Purolator is still listening- Engineering report

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
3. Restriction Test - A low pressure flow of 3GPM of 30W oil at 180F is passed through the filter and the deltaP is measured.

My filter passed the first two tests, the Restriction Test was then discussed. A typical value is 8PSI but my filter was highly restricted at 23PSI.

Since this is higher than the built-in bypass valve, he suggested that the filter was probably running in bypass mode for some period of time. (I forgot to ask if it was torn because I was trying to write down all the data, but the question may have been pointless considering the impulse test.)

The filter was then cut and a high level of metallic contamination was found in the media, but no sludge. They no longer have the filter (their fault, for letting this drag on so long) but offered to test the torn filter if I can find it to send in.


Wow, a delta-p of 23 PSI with only 3 GPM of 30W oil at 180 deg F is pretty bad. I'm assuming the media was basically totally clogged and if so that means the bypass valve isn't capable of flowing 3 GPM without creating lots of delta-p. That's not a good thing really. Any more info from Purolator on why they think that filter has such high delta-p?

Here's some data Purolator provided a while back on another PureOne, and the delta-p was really low.
PureOne Flow vs Delta-P Test Data

Originally Posted By: HangFire
The Director of Engineering pointed out a few facts about the PureOne. One, the PureOne is a 99% at 20 microns filter. I pointed out that this published data is NOT clear on their marketing information and the general opinion on the boards is that the Ultra is better and the PureOne is something less than 99%.


I really don't recall anyone saying that PureOnes have less than 99.9% @ 20 microns efficiency, EXCEPT for the few that are rated at 99.9% @ 40 microns.

Originally Posted By: HangFire
So I asked, what about the Classic, since that is where the majority of media failures have been reported? After some back and forth, it was clear that Marketing was aware of the Classic problem and the tear spreadsheet, but Engineering was not. The spreadsheet is being forwarded to Engineering as I write.


Actaully, the tear record speardsheet has MORE PureOnes failing than Classics. 28 PureOnes vs 17 Classics.

Tear Sreadsheet

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Shrubitup
Why did marketing keep the tear-O-lator issue from engineering this long? As if engineering exists in a vacuum/cave and cannot discover this on their own.


Yeah if engineering is JUST NOW hearing about the problem, someone has SERIOUSLY dropped the ball. Also, does engineering live in a small cave in North Korea with no internet access, no phone, and no television? This is THEIR product. They should be in tune with common reports on the internet.


Yeah, that amazed me too. I mean come on, Engineering should be the FIRST department to hear there might be a design or QA issue! Crazy stuff.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Yeah if engineering is JUST NOW hearing about the problem, someone has SERIOUSLY dropped the ball. Also, does engineering live in a small cave in North Korea with no internet access, no phone, and no television? This is THEIR product. They should be in tune with common reports on the internet.


Seriously, outside BITOG, where is this all over the internet?

I am sure their engineers have a real life outside work and hanging on an oil filter subsection board of a oil forum is not on the top of their list.

As mentioned, their marketing department that would be more in tuned with social media and the internet dropped the ball.


I think some of their marketing shills hang out here trying to cover up the issue ... BUT it's their Engineers who should have their finger on the pulse of chat boards like this to see what's going on with their products.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Actaully, the tear record speardsheet has MORE PureOnes failing than Classics. 28 PureOnes vs 17 Classics.

Tear Sreadsheet



It's really 35, because Bosch = P1

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't believe your filter on a Honda Pilot was so full of metal it showed a 23psi pressure drop.


Yeah, I can't imagine either. The filter would have to be super jammed packed with metal to totally clog the filter. Having a delta-p of 23 PSI with that low of oil flow is horrible.

Purolator should test a brand new filter in the same flow test and tell HangFire what the delta-p is on that one for a baseline comparison. If a brand new one is high in delta-p, then the media is very restrictive.

And why is Purolator looking at changing the media now? Could be they finally realized just how brittle it is and it can't take any side stress at all, or maybe it's too restrictive now due to some change that has been made a while back?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina

Also, Test #3 should still have been done FIRST, since the first two tests stress the heck out of the media, and can prevent one from seeing how it really did in the field, a low-pressure initial check like #3 would be the first thing you do. Kinda weird if they did it in HangFire's order of listing, but we don't know I guess.


I agree that if they tested in the order HangFire showed, it might be possible that one of the first 2 tests might have damaged something internally which affected the flow test.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Wow, a delta-p of 23 PSI with only 3 GPM of 30W oil at 180 deg F is pretty bad. I'm assuming the media was basically totally clogged and if so that means the bypass valve isn't capable of flowing 3 GPM without creating lots of delta-p. That's not a good thing really. Any more info from Purolator on why they think that filter has such high delta-p?

D'oh! Again I was too busy writing all the facts and numbers to realize it should have been flowing at the bypass PSI and not the media PSI. He did mention a Mullen Burst test they can do to disconnected media. Instead of asking if that was done to my filter (which would explain the 23PSI), I asked why this was not offered to cut can complainers. That led into a different discussion on their warranty-based approach to consumer complaints.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Here's some data Purolator provided a while back on another PureOne, and the delta-p was really low.
PureOne Flow vs Delta-P Test Data
I really don't recall anyone saying that PureOnes have less than 99.9% @ 20 microns efficiency, EXCEPT for the few that are rated at 99.9% @ 40 microns.

That may be what I was thinking of- that's the rating for the non-canister filters. They stated that all PureOne's used the same filter media, but that may have really meant all PureOne Canister filters.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Actaully, the tear record speardsheet has MORE PureOnes failing than Classics. 28 PureOnes vs 17 Classics.

My memory may have failed me again... or perhaps there was a time when the spreadsheet had more Classics? Anyway, 17, that's enough failures that they should be aware of them!

 

[steveh]

For all the people that recommend running the Ultra for 3 OCI. How do you know what the delta-p is after 3 OCI? How do you know its not running in bypass? Maybe Wix knew what they were doing when they made the XP 50% @ 20 microns.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: steveh
For all the people that recommend running the Ultra for 3 OCI. How do you know what the delta-p is after 3 OCI? How do you know its not running in bypass? Maybe Wix knew what they were doing when they made the XP 50% @ 20 microns.
What is the difference between three 5K OCIs or one 15K OCI? Also, for those who perform UOAs, would that not show something out of the ordinary if there was a problem (I am assuming that you are suggesting the filter would be in permanent bypass?)?

These are valid questions with no malice intended.

 

[901Memphis]

If the filters were running in bypass then accompanying uoas would indicate elevated insolubles which is what shows up in extended intervals with lesser filters

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: steveh
For all the people that recommend running the Ultra for 3 OCI. How do you know what the delta-p is after 3 OCI? How do you know its not running in bypass? Maybe Wix knew what they were doing when they made the XP 50% @ 20 microns.


Valid question. Oil filter use periods are usually based on ISO 4548-12 testing for holding capacity, and what the manufacturer considers the nominal/typical debris generation rate of a typical engine on the road.

Of course you probably wouldn't want to use it that long on a super dirty engine. If an engine is really dirty inside and loads up an oil filter fast, then they should always be changed earlier than the maximum recommended use mileage. Cutting open filters and inspecting them for debris helps understand how much debris a particular engine is generating, and helps make a decision on what filter to use and how long to run it.

 

[Brybo86]

So I wish there was a way to send them all of our used filters and get them to honestly confirm that they are torn...

Better products through marketing?

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: Brybo86
Better products through marketing?

Better products through whiners & complainers. Imagine if nobody said anything, each person thinking "well my torn case is one-in-a-million". Purolator appears to be able to toss products out there, oblivious to what's happening. I've seen this happen before, they take a "no news is good news" approach, don't want to know, because if a problem is found, somebody at the company gets in trouble. They hide inside their little turtle shells of canister oil filters that few see inside of to find their engine-wearing flaws. (We should make cartridge oil filter mandatory.) A sick company.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ +1

 

[Festiva_Man]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't believe your filter on a Honda Pilot was so full of metal it showed a 23psi pressure drop. So I believe nothing they say after that. So much for dirt holding capacity. So now you have (according to them)a worn engine, a known torn Purolator Pure One filter, a statement they are looking closely at the situation, and some freebies. They need a bigger magnifying glass to look. Maybe all the metal shards your engine is shedding cut through the previous filter media. Contact Honda Motors.

Why? I just finished tearing apart a motor that threw some big end bearings and broke a connecting rod. Torn purolater filter that was completely clogged with metal. Bypass valve on these is a terrible, terrible design and not much oil can flow through it. Doesnt take much to crack the valve but it take like 60psi differential pressure to fully open it to the mere 1/8in it opens. If your filter clogs there is no way enough oil can get through that bypass valve when its cold. Ill start a thread about it tomorrow or next week.

 

[Sayjac]

Some practical observations on your post. It seems you approached M&H Puro in a reasonable methodical fashion, and were dealt with in the same manner.

Having used and posted pics of likely more than most here of the PL14610's since becoming a member, I'm less focused on the technical points of the lab tests than the practical anecdotal evidence of your tear.

As the link in your original PL14610 tear post doesn't work I link it HERE. Your torn PL14610 had 5 less pleats than any PL14610 that I've ever used and posted, 46 vs 51. That to me indicates a QC issue more than a media issue. Not saying the latter might not be 'some' factor in 'some anecdotes, but not convinced at least as far as your torn PL14610, that was/is the issue. Less media means a wider pleat spacing at the seam where the tears occur.

As I noted in your thread, I've never had a tear in a 51 pleat PL14610 used primarily on Hondas with some Nissan thrown in. The same goes for the variants like the AAP total grip 7317 which would be most similar to a Classic but slightly less efficient. My P1 anecdotes though, would be from earlier production than yours. It can be noted in the link that at least other member with a 51 pleat count had no tears either. Similar comments with pics are in your initial linked tear post.

As for efficiency ratings, addressing 'strictly' the spin on type, with the exception of the four smallest filters, P1 is rated 99.9%@20um. The four smallest which include the PL14610/14612 and their sae cousins 14476/14477 are rated 99.9%@40um. That is according to Puro box and Puro info regarding the four smallest filters. I have seen some of what I'll refer to based on reading, as dedicated purohaters, question the efficiency specs of the P1. I just consider the source.

As I suspected when you posted yesterday despite your thread title and detail, for some no efforts will be adequate. Ultimately it is your opinion that matters and will determine whether you use their filter products again.

As for the UOA, 'if' previous UOA tear anecdotes as related to insolubles are an indicator, nothing remarkable will be seen.

Thanks for posting and your efforts. Perhaps your title observation and post detail is an indication of Mann&Hummel addressing their ownership responsibilities.

As an aside, previously noting a loss of JA integrity factor, another added to the ignore list from this thread. Confident same as the one added from another recent puro thread.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Seriously, outside BITOG, where is this all over the internet?

That may be a bit much, but it is out there, to the point that I've had to correct people in the non-BITOG world that using a Mann for a German application is a completely different issue.

I'm glad of what I read in the original post. At the very least, it shows why they need an intact filter to test. A dissected filter isn't exactly useless to them, but plenty of testing cannot be done with such a filter.

 

[jk_636]

OP: thank you so much for the in depth update of your experience with MH Purolator. So many people spend so much time bad mouthing this company, but It seems to me that they really do have a vested interest in your experience and they want to make it right. I think this was definitely the right way to go about handling your experience with torn filters and it looks like the customer service and engineering department will make it right. Please keep us updated. I would like to see where this case ends up. I have a feeling a lot of free filters, oil and technical data are coming your way! Kudos.


Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: bubbatime

Yeah if engineering is JUST NOW hearing about the problem, someone has SERIOUSLY dropped the ball. Also, does engineering live in a small cave in North Korea with no internet access, no phone, and no television? This is THEIR product. They should be in tune with common reports on the internet.


Seriously, outside BITOG, where is this all over the internet?

I am sure their engineers have a real life outside work and hanging on an oil filter subsection board of a oil forum is not on the top of their list.

As mentioned, their marketing department that would be more in tuned with social media and the internet dropped the ball.


I think some of their marketing shills hang out here trying to cover up the issue ... BUT it's their Engineers who should have their finger on the pulse of chat boards like this to see what's going on with their products.


Really? Please enlighten us on who that might be? The only person I know here on this website who works for a filter manufacturer is motorking. There are no marketing shills from Purolator on this website. No one outside this forum will ever take it seriously if it is just a bunch of grown men spreading rumors about the others because they don't agree with their position. Get over it zee...it has gone on long enough. The only reason I can see someone aggressively "pointing out" or "exposing" people that may work for a company you dislike would be to cover your own tracks since they are the "competition".

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
Better products through marketing?

Better products through whiners & complainers. Imagine if nobody said anything, each person thinking "well my torn case is one-in-a-million". Purolator appears to be able to toss products out there, oblivious to what's happening. I've seen this happen before, they take a "no news is good news" approach, don't want to know, because if a problem is found, somebody at the company gets in trouble. They hide inside their little turtle shells of canister oil filters that few see inside of to find their engine-wearing flaws. (We should make cartridge oil filter mandatory.) A sick company.


Bull corn. You have no reason to believe any of that nonsense nor do you have any proof to validate it.

It isn't better through whining and complaining, it is better through information and education. Whining and complaining gets you nowhere. That would be why so many people didn't hear back from Purolator, or got bland and generic responses, while the OP is actually making progress by objectively working with the company to inform them of a potential problem and let them find a solution. Not just cutting open oil filters with a HF exhaust pipe cutter and screaming about "tears". Everyone laughs at CptBarkey, but he has always maintained the position that if you are concerned you should send your filters to the manufacturer and have them professionally analyzed. You all laughed and called him a nutcase. The OP did it and got positive results. With all due respect, some of you are a bunch of hypocrites.

Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I don't believe your filter on a Honda Pilot was so full of metal it showed a 23psi pressure drop. So I believe nothing they say after that. So much for dirt holding capacity. So now you have (according to them)a worn engine, a known torn Purolator Pure One filter, a statement they are looking closely at the situation, and some freebies. They need a bigger magnifying glass to look. Maybe all the metal shards your engine is shedding cut through the previous filter media. Contact Honda Motors.

Why? I just finished tearing apart a motor that threw some big end bearings and broke a connecting rod. Torn purolater filter that was completely clogged with metal. Bypass valve on these is a terrible, terrible design and not much oil can flow through it. Doesnt take much to crack the valve but it take like 60psi differential pressure to fully open it to the mere 1/8in it opens. If your filter clogs there is no way enough oil can get through that bypass valve when its cold. Ill start a thread about it tomorrow or next week.


And you blame this destruction on the filter...that was clogged...,and would have essentially been in bypass the whole time? Oh please tell me you have photos to back this up. You do realize how improbable a one time occurrence of a clogged filter could cause such catastrophic damage right? Much more probable that long term neglect was the leading factor here and not a torn filter....

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I think some of their marketing shills hang out here trying to cover up the issue ... BUT it's their Engineers who should have their finger on the pulse of chat boards like this to see what's going on with their products.


Really? Please enlighten us on who that might be? The only person I know here on this website who works for a filter manufacturer is motorking. There are no marketing shills from Purolator on this website. No one outside this forum will ever take it seriously if it is just a bunch of grown men spreading rumors about the others because they don't agree with their position. Get over it zee...it has gone on long enough. The only reason I can see someone aggressively "pointing out" or "exposing" people that may work for a company you dislike would be to cover your own tracks since they are the "competition".


LoL, yeah really. Just in case you don't know it, you (and a few others) constantly accuse a few members posting here of working for Fram just because they don't have anything good to say about Purolator. So maybe you should "get over it", meaning you should accept that people will bad mouth a product that is inferior and is prone to failure. That's just how it works ... people don't want to use a product that has known problems, and obviously Purolator has problems right now. And as I've said a few times, IF they can get their act back together and prove to the consumer that things are fixed and back on track, THEN people might start using their products again. Many companies over the years have vaporized due to the lack of quality/value in their products. Trying to sell defective products is the first step to derailment.

I hope Purolator does open their eyes and focus on issues that are obviously being seen by the consumer. If they don't they will wither away and vaporize with time. I know how this should be handled internally by a company that designs and manufactures products, and so far I haven't seen much indication that anything is going on except for this post that HangFire has posted - which many here appreciate. So, time will tell if Purolator can pull this one out or not.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I think some of their marketing shills hang out here trying to cover up the issue ... BUT it's their Engineers who should have their finger on the pulse of chat boards like this to see what's going on with their products.


Really? Please enlighten us on who that might be? The only person I know here on this website who works for a filter manufacturer is motorking. There are no marketing shills from Purolator on this website. No one outside this forum will ever take it seriously if it is just a bunch of grown men spreading rumors about the others because they don't agree with their position. Get over it zee...it has gone on long enough. The only reason I can see someone aggressively "pointing out" or "exposing" people that may work for a company you dislike would be to cover your own tracks since they are the "competition".


LoL, yeah really. Just in case you don't know it, you (and a few others) constantly accuse a few members posting here of working for Fram just because they don't have anything good to say about Purolator. So maybe you should "get over it", meaning you should accept that people will bad mouth a product that is inferior and is prone to failure. That's just how it works ... people don't want to use a product that has known problems, and obviously Purolator has problems right now. And as I've said a few times, IF they can get their act back together and prove to the consumer that things are fixed and back on track, THEN people might start using their products again. Many companies over the years have vaporized due to the lack of quality/value in their products. Trying to sell defective products is the first step to derailment.

I hope Purolator does open their eyes and focus on issues that are obviously being seen by the consumer. If they don't they will wither away and vaporize with time. I know how this should be handled internally by a company that designs and manufactures products, and so far I haven't seen much indication that anything is going on except for this post that HangFire has posted - which many here appreciate. So, time will tell if Purolator can pull this one out or not.


How many filters didn't that rant get you? Or is it based on a point system?

How about that Fram Ultra? I hear that is a real rock catcher.....