Does the bypass relief valve pressure matter much?

Then there's just the problem of the 20 minutes or so of running/driving that it takes the oil to get up to 100c.
The 4548-1 test shows 74c for sae30 developing 1 to 2 psi per L/m of flow depending on if you have the rock catcher or higher end version.
74c seems like a good almost wamed up or optimistic short trip temperature.
In the winter I'm at least half way to work before the oil hits 74c in my truck. If I take the truck to lunch, 2 to 3 miles each way it never hits 74c.
So sub 100c flow seems fairly important.
Where are you getting 1 to 2 psi of filter dP per L/min of flow? 1 L/m is only 0.26 GPM.

Viscosity of 11.5 cSt (what the dP vs Flow was in the graph in post 56) is a bit above the middle of the SAE 30 grade at 100C. SAE 30 at 75C (167F) might be around 14-15 cSt (near top end of SAE 40 at 100C). So the dP across the oil filter would be around 25% higher at that higher oil viscosity at the same flow rate. So if the filter had 5 psi of dP with 11.5 cSt, it would have about 6.3 psi of dP with the slightly thicker oil.

As mentioned in many threads, it's always a good idea to keep engine RPM down to a sensible level until the oil warms up pretty good. Don't redline it to work. ;)
 
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Here's the graph in post 56 showing the Flow vs dP with different oil viscosity.

1700368412264.jpeg
 
This is a test that Purolator did on a new (unloaded) PureOne PL14006 with hot oil. The dP is only about 5.5 PSI at 13 GPM.

View attachment 188889
Just chiming in a bit late in this discussion.
Was that data acquired on a flow test bench or on a mule?

If on a bench what was the outlet restriction or was it open ended?

Just a general note, the outlet restriction (simulating internal engine drill, journal and oiling orifices) can be significant with cold lubricant and actually REDUCE the differential pressure. Taking the calculus to a limit, if the outlet was dead-headed there would be no flow and no ∆p, as the outlet restriction is reduced, the element impedance will become more significant, and the differential will rise.

Did @bluesubie or NASIOC ever find out from Subaru why Subaru spec a high bypass setting (>20 psid)_ on its EJ turbo engines? We all had guesses,

- Ken
 
Just chiming in a bit late in this discussion.
Was that data acquired on a flow test bench or on a mule?
On a test bench in Purolator's test lab.

If on a bench what was the outlet restriction or was it open ended?
Like most lab setups, the filter will be in-line with a flow path supplying the test oil flowing though the filter. How much pressure is on the downside of the filter doesn't matter because only the dP across the filter is being measured. If the inlet at the filter is at 80 PSI and the outlet at 70 PSI, then the dP is 10 PSI. If the inlet is at 15 PSI and the outlet is at 5 PSI, then the dP is still 10 PSI. Only the oil viscosity and the flow rate going through the filter determines the dP across the filter - what goes on before and after the filter is irrelevant of what's going on across the filter. That's what the graph in post 62 shows.

Just a general note, the outlet restriction (simulating internal engine drill, journal and oiling orifices) can be significant with cold lubricant and actually REDUCE the differential pressure. Taking the calculus to a limit, if the outlet was dead-headed there would be no flow and no ∆p, as the outlet restriction is reduced, the element impedance will become more significant, and the differential will rise.
If all conditions in a flow system except the oil viscosity is constant, then increasing just the viscosity will always increase the pressure drop across the flow path. There are no cases in that scenario where increasing the viscosity will reduce the dP across a flow element. If the flow system resistance is fixed, and the flow rate is constant, then increasing the viscosity will also increase the required pressure to move that same volume, and it will also increase the dP across each flow element in the system. That's a basic law of fluid dynamics.

In other words, if you have a flow path that has a fixed configuration, like an engine oiling system or a flow component like an oil filter, there will be a dP across them based on the flow volume and oil viscosity. If the flow volume is held constant, and the viscosity increased, then the dP across all flow elements in the system will also increase. That's why you see a shift upward across the flow axis on the Flow vs dP graph in post 62 as the viscosity increases.

Keep in mind that with really cold thick oil that the PD oil pump can also hit pressure relief pretty easily. When the PD hit's pressure relief, then that will cut back (limit) the max flow going to the oiling system with that cold oil viscosity. So that in turn, also helps limit the flow the oil filter will see, and limit the dP across the filter. In other words, if the oil pump hits pressure relief much sooner and limits the max flow rate to say 4 GPM, then the oil filter will only be seeing a dP associated with 4 GPM of that thick cold oil. The filter could still go into bypass, but that cut-back/limited oil flow by the pump helps keep the filter out of bypass in that scenario.

Did @bluesubie or NASIOC ever find out from Subaru why Subaru spec a high bypass setting (>20 psid)_ on its EJ turbo engines? We all had guesses,

- Ken
It's been discussed many times, and what makes the most sense is the filter bypass is set pretty high because of the crazy high oil pump volume output on those Subaru engines. Filter designers have to consider what the max expected oil flow rate will be, and also the flow resistance of the filter itself. If there is a relatively high flow volume going through a relatively flow restrictive filter (meaning its Flow vs dP curve like in post 62 is shifted higher on the graph), then the filter bypass valve has to be set accordingly to keep the filter out of bypass as much as possible while still protecting the filter and engine.
 
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Where are you getting 1 to 2 psi of filter dP per L/min of flow? 1 L/m is only 0.26 GPM.

Viscosity of 11.5 cSt (what the dP vs Flow was in the graph in post 56) is a bit above the middle of the SAE 30 grade at 100C. SAE 30 at 75C (167F) might be around 14-15 cSt (near top end of SAE 40 at 100C). So the dP across the oil filter would be around 25% higher at that higher oil viscosity at the same flow rate. So if the filter had 5 psi of dP with 11.5 cSt, it would have about 6.3 psi of dP with the slightly thicker oil.

As mentioned in many threads, it's always a good idea to keep engine RPM down to a sensible level until the oil warms up pretty good. Don't redline it to work. ;)
The iso 4548-1 test uses the really weird flow rate of 24mm²/sec.
Is 24mm squared per second not approximately a liter per minute, on the low side of approximately a liter per minute?
Because if I did that conversation wrong and it's really a lot more that would be great.
 
On a test bench in Purolator's test lab.


Like most lab setups, the filter will be in-line with a flow path supplying the test oil flowing though the filter. How much pressure is on the downside of the filter doesn't matter because only the dP across the filter is being measured. But dp relates to outlet restriction. This not a simulation of any particular configuration where R2 could possiblly be >/+ R1. R1 being filter restriction and R2 being outlet restriction in a model.


If all conditions in a flow system except the oil viscosity is constant, then increasing just the viscosity will always increase the pressure drop across the flow path. There are no cases in that scenario where increasing the viscosity will reduce the dP across a flow element. I might argue in the case hinted at (above) where the outlet restriction is > than inlet restriction (filter). Decades ago my garage typically ran dual remote FL1A filters on our competition engines to take the filter dp out of the equation. I concede that with cellulous/glass media element under 100sq-in - and most piston engine over 1 liter - the filter indeed will be the greater restriction.

It's been discussed many times, and what makes the most sense is the filter bypass is set pretty high because of the crazy high oil pump volume output on those Subaru engines. ... . I don't see anything in that 4 cyl engine design (clearances + oiling orifaces) where that "crazy'" flow rate would ever actualize. System pressure will be limited, pump will bypass. I recall the NA EJ engine bypass is set to mid 70's, Turbo 85psi. My outdoor garden hose cannot flow 1 quart per second at 60 psi. I would say that is the simple pump spec capability in an open system - given the low outlet pressure specified at 5000 RPM (see below)
STI 10mm oil pump -
subaru oil pump spec.jpg
 
If you search you'll find this question extensively discussed here at BITOG.
The short answer is that the bypass valve opens when the filter is clogged (which should never happen), and may also open on cold starts when the oil is thick. If the latter happens it's only for a moment and should be no big deal.
MRC01,
Superbly answered.
 
The iso 4548-1 test uses the really weird flow rate of 24mm²/sec.
Like I said earlier, that 24 mm²/sec is not a flow rate. That is the oil kinematic viscosity - the units of mm²/sec is kinematic viscosity in centistokes (cSt) . You are totally misreading those Spec Sheets.

Is 24mm squared per second not approximately a liter per minute, on the low side of approximately a liter per minute?
Because if I did that conversation wrong and it's really a lot more that would be great.
The test flow rate on those Purolator/M+H Spec Sheets is located near the top of the sheet. Here's one where I annotated in red to clarify how to read them. The filter was tested at a flow rate of 3.0 GPM with oil that was 24 cSt kinematic viscosity. Under those test conditions, it had 1.5 PSI of dP.

1700509214367.png
 
But dp relates to outlet restriction. This not a simulation of any particular configuration where R2 could possiblly be >/+ R1. R1 being filter restriction and R2 being outlet restriction in a model.
The filter outlet restriction doesn't change the dP across the filter. What determines the dP across the filter is: 1) The flow vs dP performance of the filter, 2) The oil viscosity, and 3) The flow rate of the oil. See the graph in post 62 which shows all of that going on.

There is no way that the outlet pressure can be higher than the inlet pressure. If it was, the oil would be flowing backwards through the filter. All flow moves from a high pressure to a low pressure - always. That's a basic law of fluid dynamics.

I might argue in the case hinted at (above) where the outlet restriction is > than inlet restriction (filter). Decades ago my garage typically ran dual remote FL1A filters on our competition engines to take the filter dp out of the equation. I concede that with cellulous/glass media element under 100sq-in - and most piston engine over 1 liter - the filter indeed will be the greater restriction.
Again, there is no way the fluid pressure on the outlet of the filter is higher than the pressure on the inlet. The pressure on the inlet has to be higher than the outlet in order to make fluid flow from the inlet to the outlet. Basic fluid dynamics.

There is not way an oil filter is more flow restrictive than an engine's oiling system. I find that most oil filters are only about 1/15th the flow restiction of an engine oiling system.

I don't see anything in that 4 cyl engine design (clearances + oiling orifaces) where that "crazy'" flow rate would ever actualize. System pressure will be limited, pump will bypass. I recall the NA EJ engine bypass is set to mid 70's, Turbo 85psi. My outdoor garden hose cannot flow 1 quart per second at 60 psi. I would say that is the simple pump spec capability in an open system - given the low outlet pressure specified at 5000 RPM (see below).

1700510862342.png
Hard to say exactly what the Subaru service manual oil pump spec really means. I've addressed this before when that spec sheet has popped up in previous discussions. Yes, the "discharge pressure" seems low for oil at 80C, but maybe those oiling systems are relatively low flow restriction. Says at 5000 RPM that the pump discharge is 49.7 qt/min (12.4 GPM). That's not out of the question, but yes I agree is that actually the flow rate seen in the engine with the pump pressure relief set to 85 PSI as shown in the specs? If the engine does flow that much oil volume, then that's one reason why Subaru shows the OEM filter to have a high 23.2 PSI bypass valve setting.
 
MRC01,
Superbly answered.
Well it depends.
The filter could have a 7 to 11psi bypass or no bypass but the filter head assembly in the engine could have a 3 to 5 psi bypass built into it.
Or you go to an oil change shop and they don't have your vehicles filter so they put a smaller one on, because it fits and they don't care.
Further more when driving lots of api sae testing shows that a typical gasoline car engine produces about 1mg of dirt, mostly soot per minute of running/driving. A typical oil change happens between 75 to 150hrs.
Its no unreasonable to have several psi of pressure differential on a new filter with new oil then have that increase a few more psi after it's soaked up several grams of soot.
 
Well it depends.
The filter could have a 7 to 11psi bypass or no bypass but the filter head assembly in the engine could have a 3 to 5 psi bypass built into it.
Or you go to an oil change shop and they don't have your vehicles filter so they put a smaller one on, because it fits and they don't care.
Further more when driving lots of api sae testing shows that a typical gasoline car engine produces about 1mg of dirt, mostly soot per minute of running/driving. A typical oil change happens between 75 to 150hrs.
Its no unreasonable to have several psi of pressure differential on a new filter with new oil then have that increase a few more psi after it's soaked up several grams of soot.
Soot is typically too small to get caught by a filter, FWIW. Carbonaceous particulate, on the other hand, generally is.
 
earlier I mentioned the oiling system of the Ford 427 FE motor, as it has a pressure relief valve set at 100 psi. And on several Ford 289 HiPo K code engines I’ve used a Melling oil pump ( M-10688) with an adjustable relief valve set as high as it could be adjusted.
Which the Melling engineers tell me is in 90-95 psi range. No concerns about oil being bypassed, the normal pressure was 60-80 psi.


In both cases a standard Ford MotorCraft FL-1A oil filter was used. Although I do normally use the Mobil 1 M-301 oil filter (made by Champion I believe) as they are “supposed” to have a thicker / stronger case.

In my anecdotal experiences, these higher oil pressures have little to no impact on filter bypass issues.

Z

IMG_3652.jpg


74CBF3F7-AE76-4E4C-A05E-0BAD462F7AC3.jpeg


IMG_3650.jpg
 
I found an old late 1990s filter adaptor in my junk collection for a 454 motor home. Has 2 filter bypasses built in. Both oil by passes have an exposed circle of about 0.44'' inches in diameter, the total disk diameter is about 0.55 inches, both oil bypass springs off seat with almost exactly 1lb of force and are open pretty good with 1lb 3oz.
If I didn't screw up catastrophiclly again, that's about 7psi to crack that bypass open, maybe a little less and if the exposed surface area is more because it's kind of a radiused edge. It has a side profile that looks like this:
)______(
The exposed flat surface on the bypass could really be 0.45 or 0.46 inches in diameter.
Get an oil filter that has a roughly 1 atmosphere bypass? Doesn't matter it will just bypass the filter entirely.
 
Soot is typically too small to get caught by a filter, FWIW. Carbonaceous particulate, on the other hand, generally is.
Yeah some portion of combustion byproduct stays suspended in the oil by the detergent disputants.
I do not know how much of that 1mg per mile or minute stays in the oil and how much stays in the filter I'm sure some of it depends on how tight the filter media is.
 
Yeah some portion of combustion byproduct stays suspended in the oil by the detergent disputants.
I do not know how much of that 1mg per mile or minute stays in the oil and how much stays in the filter I'm sure some of it depends on how tight the filter media is.
Yep, that's the purpose of the DI package, prevent agglomeration of that material (dispersants) and keep them in suspension (detergents).
 
I found an old late 1990s filter adaptor in my junk collection for a 454 motor home. Has 2 filter bypasses built in. Both oil by passes have an exposed circle of about 0.44'' inches in diameter, the total disk diameter is about 0.55 inches, both oil bypass springs off seat with almost exactly 1lb of force and are open pretty good with 1lb 3oz.
If I didn't screw up catastrophiclly again, that's about 7psi to crack that bypass open, maybe a little less and if the exposed surface area is more because it's kind of a radiused edge. It has a side profile that looks like this:
)______(
The exposed flat surface on the bypass could really be 0.45 or 0.46 inches in diameter.
Get an oil filter that has a roughly 1 atmosphere bypass? Doesn't matter it will just bypass the filter entirely.
One has to wonder if when those engines were designed that the specified OEM oil filters were super low dP vs Flow filters. Yes, 7-8 PSI on an in-block filter bypass valve seems pretty low these days.
 
That's an optimistic 7psid now.
It was probably a bit more 20 years ago.
What's the bypass tend to look like on newer engines these days?
 
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Subaru likes 23psid
Pre-1980 gm was supposedly 10psid.
Later GM engines are supposed to be 17-18psid, seems unlikely.
LS people like to argue about deleting the bypass.
 
That's an optimistic 7psid now.
It was probably a bit more 20 years ago.
What's the bypass tend to look like on newer engines these days?
I know the LS series of GM engines started cracking the in-block filter bypass valve at ~12 PSI and was fully open at ~22 PSI. That was based on someone on a Vette board doing the same kind of measurements on a tore down engine like you did with a force gauge and measuring the diameter of the valve.
 
I know the LS series of GM engines started cracking the in-block filter bypass valve at ~12 PSI and was fully open at ~22 PSI. That was based on someone on a Vette board doing the same kind of measurements on a tore down engine like you did with a force gauge and measuring the diameter of the valve.
12psid doesn't seem unreasonable.
I don't know if I like the idea of 23psid like on a Subaru engine.
18 to 22psid seems fine for a hydraulic system.

I didn't even use a force gauge, I turned the filter head upsidedown and set punches on it untill I got one that just barely off set the bypass. 1lb made the bypass off seat and the weight of the 1.2lb punch opened the bypass about 1mm. If I had a approximately a 14 or 15oz punch I would try that too.
I had tried a 13oz punch, it would not off seat the bypass then my next heaviest one was 1lb and it did.
That's why I say it was an optimistic 7psid bypass as a 14 or 15oz weight may be enough to off seat it.
 
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