Slight correction. The 4.3 is the V-6, not a V-8 but uses the same filter as the V-8.
PF63 vs PF48 - How much more capacity?
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Just checked the 4.3 V-6. It didn’t use a XG10060 so don’t include it in this exercise. However, the 4.8 V-8 did.
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Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
I'm saying not enough to expect any added longevity to your vehicles life!
Maybe we can approach it another way. Why did GM change it’s filter design in 2014, going from the short version to the long version. All the truck V-8’s except for the 6.0 liter got the long version in 2104 (according to Fram) and they still use the long version to present.
According to Fram, the 6.0 liter in the 3/4 tons still specs the short version. Wasn’t 2014 the year GM went to the Gen V design with direct injection and an improved AFM system?
SF
I'm saying not enough to expect any added longevity to your vehicles life!
Maybe we can approach it another way. Why did GM change it’s filter design in 2014, going from the short version to the long version. All the truck V-8’s except for the 6.0 liter got the long version in 2104 (according to Fram) and they still use the long version to present.
According to Fram, the 6.0 liter in the 3/4 tons still specs the short version. Wasn’t 2014 the year GM went to the Gen V design with direct injection and an improved AFM system?
SF
A thing to note is that the 6.0 liter in the 3/4 ton does not have direct injection or AFM.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency.
I've never seen any formal test data that correlates filter efficiency to different steady flow rates through the filter. Would be an interesting test.
ZeeOSix - Isn't this the basis for bypass filters? However, the flow rate through a bypass filter would be maybe less than 0.5 GPM. I would guess the DP across a bypass filter would be rather low and not that much difference between the long and the short filter in a full flow setup. I think an official test would be interesting. DP vs flow rate for the short and the long filter.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency.
I've never seen any formal test data that correlates filter efficiency to different steady flow rates through the filter. Would be an interesting test.
ZeeOSix - Isn't this the basis for bypass filters? However, the flow rate through a bypass filter would be maybe less than 0.5 GPM. I would guess the DP across a bypass filter would be rather low and not that much difference between the long and the short filter in a full flow setup. I think an official test would be interesting. DP vs flow rate for the short and the long filter.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: CT8
Bigger is better but will there ever be a noticible difference in engine life?
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency...
But does it translate into longer engine life? Not (necessarily) really.
If the longer filter has slower flow would that decrease my oil pressure? If it does would I even notice?
Originally Posted By: CT8
Bigger is better but will there ever be a noticible difference in engine life?
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency...
But does it translate into longer engine life? Not (necessarily) really.
If the longer filter has slower flow would that decrease my oil pressure? If it does would I even notice?
Originally Posted By: Mossyoakglock
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: CT8
Bigger is better but will there ever be a noticible difference in engine life?
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency...
But does it translate into longer engine life? Not (necessarily) really.
If the longer filter has slower flow would that decrease my oil pressure? If it does would I even notice?
The longer filter should have a lower DP than the shorter filter. Therefore if the pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, you should experience an increase in oil pressure. The positive displacement oil pump will produce the same amount of flow vs RPM regardless of which oil filter is used.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: CT8
Bigger is better but will there ever be a noticible difference in engine life?
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency...
But does it translate into longer engine life? Not (necessarily) really.
If the longer filter has slower flow would that decrease my oil pressure? If it does would I even notice?
The longer filter should have a lower DP than the shorter filter. Therefore if the pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, you should experience an increase in oil pressure. The positive displacement oil pump will produce the same amount of flow vs RPM regardless of which oil filter is used.
So the Napa Gold 7045, Fram XG 10575 and AcDelco PF63 can all be safely run on a 2011 Cehvy 1500 with the 4.8 Vortec that normally calls for the shorter PF48? I just want to be sure cause I'd like to use the longer version on my buddies truck.
Following is an excerpt from an article on Gen 5 Chev engines that came out in 2014, the same year as the longer filter. You can easily see GM concentrated on the entire oiling system.
Advanced oiling system: the oiling system incorporates a new variable-displacement oil pump that enables more efficient oil delivery, based the engine’s operating conditions. Its dual-pressure control enables operation at a very efficient oil pressure at lower rpm, and then delivers higher pressure at higher engine speeds to provide a more robust lubrication. Oil capacity has been increased to six quarts for the 4.3L V6 and eight quarts for the V8 engines. All engines use GM’s Dexos oil for increased fuel efficiency and longer oil life, and V8s are engineered to use 0W/20 oil to improve lubrication and reduce friction. All trucks also feature GM’s oil life monitor, which better protects engines by recommending oil changes based on actual engine operating conditions and can save owners’ money by avoiding unnecessary oil changes.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/l86/#ixzz53uFaGmM5
Advanced oiling system: the oiling system incorporates a new variable-displacement oil pump that enables more efficient oil delivery, based the engine’s operating conditions. Its dual-pressure control enables operation at a very efficient oil pressure at lower rpm, and then delivers higher pressure at higher engine speeds to provide a more robust lubrication. Oil capacity has been increased to six quarts for the 4.3L V6 and eight quarts for the V8 engines. All engines use GM’s Dexos oil for increased fuel efficiency and longer oil life, and V8s are engineered to use 0W/20 oil to improve lubrication and reduce friction. All trucks also feature GM’s oil life monitor, which better protects engines by recommending oil changes based on actual engine operating conditions and can save owners’ money by avoiding unnecessary oil changes.
Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/l86/#ixzz53uFaGmM5
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency...
But does it translate into longer engine life? Not (necessarily) really.
The larger filter is going to flow more oil. If you fill up an old wine barrel full of water and pull out your Smith&Wesson, the more holes you put in it the faster the water drains out.
Short answer? Maybe... the larger filter should have slower flow through the media since there's more surface area.... thus increasing it's efficiency...
But does it translate into longer engine life? Not (necessarily) really.
The larger filter is going to flow more oil. If you fill up an old wine barrel full of water and pull out your Smith&Wesson, the more holes you put in it the faster the water drains out.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
The longer filter should have a lower DP than the shorter filter. Therefore if the pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, you should experience an increase in oil pressure. The positive displacement oil pump will produce the same amount of flow vs RPM regardless of which oil filter is used.
If the oil pressure sensor is downstream of the filter, the pressure change due to filter resistance will not be noticed because the pressure at that point is only a function of the oil flow and engine oiling system flow resistance. The filter's resistance can not be detected by the pressure sensor located after the filter.
But if the pressure sensor was located before the filter then the filter becomes part of the downstream system the sensor is reading.
The only time you can see the effect of different flowing filters with the pressure sensor located after the filter is when the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief. That's because at that condition the flow is dependant on the relief pressure setting and not the pump forcing 100% of the flow through the filter and engine. So if Filter A shows lower oil pressure at redline (pump in pressure relief) vs Filter B, then that means Filter A is more flow restrictive (has more delta-p) than Filter B.
The longer filter should have a lower DP than the shorter filter. Therefore if the pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, you should experience an increase in oil pressure. The positive displacement oil pump will produce the same amount of flow vs RPM regardless of which oil filter is used.
If the oil pressure sensor is downstream of the filter, the pressure change due to filter resistance will not be noticed because the pressure at that point is only a function of the oil flow and engine oiling system flow resistance. The filter's resistance can not be detected by the pressure sensor located after the filter.
But if the pressure sensor was located before the filter then the filter becomes part of the downstream system the sensor is reading.
The only time you can see the effect of different flowing filters with the pressure sensor located after the filter is when the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief. That's because at that condition the flow is dependant on the relief pressure setting and not the pump forcing 100% of the flow through the filter and engine. So if Filter A shows lower oil pressure at redline (pump in pressure relief) vs Filter B, then that means Filter A is more flow restrictive (has more delta-p) than Filter B.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
The longer filter should have a lower DP than the shorter filter. Therefore if the pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, you should experience an increase in oil pressure. The positive displacement oil pump will produce the same amount of flow vs RPM regardless of which oil filter is used.
If the oil pressure sensor is downstream of the filter, the pressure change due to filter resistance will not be noticed because the pressure at that point is only a function of the oil flow and engine oiling system flow resistance. The filter's resistance can not be detected by the pressure sensor located after the filter.
But if the pressure sensor was located before the filter then the filter becomes part of the downstream system the sensor is reading.
The only time you can see the effect of different flowing filters with the pressure sensor located after the filter is when the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief. That's because at that condition the flow is dependant on the relief pressure setting and not the pump forcing 100% of the flow through the filter and engine. So if Filter A shows lower oil pressure at redline (pump in pressure relief) vs Filter B, then that means Filter A is more flow restrictive (has more delta-p) than Filter B.
ZeeOSix - Thanks for the correction. I must have had a brain phart!!!
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
The longer filter should have a lower DP than the shorter filter. Therefore if the pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, you should experience an increase in oil pressure. The positive displacement oil pump will produce the same amount of flow vs RPM regardless of which oil filter is used.
If the oil pressure sensor is downstream of the filter, the pressure change due to filter resistance will not be noticed because the pressure at that point is only a function of the oil flow and engine oiling system flow resistance. The filter's resistance can not be detected by the pressure sensor located after the filter.
But if the pressure sensor was located before the filter then the filter becomes part of the downstream system the sensor is reading.
The only time you can see the effect of different flowing filters with the pressure sensor located after the filter is when the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief. That's because at that condition the flow is dependant on the relief pressure setting and not the pump forcing 100% of the flow through the filter and engine. So if Filter A shows lower oil pressure at redline (pump in pressure relief) vs Filter B, then that means Filter A is more flow restrictive (has more delta-p) than Filter B.
ZeeOSix - Thanks for the correction. I must have had a brain phart!!!
I figured you knew it, just a "flip flop" moment - everyone does it. Thought I'd give a detailed explanation for others who don't know that the only way you can see a difference in filter restriction when the pressure sensor is after the filter is when you're near or at redline, and even then the oil pump may not hit presdure relief if the oil is too hot/thin.
Too bad vehicles didn't come from the factory with a pressure sensor before and after the filter for full monitoring, including delta-p across the filter.
Too bad vehicles didn't come from the factory with a pressure sensor before and after the filter for full monitoring, including delta-p across the filter.
It is all about money. A precision gauge might be $500-700 or even more. You need precision to see the DP which is small compared to the absolute oil pressure.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
It is all about money. A precision gauge might be $500-700 or even more. You need precision to see the DP which is small compared to the absolute oil pressure.
Wouldn't have to be very high precision. My 2002 Z06 read to 1 PSI. Put a sensor on both sides of the filter that read to 0.5 PSI and that would be all you really need. Delta-p just a simple software subtracting of P1 minus P2.
It is all about money. A precision gauge might be $500-700 or even more. You need precision to see the DP which is small compared to the absolute oil pressure.
Wouldn't have to be very high precision. My 2002 Z06 read to 1 PSI. Put a sensor on both sides of the filter that read to 0.5 PSI and that would be all you really need. Delta-p just a simple software subtracting of P1 minus P2.
Regarding the long filter (PF63) vs the short filter (PF48) or in Fram language, the long filter (10575) vs the short filter (10060), I did a a few quick calculations. Das-Peikko mentioned the actual filter in the shorter canister was only 2.375 " long. The length of the short canister itself, from the Fram catalog is 3.33 inches. That means the remaining length is for the spring and valve. So, 3.33" - 2.375" = 0.955". If you now assume the long canister has the same distance for the spring and valve you can take the length of the canister which is 4.06" from the Fram Catalog and subtract the 0.955" to get an actual filter length of 3.105. Take the long filter of 3.105 inches and divide by the short filter length which is 2.375, you get 1.3. Since the area of the filter is linear with length you can assume the long filter has 30% more area than the short filter. No big deal but if the filters cost almost the same, and there is nothing else detrimental about it, you might want to be using the long filter. Obviously the engineers had some reason to make the filter longer. Maybe it was just to get an extra 30% of filtering area.
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Originally Posted By: Mossyoakglock
... Since the filter is about an inch longer between the two (Depending on manufacturer), how does that translate to additional capacity? Are we talking 3 oz or more like 10 oz? That's the only piece of information that I could not find anywhere. ...
That should be an easy question to solve pretty accurately. Just calculate the cross-sectional area based on the diameter and can thickness, and multiply that area by the length difference to get the volume difference.
Pi×R×R×(L1-L2)=V
... Since the filter is about an inch longer between the two (Depending on manufacturer), how does that translate to additional capacity? Are we talking 3 oz or more like 10 oz? That's the only piece of information that I could not find anywhere. ...
That should be an easy question to solve pretty accurately. Just calculate the cross-sectional area based on the diameter and can thickness, and multiply that area by the length difference to get the volume difference.
Pi×R×R×(L1-L2)=V
For what it’s worth here are the two filters in the Fram version. Tough guards are not my favourite but the Ultra’s where in sealed packages so I could’t open them at the store.
Originally Posted By: das_peikko
The larger filter is going to flow more oil. If you fill up an old wine barrel full of water and pull out your Smith&Wesson, the more holes you put in it the faster the water drains out.
You are confusing total flow (bullet holes) versus flow for a given surface area (amount per square inch per FIXED volume)
More area = more pores for oil to flow through = doesn't have to go through the holes so dang fast (take your sweet time)
Less area = LESS pores for oil to flow through = HURRY UP!
Get it now?
The larger filter is going to flow more oil. If you fill up an old wine barrel full of water and pull out your Smith&Wesson, the more holes you put in it the faster the water drains out.
You are confusing total flow (bullet holes) versus flow for a given surface area (amount per square inch per FIXED volume)
More area = more pores for oil to flow through = doesn't have to go through the holes so dang fast (take your sweet time)
Less area = LESS pores for oil to flow through = HURRY UP!
Get it now?
Here is a 2008 chev 6.0 engine. Turn the photo so the oil filter is vertical for the proper perspective. That’s the short filter. (10060) As you can see there is still a lot of room for the long filter and it would still be protected but the pan.
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