Question for Pet Owners - Raw Food Diet for Pets?

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
After years of trial and error, I've found the best solution for me and my pets....is to feed raw.

I've went from average store dog food (dry and wet)....to expensive natural and no-grain food. While the higher end dog foods improved my pets overall health when compared to the cheap ones, the biggest and most noticable improvement came when I started feeding a raw diet. My dogs digestion issues, energy, appetite, skin, and overall health improved markedly. Not even the best packaged dog food can compare to a properly formulated raw diet. It's like night and day. I even purchased an electric meat grinder to help me prepare and then freeze my dogs food. They get a huge variety of meats (beef, pork, chicken, fish, organs, and game), whole raw egg with shell, a small amount of blueberries, and kale or spinach. The chicken is WHOLE....bones and all.

I would say that any cat or dog would benefit greatly from such a diet. Just be sure to do a lot of research about the specific needs of your pets and follow a raw diet formulation that is recommended per reputable websites dedicated to these diets.


Wild critters don't typically eat the shell. How fine do you grind the chicken bones?

In all other regards your dog eats healthier than 99% of the people on the planet.


Many animals DO eat the shell. And if a raw egg is given to a canine (whole)...they will eat the entire item. The calcium in the shell is exceptionally good for them. And while I grind up my chicken bones fine enough to be swallowed whole, a dog can be given a raw chicken leg or larger and be fine with it digestive wise. That's what they would eat in the wild. Chewing and crunching up bones is good for canines. It's when they are COOKED that the bone becomes dangerous.
A lot of info is available online about raw canine diets. I don't get as "raw" and wild with my feeding as some folks do though. But it's surprising what dogs can eat and do very well on health wise.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Would uncooked meats be dangerous to ingest?


It would be best to introduce a small portion to begin with so that the correct baceterial flora have a chance to become established. A suggestion would be to mix it with the regular diet for the first weeks while slightly increasing the ratio.

This would be particularly important with an older dog.

I would not feed raw pork ever and I would avoid wild game unless cooked.
I would also avoid raw rabbit either domestic or wild.

But there is still much advantage to lightly cooked meats and less downside risk. Salmon is a great dog food.

Is your dog already on a de-wormer?


One should not mix z dry kibble with raw food. It can cause serious intestinal issues. And a canine can and do eat raw pork in many raw diets 100% free of any harm. A canine digestive system is built to deal with things that would kill a human.

 

[IndyIan]

Our male dog used to eat eggs whole, shell and all, but that was when he was under 2 and in eat everything fast mode. Now they all carefully crack the top of the shell and slurp everything out. Big bones disappear into them though, after they've crunched them up but its still surprising how fast they can get them down without problems.
We used to do raw but now have moved to fairly cheap dry food(purina) mostly just for the ease of feeding it, and I haven't noticed a difference in health or coat or anything else. Our one dog still has the same skin problems she had when we tried raw, and our male seems to thrive on anything he fits into his mouth. Dry food doesn't provoke as many fights I guess, so its clear they don't like it as much, but they get lots of eggs and the odd time we'll get them a raw meat treat so life isn't too bad on the farm...

 

[andrewg]

As a treat I will go to one of our local asian market and buy raw duck heads, turkey necks, and chicken feet. They LOVE them. You can hear them happily crunching away!

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Would uncooked meats be dangerous to ingest?


It would be best to introduce a small portion to begin with so that the correct baceterial flora have a chance to become established. A suggestion would be to mix it with the regular diet for the first weeks while slightly increasing the ratio.

This would be particularly important with an older dog.

I would not feed raw pork ever and I would avoid wild game unless cooked.
I would also avoid raw rabbit either domestic or wild.

But there is still much advantage to lightly cooked meats and less downside risk. Salmon is a great dog food.

Is your dog already on a de-wormer?


One should not mix z dry kibble with raw food. It can cause serious intestinal issues. And a canine can and do eat raw pork in many raw diets 100% free of any harm. A canine digestive system is built to deal with things that would kill a human.


I often find people who choose such fad diets as the latest "Raw" are difdicult to reason with because they are "true believers" and deny common wisdom and good science.

This entire concept of returning to the caveman diet is like those that only consume raw dairy products...they are always 100% right about their dietary choices until they suffer from Campylobacter, Shiga E. Coli or Salmonella.

Its particularly troubling when they bring their kids and pets along.

Fine to eat raw pork?

Trichinosis comes to mind. Its debilitating for months and most carnivores in the wild have it.

Ever had Toxoplasmosis? Not fun.

Howabout Tuleremia? Also not fun.

Nothing like one of these diseases introduced to an older dog with a weakened immune system and sending it to an early painful grave as a result of a fad.

Cheers

 

[andrewg]

ArcticDriver,

Seems to me that you are the one that has difficulty accepting reason. And you seem to be confusing human diet trends (or to use your phrase..."fad"diets) with canine ones. While a dog being fed a raw diet is indeed a fairly new concept (oddly), I find it odd that you seem to assume that dogs somehow belong on a pre-packaged, processed, cooked, canned and/or kibbled diet. Why do you think that is better than raw? While it may be adequate to maintain a canine, far more nutrition is extracted from a properly balanced raw diet than is even remotely attainable from 'traditional' dog foods. That to me is "common wisdom". Dogs are animals. Carnivorous animals. They have digestive tracts naturally designed to consume meat IN IT'S PUREST FORM. That is....killed and eaten. I've never seen a pack of canines start a campfire and cook a bird or dead deer before consuming it....have you?
Can dogs eat raw pork? Certainly they can. Do they get ill from it? Well, considering canines eat sometimes partially rotting flesh that has been sitting in the sun for days.....do you really think that human grade pork is going to cause a dog harm? Tens of thousands of people are feeding raw diets (including pork) with ZERO increase in food illnesses.
You should expand your knowledge a bit and do some serious raw diet related reading that is not biased for or against the subject. A lot of good information is out there. Labeling something you disagree with as a "fad diet" with "difficult to reason with" folks that are just "true believers" is rather insulting.

 

[kschachn]

Canines are not carnivores they are omnivores. Their metabolism is like humans, not felines. And their teeth are different.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Canines are not carnivores they are omnivores. Their metabolism is like humans, not felines. And their teeth are different.


Truth be told, canines are primarily and almost exclusively carnivores. Yes, since they will and do occasionally eat vegetable matter, you could say they are omnivores technically. However, they do not thrive nor require vegetable matter in the diet at all. But the vast majority of a wild canines diet is meat. Without it being the majority of the diet, health conditions deteriorate. The whole omnivore/carnivore question is currently a fairly debatable question. Of course, all the major pet food makers (Purina, Hill's, etc.) say canines are omnivores because most of the food they sell contains large amounts of grain and fillers. Funny thing though is that being never shy of making a buck...they also provide all-meat recipe products for sale. Rather indicative of what the bottom line is for them.

Canine metabolism is like a humans? Gotta vehemently disagree with that one.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I'm interested in hearing opinions from pet owners as to whether or not they observed a marked improvement in their pet's coat sheen and less dander after putting the animal on raw pet food. My cat's coat is not too bad but he has a bad dander problem that veterinarian just feels is allergy based and referred me to a pet allergist veterinarian who's fee is ridiculous high to run the tests.


How often do you brush him? Brushing should help evenly distribute the natural oils in his coat for a nice sheen. The dander comes from him licking himself when he takes baths. A daily brush, at least initially should help with the dander as well. Or you could just vacuum him, j/k.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I give my cat a "bath" once a week with cat bath wipes. I brush her really good first before her bath,brush her teeth,and then wipe her down really good. I clean her face,ears,and eyes every day too.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Truth be told, canines are primarily and almost exclusively carnivores. Yes, since they will and do occasionally eat vegetable matter, you could say they are omnivores technically. However, they do not thrive nor require vegetable matter in the diet at all. But the vast majority of a wild canines diet is meat. Without it being the majority of the diet, health conditions deteriorate. The whole omnivore/carnivore question is currently a fairly debatable question. Of course, all the major pet food makers (Purina, Hill's, etc.) say canines are omnivores because most of the food they sell contains large amounts of grain and fillers. Funny thing though is that being never shy of making a buck...they also provide all-meat recipe products for sale. Rather indicative of what the bottom line is for them.

Canine metabolism is like a humans? Gotta vehemently disagree with that one.

Well you can vehemently disagree if you like, but the biochemistry of a strict carnivore (felines) is different than for an omnivore like humans and canines. Felines actually make use of some of their body proteins in the Krebs cycle and unlike humans and canines are unable to tolerate low protein intake. It's been a while since I looked at it in one of my biochemistry classes but felines cannot survive on a plant-based diet whereas humans and canines can. Our metabolic pathways are far more similar than either one is compared to a strict carnivore such as a feline. Felines require a high protein animal-based diet whereas humans and canines do not.

You mention that the canine diet requirements is debatable, but this only seems to be in the context of sellers of raw diets for pets. It's not debatable in terms of their metabolic processes.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
That cats morbidly obese.



This one he just looks more big than obese... well at least not morbid obese, LoL. (tiles are 12")

 

[Benzadmiral]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Here's what I buy Kiki.


Rachael Ray is getting to look like it's diet time herself.

 

[Benzadmiral]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
That cats morbidly obese.



This one he just looks more big than obese... well at least not morbid obese, LoL. (tiles are 12")



LoneRanger, he does look a little out of proportion. By which I mean his midsection is quite a bit wider than his head and legs would suggest. Cutting back on the portions, maybe to 2 feedings a day, might work well for him in the long run.

My two feline thugs: The big black one is 14-15 lbs. and not fat; his body, legs, head, and tail are all longer than average, his bones really are big, and he's in good proportion. The other is 11-12 lbs., and his breed, the Siberian, tends to have barrel-shaped bodies and chunky legs as well as a triple coat. So in pics he looks pudgy -- but his vet has never warned me about obesity.

(Years ago, when at age 8 my big red Maine Coon mix hit 16 lbs. from his normal 14, his vet gave me a booklet on feline obesity. Embarrassed the heck out of me. Didn't bother him, of course, he just hated the diet. He lived to be 16.5 years old . . . so I did the right thing.)

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Rachael Ray is getting to look like it's diet time herself.

Heh, well a raw meat diet will help with that.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Truth be told, canines are primarily and almost exclusively carnivores. Yes, since they will and do occasionally eat vegetable matter, you could say they are omnivores technically. However, they do not thrive nor require vegetable matter in the diet at all. But the vast majority of a wild canines diet is meat. Without it being the majority of the diet, health conditions deteriorate. The whole omnivore/carnivore question is currently a fairly debatable question. Of course, all the major pet food makers (Purina, Hill's, etc.) say canines are omnivores because most of the food they sell contains large amounts of grain and fillers. Funny thing though is that being never shy of making a buck...they also provide all-meat recipe products for sale. Rather indicative of what the bottom line is for them.

Canine metabolism is like a humans? Gotta vehemently disagree with that one.

Well you can vehemently disagree if you like, but the biochemistry of a strict carnivore (felines) is different than for an omnivore like humans and canines. Felines actually make use of some of their body proteins in the Krebs cycle and unlike humans and canines are unable to tolerate low protein intake. It's been a while since I looked at it in one of my biochemistry classes but felines cannot survive on a plant-based diet whereas humans and canines can. Our metabolic pathways are far more similar than either one is compared to a strict carnivore such as a feline. Felines require a high protein animal-based diet whereas humans and canines do not.

You mention that the canine diet requirements is debatable, but this only seems to be in the context of sellers of raw diets for pets. It's not debatable in terms of their metabolic processes.


Your the first person that I've I've encountered that believes canines and humans have a very similar metabolism. You're basically saying that a canine cane eat like a human and do fine. THAT is simply not true at all. While I do agree that strictly speaking, a canine has omnivorous eating habits....but you'd would be false is assuming that meat isn't the most vital part of the diet for them. Strict or not...canines need meat to thrive and have no need at all for vegetable matter....nor the carbs associated with it. Grains are NOT needed in any way for a canine diet either. They are potentially more harmful.
Saying that humans and dogs have similar metabolism and dietary needs is a stretch to say the least. It's not true.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Your the first person that I've I've encountered that believes canines and humans have a very similar metabolism. You're basically saying that a canine cane eat like a human and do fine. THAT is simply not true at all. While I do agree that strictly speaking, a canine has omnivorous eating habits....but you'd would be false is assuming that meat isn't the most vital part of the diet for them. Strict or not...canines need meat to thrive and have no need at all for vegetable matter....nor the carbs associated with it. Grains are NOT needed in any way for a canine diet either. They are potentially more harmful.
Saying that humans and dogs have similar metabolism and dietary needs is a stretch to say the least. It's not true.

Canines can, like humans, survive on a strict plant based diet which would be lethal to a carnivore like a feline. It is nutritionally impossible for a feline to assimilate required amino acids from a plant diet but it is possible for canines and humans to do so. That's not to say it is easy to do so, but that comment also applies to humans. It is far easier to have a nutritionally complete diet if omnivores eat meat but that's not the same thing as being impossible. Unlike felines, canines (and humans) do not require animal protein to survive. You can state the contrary but it doesn't make it true.

Perhaps you've been spending more time on websites that promote certain ideologies rather than in biochemistry texts that describe how the metabolic processes of omnivores and carnivores differ. Like them you seem to have a deep need to believe what they promote regardless of the actual biochemical makeup of the two species.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Here's what I buy Kiki.


Rachael Ray is getting to look like it's diet time herself.



Hey like they say,"Never trust a skinny cook!!" haha!!

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Your the first person that I've I've encountered that believes canines and humans have a very similar metabolism. You're basically saying that a canine cane eat like a human and do fine. THAT is simply not true at all. While I do agree that strictly speaking, a canine has omnivorous eating habits....but you'd would be false is assuming that meat isn't the most vital part of the diet for them. Strict or not...canines need meat to thrive and have no need at all for vegetable matter....nor the carbs associated with it. Grains are NOT needed in any way for a canine diet either. They are potentially more harmful.
Saying that humans and dogs have similar metabolism and dietary needs is a stretch to say the least. It's not true.

Canines can, like humans, survive on a strict plant based diet which would be lethal to a carnivore like a feline. It is nutritionally impossible for a feline to assimilate required amino acids from a plant diet but it is possible for canines and humans to do so. That's not to say it is easy to do so, but that comment also applies to humans. It is far easier to have a nutritionally complete diet if omnivores eat meat but that's not the same thing as being impossible. Unlike felines, canines (and humans) do not require animal protein to survive. You can state the contrary but it doesn't make it true.

Perhaps you've been spending more time on websites that promote certain ideologies rather than in biochemistry texts that describe how the metabolic processes of omnivores and carnivores differ. Like them you seem to have a deep need to believe what they promote regardless of the actual biochemical makeup of the two species.


Sounds to me like you are stuck in the past or at the least some rudimentary college course taught twenty years ago. Maybe you should pursue some continued study on the subject? The fact that you aren't even aware of the current debate going on among those far more knowledgeable than us, on the carnivore/omnivore subject regarding canines, is evidence of a lack of current discourse. Science isn't static you know. Just because you had some classes in certain subjects doesn't end the matter....thought and continued knowledge evolves. A debate DOES exist.

Most wolf researchers have concluded that wolves are carnivores. Systemic observation has shown this to be true. Dogs have adapted through domestication to cope with mans diet. This dos not mean that they aren't carnivores. If you'd studied the coefficient of fermentation and how canines and felines are so similar in GI assimilation, you would grasp that dogs are more similar to carnivores (cats as an example) than omnivores. The canine teeth and the structure of such is another biological giveaway. And interestingly, canines AND felines BOTH do not produce salivary amylase (needed to convert starches and cellulose into sugars to be absorbed by the intestines). Omnivores secrete amylase in their saliva, canines DO NOT. Canines also have a relative inability to convert plant based Omega-3 fatty acids into EPA and DHA....another biological sign of a carnivore.

Yes, canines can live on a diet containing rice and corn in higher amounts. BUT...they WILL NOT thrive on such a diet. This taxes the pancreas as the canine struggles to derive nutrition. Many involved in canine study believe that dogs are a sort of hybrid or "scavenger" carnivore. Felines are more of a true carnivore....of course.

PERHAPS you need to get back to the books (so to speak) before you label others. Marginalizing people you disagree with is a sure sign of not just arrogance....but weekness.

 

[Shannow]

I'll back kschachn on this debate.

Note, he hasn't advocated grains in dogs...