Question for Pet Owners - Raw Food Diet for Pets?

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Originally Posted By: andrewg
Many involved in canine study believe that dogs are a sort of hybrid or "scavenger" carnivore. Felines are more of a true carnivore....of course.


hybrid/scavenger sort of describes omnivore, doesn't it ?

hunter gatherer rather than true predator.

When I was a kid, Dad had greyhounds, and the home that we rented had grapevines...the greyhounds would stand up on hind legs to reach the bundles of grapes, then devour them...I'm quietly positive that they weren't mistaking them for roadkill.

I am also certain that they were eating them as a preference, as I had to clean up the "Barker's Nuts" from the back yard every Saturday.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'll back kschachn on this debate.

Note, he hasn't advocated grains in dogs...


But what is your "backing" about? That dogs can live on an omnivorous diet? I've not disagreed on that. I think you've missed the focus of the discussion. I've given points to consider that dogs are far more carnivorous than omnivorous. Kschachn basically is denying this and has actually stated that a canines metabolic system is more akin to a human beings than a carnivore. I've tried to illustrate, and successfully in my opinion, that this a gross mistatement. In return, kschachn has tried to marginalize any deviation from the status quo as an holistic minded nut-job.

Arguing on a message board is pointless anyway. It doesn't matter to me that many people believe in things that I disagree with. I should not even try to explain my reasoning on such matters. 40 years of canine experience doesn't apply here. Blissfully feed your pets whatever you like.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Many involved in canine study believe that dogs are a sort of hybrid or "scavenger" carnivore. Felines are more of a true carnivore....of course.


hybrid/scavenger sort of describes omnivore, doesn't it ?

hunter gatherer rather than true predator.

When I was a kid, Dad had greyhounds, and the home that we rented had grapevines...the greyhounds would stand up on hind legs to reach the bundles of grapes, then devour them...I'm quietly positive that they weren't mistaking them for roadkill.

I am also certain that they were eating them as a preference, as I had to clean up the "Barker's Nuts" from the back yard every SaTURDay.


You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Would uncooked meats be dangerous to ingest?


Short and most precise answer? No.


Unless you've heard of parasites. Then it'd be : Maybe.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?

You don't know that for sure either, no specific toxin in grapes has ever been identified, nor is the causation actually been shown in a study. Compared to the overall population of dogs (who very likely get a lot of grapes from various sources) there has been a small number of deaths that may be linked to grapes. But it hasn't been proven and is likely yet another case of sensationalist "science", much like the websites that postulate that grains are injurious to canines. Please post links to actual toxicity studies that conclusively document grape toxicity in canines.

It would be easy to test in a laboratory, right? Dogs are used all the time for drug studies, it's not like they are scarce or whether the study would be difficult to perform.
 
03-119B.jpg


Sorry, but just to be clear. That isn't a grape.
 
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?

You don't know that for sure either, no specific toxin in grapes has ever been identified, nor is the causation actually been shown in a study. Compared to the overall population of dogs (who very likely get a lot of grapes from various sources) there has been a small number of deaths that may be linked to grapes. But it hasn't been proven and is likely yet another case of sensationalist "science", much like the websites that postulate that grains are injurious to canines. Please post links to actual toxicity studies that conclusively document grape toxicity in canines.

It would be easy to test in a laboratory, right? Dogs are used all the time for drug studies, it's not like they are scarce or whether the study would be difficult to perform.


You should use some of your own "logic" when it comes to what harms dogs. Out of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that are fed a raw diet....how many die from parasites or spoiled meat?? Please provide proof. I can site proof that formulated and processed dogwood has killed FAR more. But you are a smart boy....look it up. But then, you seem to place a huge amount of trust in the big pet food makers.
As for grains being good for dogs instead of actual meat.....I think you get your data from Purina.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Out of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that are fed a raw diet....how many die from parasites or spoiled meat??


Dunno about dogs, I'd be surprised if the figures are available, but it'd be a very large number. IIRC in 2010 about 2000 humans died of the parasite in the image above. Thats one parasite, for which dogs are the primary host. Human infestation is a rare and unlucky accident by comparison.
 
My dogs prefer what ever I have in my hand, they know that if I eat it then it must be good. My dog loves raw potatoes, I figured that out by the way she was staring at me intently while I was cutting up potatoes.
 
I give my dog raw chicken legs with the bones. She is getting a diet of this and Orijen kibble.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You should use some of your own "logic" when it comes to what harms dogs. Out of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that are fed a raw diet....how many die from parasites or spoiled meat?? Please provide proof. I can site proof that formulated and processed dogwood has killed FAR more. But you are a smart boy....look it up. But then, you seem to place a huge amount of trust in the big pet food makers.
As for grains being good for dogs instead of actual meat.....I think you get your data from Purina.

What are you talking about? I've never even used the words "parasite" or "spoiled meat" in any of my posts. Please keep your comments straight. And it's not my "logic", it is basic, historical biochemistry rather than personal opinion or pseudoscience gathered from advocate websites.

Even so I think we are done here. Once the banter starts deviating from factual arguments and degenerates into you saying I get my "data" from Purina and trust in "big pet food makers", it reveals your true agenda and shows we won't ever come to a consensus. It's OK, you're obviously convinced that what you've read on the Internet is true and that's fine. But if there is anything I've ever posted that you'd like to refute with actual biochemical science I'm all ears.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Arguing on a message board is pointless anyway. It doesn't matter to me that many people believe in things that I disagree with. I should not even try to explain my reasoning on such matters. 40 years of canine experience doesn't apply here. Blissfully feed your pets whatever you like.

Yes, you should. That's the point of your posts, isn't it? I've explained mine, haven't I?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You should use some of your own "logic" when it comes to what harms dogs. Out of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that are fed a raw diet....how many die from parasites or spoiled meat?? Please provide proof. I can site proof that formulated and processed dogwood has killed FAR more. But you are a smart boy....look it up. But then, you seem to place a huge amount of trust in the big pet food makers.
As for grains being good for dogs instead of actual meat.....I think you get your data from Purina.

What are you talking about? I've never even used the words "parasite" or "spoiled meat" in any of my posts. Please keep your comments straight. And it's not my "logic", it is basic, historical biochemistry rather than personal opinion or pseudoscience gathered from advocate websites.

Even so I think we are done here. Once the banter starts deviating from factual arguments and degenerates into you saying I get my "data" from Purina and trust in "big pet food makers", it reveals your true agenda and shows we won't ever come to a consensus. It's OK, you're obviously convinced that what you've read on the Internet is true and that's fine. But if there is anything I've ever posted that you'd like to refute with actual biochemical science I'm all ears.


Your the individual whom started the insults and arrogant postings. You've also tried to attack those you disagree with by marginalizing them as some kind of "psycho". You seem to think that ANY opinion deviating from what pet food makers have put forth....is invalid. Even though these same dog food makers have caused the death of THOUSANDS of pets over profit. Obviously you have no memory (selective) of the huge 2007 recall of melamine poisoning that KILLED at least 4,000 pets in the U.S. That melamine came from the wheat gluten used to increase pet food profits. The object of your posts toward me is to disagree...plain and simple. I've given you several points of biological facts to consider, yet you've ignored them. You've made foolish statements that a canine has the same basic metabolism of a human (completely false). You've denied any correlation between canine deaths after eating grapes/raisons because I haven't "proved" it to you. That's ridiculous on your part as those deeply involved in canine studies disagree with you. But then...YOU know best. Being a no-it-all seems to please you.
Funny thing is, I'll bet you don't even have a dog as a pet.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Arguing on a message board is pointless anyway. It doesn't matter to me that many people believe in things that I disagree with. I should not even try to explain my reasoning on such matters. 40 years of canine experience doesn't apply here. Blissfully feed your pets whatever you like.

Yes, you should. That's the point of your posts, isn't it? I've explained mine, haven't I?


I have explained my reasons why I believe that a raw diet is best (my opinion) AND why I think a canine is actually far more of a carnivore than currently believed. You've not countered one bit of what I've said. You've belittled and treated me as some sort of internet goof-ball with a 6th grade education.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?


Nope, back in 1976 there was no internet full of armchair experts and fearmongers to tell us that the grapes that the greyhounds chose to eat (nor any other of the stuff that they chose) was "highly toxic"...even in the internet age, it doesn't seem that common or well understood what/if the issue is.

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Blissfully feed your pets whatever you like.


I used the example to demonstrate that dogs are omnivores, and go out and seek foods that aren't animals...aka, gorging themselves on grapes...not that I go out and buy grapes for dogs...there's a difference.

I've never seen a cat chase out fruit or vegetables, only grass to make themselves sick.

As to what I feed dogs (I've run out of dogs ATM, which I'm hoping to soon rectify), as mentioned before in the thread, Our local vet was Ian Billinghurst, and I trust his work.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
andrewg said:
You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?


Nope, back in 1976 there was no internet full of armchair experts and fearmongers to tell us that the grapes that the greyhounds chose to eat (nor any other of the stuff that they chose) was "highly toxic"...even in the internet age, it doesn't seem that common or well understood what/if the issue is.

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Blissfully feed your pets whatever you like. [/quote

I used the example to demonstrate that dogs are omnivores, and go out and seek foods that aren't animals...aka, gorging themselves on grapes...not that I go out and buy grapes for dogs...there's a difference.

I've never seen a cat chase out fruit or vegetables, only grass to make themselves sick.

As to what I feed dogs (I've run out of dogs ATM, which I'm hoping to soon rectify), as mentioned before in the thread, Our local vet was Ian Billinghurst, and I trust his work.


My Ragdoll cat had a preference for plain cake donuts. Another Maine Coon would take off with corn on the cob. Though the science predominantly supports a meat only diet for felines as I've read. Dogs similar, but some with some latitude.
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You obviously don't fathom that many canines have died from eating grapes....regardless if they "preferred" to eat them?? Grapes, among many different fruits, can be highly toxic to canines. But hey...what do I know?


Nope, back in 1976 there was no internet full of armchair experts and fearmongers to tell us that the grapes that the greyhounds chose to eat (nor any other of the stuff that they chose) was "highly toxic"...even in the internet age, it doesn't seem that common or well understood what/if the issue is.


OK, I'll bite...how many dogs have been killed by eating grapes ?

Nnumbers work, please supply some.

Also, some peer reviewed studies would be useful.

Before the internet, my dogs always had some onion and garlic occasionally in their food...they (the animals) seemed less palatable to fleas with some onion and garlic...never realised that onions were deadly either. And they always got chocolate treats, before chocolate treats were made for pets...again, they never ate a whole block, just a couple of squares occasionally.

Now there's the internet, I realise that I need to keep all of these things in the gunsafe.

So studies on grapes and the horrific toll that they have taken on our canine companions would help teach us all.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn

What are you talking about? I've never even used the words "parasite"


Think that was me. Sorry to intrude on The Great Grape Debate, but the thing is, interesting observation though it is, in the big picture, grapes don’t matter.

Parasites do, and their (entirely natural) nature means eating raw meat is a really bad idea.

There’s a lot of hippy-dippy holistic horse-hemorrhoid hooey hooted about the nature and niceness of natural. I know some otherwise quite intelligent people who are absolutely convinced that brown sugar (that’s less refined sugar with more industrial waste in it, or refined sugar with fake industrial waste added back into it) is more natural, and therefore better, than white sugar.

Of course some things are genuinely natural. Leprosy for example, or rabies.

Nature is a mother.

Weapons aside, if something artificial, (say dioxin, thalidomide, radioiodine from a melting nuclear reactor, anthropogenic greenhouse gas) harms you, its likely to be an accident. In nature, its likley to be elegantly and precisely designed for the job.

Nature is a mother of invention.

If, by bad luck or poor judgement, you find yourself alone in the sea with a big, interested shark, that’s an intensely natural and visceral experience, but it’s perhaps not much nicer than, say, being targeted by a Hellfire missile.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: kschachn

What are you talking about? I've never even used the words "parasite"


Think that was me. Sorry to intrude on The Great Grape Debate, but the thing is, interesting observation though it is, in the big picture, grapes don’t matter.

Parasites do, and their (entirely natural) nature means eating raw meat is a really bad idea.

There’s a lot of hippy-dippy holistic horse-hemorrhoid hooey hooted about the nature and niceness of natural. I know some otherwise quite intelligent people who are absolutely convinced that brown sugar (that’s less refined sugar with more industrial waste in it, or refined sugar with fake industrial waste added back into it) is more natural, and therefore better, than white sugar.

Of course some things are genuinely natural. Leprosy for example, or rabies.

Nature is a mother.

Weapons aside, if something artificial, (say dioxin, thalidomide, radioiodine from a melting nuclear reactor, anthropogenic greenhouse gas) harms you, its likely to be an accident. In nature, its likley to be elegantly and precisely designed for the job.

Nature is a mother of invention.

If, by bad luck or poor judgement, you find yourself alone in the sea with a big, interested shark, that’s an intensely natural and visceral experience, but it’s perhaps not much nicer than, say, being targeted by a Hellfire missile.


good post.
 
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