too concentrated for their kidneys to process. I personally think that the new fad of grain-free dry kibble, with even higher protein content than "regular" kibble, is much too hard on their kidneys. Several of my cats developed chronic renal failure after I switched them from a medium-protein Eagle Pack kibble to high-protein grain-free kibble. My solution was to switch them all to canned food only. For one cat it was too late, but the others did well for about five more years before succumbing to old age. They all maintained healthy weights once they were on canned food only. Canned is more expensive than dry, but none of my cats developed diabetes or any other weight-related illnesses.

If you make your cat's diet yourself, make sure to supplement it with Taurine. Cats will go blind and develop dilated cardiomyopathy if they don't get adequate Taurine in their diet. I recently rescued a starving cat who is about a year and a half old. She's had several litters of kittens all while starving herself. She's blind in one eye, has night-blindness in the other eye and had cardiomyopathy. Her recovery wasn't going well until I added Taurine to her diet.

Whether the O/P's cat eats dry, canned or raw, what he really needs is less. Also, digestive enzymes and probiotics from NWC Naturals replace what the processing takes out. It makes a HUGE difference in their health. You can get it at Amazon.

HTH!
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Any issues with parasites or food poisoning with a raw diet has less data available to substantiate those claims than the grape/raison debate.



There are whole university vetrinary, zoology, and medical departments devoted to invertebrate parasitology. This statement defies reality, to its face.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Any issues with parasites or food poisoning with a raw diet has less data available to substantiate those claims than the grape/raison debate.



There are whole university vetrinary, zoology, and medical departments devoted to invertebrate parasitology. This statement defies reality, to its face.


Of course the study of "parasitology" is undertaken. I have no doubt that any creature eating parasite infected foods could contract one. What I was stating...was that by feeding a dog a proper raw diet of human grade food...the data of those dogs contacting parasites is about ZERO. As I've said before....your dog has an equal or greater chance of becoming seriously ill eating processed dog food (per the 2007 recall after the deaths of at least 7,000 pets).
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Seems pretty widespread, and well understood...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2005.tb02744.x/pdf

a pound of raisins would make me ill as well as the 43 dogs studied...


Quote:
Estimates of the amount of raisins ingested were available for 24 of the dogs that ingested only raisins. The median amount ingested was 448 g


From page 3 of the PDF dog study, entitled "Exposure":

"Twenty-eight dogs ingested raisins, 13 ingested grapes,
and 2 dogs ingested both. The types of raisins ingested were
mainly natural seedless (dark) raisins, but golden seedless
raisins were ingested by at least 1 dog. In 1 dog, the raisins
were described as organic. Estimates of the amount of raisins
ingested were available for 24 of the dogs that ingested
only raisins. The median amount ingested was 448 g (16
oz), with a range of 42 to 896 g (1.5–32 oz) reported. The
estimated dosage of raisins ranged from 2.8 to 36.4 g/kg
(0.1–1.3 oz/kg), with a median dosage of 19.6 g/kg (0.7 oz/
kg). No statistically significant difference was identified in
the dosages of raisins ingested by dogs that survived and
those that died or were euthanized (P= .46), and no correlation
was found between the times until death and the
dosages of raisins ingested in dogs that did not survive (P= .86)."

Based on the red text, the dosage didn't really have any correlation to if the dogs survived or died, or how long it took for a dog to die - or had to be euthanized because they were in such bad shape and would have slowly died anyway.

That tells me that 1 oz of raisins could be as bad as a pound or two depending on the dog.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Seems pretty widespread, and well understood...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2005.tb02744.x/pdf

a pound of raisins would make me ill as well as the 43 dogs studied...


Quote:
Estimates of the amount of raisins ingested were available for 24 of the dogs that ingested only raisins. The median amount ingested was 448 g


From page 3 of the PDF dog study, entitled "Exposure":

"Twenty-eight dogs ingested raisins, 13 ingested grapes,
and 2 dogs ingested both. The types of raisins ingested were
mainly natural seedless (dark) raisins, but golden seedless
raisins were ingested by at least 1 dog. In 1 dog, the raisins
were described as organic. Estimates of the amount of raisins
ingested were available for 24 of the dogs that ingested
only raisins. The median amount ingested was 448 g (16
oz), with a range of 42 to 896 g (1.5–32 oz) reported. The
estimated dosage of raisins ranged from 2.8 to 36.4 g/kg
(0.1–1.3 oz/kg), with a median dosage of 19.6 g/kg (0.7 oz/
kg). No statistically significant difference was identified in
the dosages of raisins ingested by dogs that survived and
those that died or were euthanized (P= .46), and no correlation
was found between the times until death and the
dosages of raisins ingested in dogs that did not survive (P= .86)."

Based on the red text, the dosage didn't really have any correlation to if the dogs survived or died, or how long it took for a dog to die - or had to be euthanized because they were in such bad shape and would have slowly died anyway.

That tells me that 1 oz of raisins could be as bad as a pound or two depending on the dog.


You aren't supposed to make sense nor use your brain Zee. You are a "fear monger", remember?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You aren't supposed to make sense nor use your brain Zee. You are a "fear monger", remember?


0.00019% of the dogs in the US died from possible grape/raisin toxicity in 2004.

Is that the number that you "fathom" when declaring them highly toxic ?

Originally Posted By: andrewg

You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?


Still interested in how there are any dogs left in France or the NAPA valley.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You aren't supposed to make sense nor use your brain Zee. You are a "fear monger", remember?


0.00019% of the dogs in the US died from possible grape/raisin toxicity in 2004.

Is that the number that you "fathom" when declaring them highly toxic ?

Originally Posted By: andrewg

You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?


Still interested in how there are any dogs left in France or the NAPA valley.


Keep tryin old boy...keep on tryin. Maybe someday your posts will make some sort of intellectual sense.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You aren't supposed to make sense nor use your brain Zee. You are a "fear monger", remember?


0.00019% of the dogs in the US died from possible grape/raisin toxicity in 2004.

Is that the number that you "fathom" when declaring them highly toxic ?

0.00019% x 73,900,000 =
140 dogs.

So the real statistic would be how many dogs ate grapes or raisins, and how many out of those died? Did a million dogs eat them and only 140 died, or did 200 or 2000 or ? dogs eat them and 140 died?

BTW, where's the source of the 0.00019% ?

Even though the percentage is small, it's still obvious that dog owners need to not let dogs eat grapes or raisins.

Dog population by year.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/198100/dogs-in-the-united-states-since-2000/
 
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