I'm not a big David Suzuki fan, but he commented one time that if we do not have confidence to drink out of our own taps, we should be raising holy heck with our municipal authorities.
perceptions and reality
- Thread starter dnewton3
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
What I find ridiculous is charging $1.79 for a bottle of water.
Or $3 or $4 when you buy it at the airport.
What I find ridiculous is charging $1.79 for a bottle of water.
Or $3 or $4 when you buy it at the airport.
Its to their discretion if they only sell them individually. They arent walmart or a grocery store, they sell electronics.. if you go to their little fridge and take 24 bottles that are listed at 1.79 each.. than thats what you pay... Its not they only started doing that because of the crisis.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Then it appears I completely misunderstood the situation.
If BB only sells singles, and the cases were or water labeled for individual sale, then nobody has any right to complain, and BB acted in accordance with their vendor agreement and the opposite is true of my original assessment.
Yea, I goofed a bit too. What subliminal message caused me to think we were talking about Home Depot??? I retract most of my stupid comments. Sorry.
Then it appears I completely misunderstood the situation.
If BB only sells singles, and the cases were or water labeled for individual sale, then nobody has any right to complain, and BB acted in accordance with their vendor agreement and the opposite is true of my original assessment.
Yea, I goofed a bit too. What subliminal message caused me to think we were talking about Home Depot??? I retract most of my stupid comments. Sorry.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Also, at $43/case, it might just keep some folks from "hoarding". If the case was priced as a case at $4.99, some jerk would buy it all and keep it for himself. But at $43, he'll just but a few perhaps and leave some for others.
All why the "price" is totally legitimate. The price per unit was not "gouged"; it stayed the same all the time.
I would be mad at the retailers of they bumped the price of the bottles such that the cost was $3.00/bottle or $72/case. THAT would be price gouging. But they didn't. They charged a market price that was established PRIOR to the catastrophe; one that none of us complained about PRIOR to the hurricane.
Perspective.
Of course it will slow down hoarding. At $5/case the first few people that walked by would have bought it all, just in case.
Also, at $43/case, it might just keep some folks from "hoarding". If the case was priced as a case at $4.99, some jerk would buy it all and keep it for himself. But at $43, he'll just but a few perhaps and leave some for others.
All why the "price" is totally legitimate. The price per unit was not "gouged"; it stayed the same all the time.
I would be mad at the retailers of they bumped the price of the bottles such that the cost was $3.00/bottle or $72/case. THAT would be price gouging. But they didn't. They charged a market price that was established PRIOR to the catastrophe; one that none of us complained about PRIOR to the hurricane.
Perspective.
Of course it will slow down hoarding. At $5/case the first few people that walked by would have bought it all, just in case.
In market economies, goods are rationed by price.
How would we prefer that it be done?
If I were in the DFW area now and passed by ten gas stations out of fuel while the low fuel light continued merrily glowing, I'd be happy to pay ten bucks a gallon for ten gallons of gas that would get me three hundred miles out of the area.
Scarcity brings higher prices for goods.
Neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, just how things work in a microeconomic environment controlled by markets and not by central planners.
Yes, this was price gouging by the Best Buy location, but what they held was effectively an auction and those willing to pay got the scarce resources.
How would we prefer that it be done?
If I were in the DFW area now and passed by ten gas stations out of fuel while the low fuel light continued merrily glowing, I'd be happy to pay ten bucks a gallon for ten gallons of gas that would get me three hundred miles out of the area.
Scarcity brings higher prices for goods.
Neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, just how things work in a microeconomic environment controlled by markets and not by central planners.
Yes, this was price gouging by the Best Buy location, but what they held was effectively an auction and those willing to pay got the scarce resources.
According to the Costco flyer, they have a Kirkland 40 pack of 16.9 ounce waters on special for $2.99
The picture does show price by the case, which is inflammatory. It was printed on a printer and was not a professional sign. Don't go crazy on BB.
While market economy is good and all, price gouging in a county under emergency declaration is illegal and will be prosecuted.
So far, municipal water supplies are all fine with the biggest exception being Beaumont. A nearby neighborhood was evacuated due to sanitary sewer issues. We lost one of our MUD wells, but it is now back online.
Just because homes don't have power doesn't mean that the water plants are offline. Critical infrastructure gets a huge priority for resources. The water buying was fear buying when it wasn't known how long or how bad it would be. The Houston area was never forecasted to have extended power outages, so water supplies hve been relatively secure.
The response from HEB, Kroger and Aldi in the local community has been impressive. Our local Aldi donated food and meat to cook for first responders while HEB had mobile kitchens dispatched to provide aid.
The response from far away first responders really hit home when they were all able to make it through the flooding. It was an emotional experience watching cruisers from all over in an informal parade before they went on duty to relieve the exhausted HPD folks.
If you can't find the videos, let me know and I will post them.
While market economy is good and all, price gouging in a county under emergency declaration is illegal and will be prosecuted.
So far, municipal water supplies are all fine with the biggest exception being Beaumont. A nearby neighborhood was evacuated due to sanitary sewer issues. We lost one of our MUD wells, but it is now back online.
Just because homes don't have power doesn't mean that the water plants are offline. Critical infrastructure gets a huge priority for resources. The water buying was fear buying when it wasn't known how long or how bad it would be. The Houston area was never forecasted to have extended power outages, so water supplies hve been relatively secure.
The response from HEB, Kroger and Aldi in the local community has been impressive. Our local Aldi donated food and meat to cook for first responders while HEB had mobile kitchens dispatched to provide aid.
The response from far away first responders really hit home when they were all able to make it through the flooding. It was an emotional experience watching cruisers from all over in an informal parade before they went on duty to relieve the exhausted HPD folks.
If you can't find the videos, let me know and I will post them.
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way.
They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
This is why we can't have nice things.
You can have all the nice things you can afford. Working more hours allows you to afford more things, wether they're nice or not.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way.
They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
This is why we can't have nice things.
You can have all the nice things you can afford. Working more hours allows you to afford more things, wether they're nice or not.
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way. They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a situation like this. If you do, you may understand just how stupid your statement is.
I have stocks of tinned food & bottled water, a diesel generator and a kayak, plus I live atop a hill in an area approx. 300ft above sea level.
If you live in an area that floods you have to expect these things, like all the idiots who live on flood pains in the uk. Each area has its own geography, and you have to be aware of this before buying a house.
Bottom line is;
Plan for the worst & be prepared for the worst to last a long time.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way. They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a situation like this. If you do, you may understand just how stupid your statement is.
I have stocks of tinned food & bottled water, a diesel generator and a kayak, plus I live atop a hill in an area approx. 300ft above sea level.
If you live in an area that floods you have to expect these things, like all the idiots who live on flood pains in the uk. Each area has its own geography, and you have to be aware of this before buying a house.
Bottom line is;
Plan for the worst & be prepared for the worst to last a long time.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 9,807
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way. They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a situation like this. If you do, you may understand just how stupid your statement is.
I have stocks of tinned food & bottled water, a diesel generator and a kayak, plus I live atop a hill in an area approx. 300ft above sea level.
If you live in an area that floods you have to expect these things, like all the idiots who live on flood pains in the uk. Each area has its own geography, and you have to be aware of this before buying a house.
Bottom line is;
Plan for the worst & be prepared for the worst to last a long time.
Except there has never been a flood like this before, there reports this is the largest/worst flooding in US history. One will never know what the "worst" will be nor how long it will last so unless one has very substantial resources and storage, "a long time" will vary. With that said, none of this relates to your statement of applauding price gouging which in my opinion is still stupid.
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way. They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a situation like this. If you do, you may understand just how stupid your statement is.
I have stocks of tinned food & bottled water, a diesel generator and a kayak, plus I live atop a hill in an area approx. 300ft above sea level.
If you live in an area that floods you have to expect these things, like all the idiots who live on flood pains in the uk. Each area has its own geography, and you have to be aware of this before buying a house.
Bottom line is;
Plan for the worst & be prepared for the worst to last a long time.
Except there has never been a flood like this before, there reports this is the largest/worst flooding in US history. One will never know what the "worst" will be nor how long it will last so unless one has very substantial resources and storage, "a long time" will vary. With that said, none of this relates to your statement of applauding price gouging which in my opinion is still stupid.
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way. They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a situation like this. If you do, you may understand just how stupid your statement is.
I have stocks of tinned food & bottled water, a diesel generator and a kayak, plus I live atop a hill in an area approx. 300ft above sea level.
If you live in an area that floods you have to expect these things, like all the idiots who live on flood pains in the uk. Each area has its own geography, and you have to be aware of this before buying a house.
Bottom line is;
Plan for the worst & be prepared for the worst to last a long time.
Except there has never been a flood like this before, there reports this is the largest/worst flooding in US history. One will never know what the "worst" will be nor how long it will last so unless one has very substantial resources and storage, "a long time" will vary. With that said, none of this relates to your statement of applauding price gouging which in my opinion is still stupid.
"never"?? It's a ten-thousand year event, it's happened plenty of times.
Certain areas are prone to flooding, home buyers beware.
Keynesian economics applies everywhere currency exists.
What is your problem with these simple facts?
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Olas
Businesses only exist to generate profit, it is the Capitalist way. They should be applauded for setting prices where supply meets demand.
I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a situation like this. If you do, you may understand just how stupid your statement is.
I have stocks of tinned food & bottled water, a diesel generator and a kayak, plus I live atop a hill in an area approx. 300ft above sea level.
If you live in an area that floods you have to expect these things, like all the idiots who live on flood pains in the uk. Each area has its own geography, and you have to be aware of this before buying a house.
Bottom line is;
Plan for the worst & be prepared for the worst to last a long time.
Except there has never been a flood like this before, there reports this is the largest/worst flooding in US history. One will never know what the "worst" will be nor how long it will last so unless one has very substantial resources and storage, "a long time" will vary. With that said, none of this relates to your statement of applauding price gouging which in my opinion is still stupid.
"never"?? It's a ten-thousand year event, it's happened plenty of times.
Certain areas are prone to flooding, home buyers beware.
Keynesian economics applies everywhere currency exists.
What is your problem with these simple facts?
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 9,807
Originally Posted By: Olas
"never"?? It's a ten-thousand year event, it's happened plenty of times.
Who said anything about never? I said it was being reported as the worst flooding in US history. The word never was used as "One will never know what the "worst" will be nor how long it will last" so unless you have a time machine or a crystal ball how will you know when it will happen or how long it will last? So do you prepare for 1 week, 1 month, 6 months, 1 year? The logistics surrounding each of those time intervals is exponential from the previous hence my statement about needed substantial resources and storage. I will not even open the topic of what will happen if it really hits the fan.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Certain areas are prone to flooding, home buyers beware.
I never disputed that, but there are areas which have not flooded at all or this badly which have been affected.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Keynesian economics applies everywhere currency exists. What is your problem with these simple facts?
What simple facts? That it is ok to price gouge during a disaster?
"never"?? It's a ten-thousand year event, it's happened plenty of times.
Who said anything about never? I said it was being reported as the worst flooding in US history. The word never was used as "One will never know what the "worst" will be nor how long it will last" so unless you have a time machine or a crystal ball how will you know when it will happen or how long it will last? So do you prepare for 1 week, 1 month, 6 months, 1 year? The logistics surrounding each of those time intervals is exponential from the previous hence my statement about needed substantial resources and storage. I will not even open the topic of what will happen if it really hits the fan.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Certain areas are prone to flooding, home buyers beware.
I never disputed that, but there are areas which have not flooded at all or this badly which have been affected.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Keynesian economics applies everywhere currency exists. What is your problem with these simple facts?
What simple facts? That it is ok to price gouge during a disaster?
dnewton3
Staff member
Every single comment here goes to prove my point.
THIS IS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE. Some think it's gouging, some don't.
Price gouging could be generally defined as altering the price of a product, during an event/catastrophe, to take advantage of panic buying or desperate conditions.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/price-gouging/
I've been told that I'm "off the rails", etc, in this topic. But panic induces altered perspectives in those experiencing the phenomenon. Let's look at facts; you all know I'm all about the facts (and laws). Here's some "perspective" for you all ...
In IN, where I'm at, it only covers fuel. Nothing more.
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/indiana/in-code/indiana_code_4-6-9-1-2
In TX, it's a broader scope, with greater contributing conditions, but NOWHERE can I find any cause to prosecute the BB location employees for "price gouging". The TX laws are based on "deceptive practices" and such ...
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/price-gouging
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/BC/htm/BC.17.htm#17.46
"(27) taking advantage of a disaster declared by the governor under Chapter 418, Government Code, by:
(A) selling or leasing fuel, food, medicine, or another necessity at an exorbitant or excessive price; or
(B) demanding an exorbitant or excessive price in connection with the sale or lease of fuel, food, medicine, or another necessity; ... "
FACTS:
- they did not alter the price of a bottle of water one cent. It was $1.79 prior to the event, and it's still $1.79 at the time of the photo during the event.
- there is no legal requirement that they sell the bottled water as a "case". They are offering individual bottles in bulk; that's it and nothing more.
- there was no deceptive practice in the advertising of the product
Going to be REALLY hard for the TX ATTY General to claim this was a "deceptive trade practice" via gouging, when the product was fairly, openly, accurately advertised at a price that was completely identical to the pricing PRIOR to the event. This will not likely ever be prosecuted as a crime; it's not "gouging". Despite the fact that many folks emotionally recoil at the sight. As already said, the disgusting thing is that we all willing pay that same price every day of the year. And not one person complains to a point of internet hysteria during a "normal" day. In fact, as others have pointed out, bottles of water are MORE (up to $4 depending upon size) at kiosks in airports, movie theaters, etc.
? Was it bad PR? Absolutely.
? Was it a bad business practice? Perhaps ... (if they had shown a single bottle at $1.79, rather than a case at $43, we would not be having this conversation. )
? Was it criminal? No way in Hades. It does NOT qualify for "gouging" or "deceptive practice" by TX law
Additionally, at least in most of these states, there is an understanding of the conditions that are LEGITIMATE that induce higher costs. For example, bringing in supplies from other areas will likely induce higher transportation costs (trucked in from other regions), paying overtime for outside sourcing to make "more" in other locations, etc. The cost of gas will go up because the total national capacity is affected by the Houston area being unable to make fuel. Therefore the entire nation will see price increases, and trucking that fuel INTO the devastated region has more associated costs. That same concept applies to food and other products like generators.
If I decide to "help" with relief, I can buy generators here in IN, load them into my Chevy truck, and as long as I don't "overcharge" for my legit costs, I am NOT gouging. For example:
price paid for the generator
price of fuel to drive from IN to TX
price of my time (estimated from my base pay at my regular job converted to drive time hours to/from TX)
Certainly it costs MORE for me to get a generator to you; I'm several states away. But as long as I don't OVERCHARGE past a reasonable reflection of my costs, I'm not "gouging" and therefore not breaking the law. The same goes for water. If I bought cases of water in IN, and drove them to TX, there is no way my price per case is going to be the same. I have to get paid for my miles and time. That is true for ANY individual or company that has to bring resources into a region that is not normally served by the alternate source location.
Don't let your perspective loose sight of the law and common sense.
THIS IS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE. Some think it's gouging, some don't.
Price gouging could be generally defined as altering the price of a product, during an event/catastrophe, to take advantage of panic buying or desperate conditions.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/price-gouging/
I've been told that I'm "off the rails", etc, in this topic. But panic induces altered perspectives in those experiencing the phenomenon. Let's look at facts; you all know I'm all about the facts (and laws). Here's some "perspective" for you all ...
In IN, where I'm at, it only covers fuel. Nothing more.
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/indiana/in-code/indiana_code_4-6-9-1-2
In TX, it's a broader scope, with greater contributing conditions, but NOWHERE can I find any cause to prosecute the BB location employees for "price gouging". The TX laws are based on "deceptive practices" and such ...
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/price-gouging
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/BC/htm/BC.17.htm#17.46
"(27) taking advantage of a disaster declared by the governor under Chapter 418, Government Code, by:
(A) selling or leasing fuel, food, medicine, or another necessity at an exorbitant or excessive price; or
(B) demanding an exorbitant or excessive price in connection with the sale or lease of fuel, food, medicine, or another necessity; ... "
FACTS:
- they did not alter the price of a bottle of water one cent. It was $1.79 prior to the event, and it's still $1.79 at the time of the photo during the event.
- there is no legal requirement that they sell the bottled water as a "case". They are offering individual bottles in bulk; that's it and nothing more.
- there was no deceptive practice in the advertising of the product
Going to be REALLY hard for the TX ATTY General to claim this was a "deceptive trade practice" via gouging, when the product was fairly, openly, accurately advertised at a price that was completely identical to the pricing PRIOR to the event. This will not likely ever be prosecuted as a crime; it's not "gouging". Despite the fact that many folks emotionally recoil at the sight. As already said, the disgusting thing is that we all willing pay that same price every day of the year. And not one person complains to a point of internet hysteria during a "normal" day. In fact, as others have pointed out, bottles of water are MORE (up to $4 depending upon size) at kiosks in airports, movie theaters, etc.
? Was it bad PR? Absolutely.
? Was it a bad business practice? Perhaps ... (if they had shown a single bottle at $1.79, rather than a case at $43, we would not be having this conversation. )
? Was it criminal? No way in Hades. It does NOT qualify for "gouging" or "deceptive practice" by TX law
Additionally, at least in most of these states, there is an understanding of the conditions that are LEGITIMATE that induce higher costs. For example, bringing in supplies from other areas will likely induce higher transportation costs (trucked in from other regions), paying overtime for outside sourcing to make "more" in other locations, etc. The cost of gas will go up because the total national capacity is affected by the Houston area being unable to make fuel. Therefore the entire nation will see price increases, and trucking that fuel INTO the devastated region has more associated costs. That same concept applies to food and other products like generators.
If I decide to "help" with relief, I can buy generators here in IN, load them into my Chevy truck, and as long as I don't "overcharge" for my legit costs, I am NOT gouging. For example:
price paid for the generator
price of fuel to drive from IN to TX
price of my time (estimated from my base pay at my regular job converted to drive time hours to/from TX)
Certainly it costs MORE for me to get a generator to you; I'm several states away. But as long as I don't OVERCHARGE past a reasonable reflection of my costs, I'm not "gouging" and therefore not breaking the law. The same goes for water. If I bought cases of water in IN, and drove them to TX, there is no way my price per case is going to be the same. I have to get paid for my miles and time. That is true for ANY individual or company that has to bring resources into a region that is not normally served by the alternate source location.
Don't let your perspective loose sight of the law and common sense.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 9,807
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Every single comment here goes to prove my point. [...]
With the vast majority of the other retailers holding pricing or donating (except perhaps for BestBuy), the "facts" as you describe them while drowned in the minutia as you are so fond of do not pan out. Are the remainder of the other retailers selling bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing? If they were, then that would be the price the market would bear and it would be what it is, but that is not the case. Has there ever been widespread selling of bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing (disasters not withstanding)?
BestBuy likely had the water prior to the disaster and therefore did not pay any higher price for it and yet they decide to sell at 10x the cost of a normal case of water (a 40 pack of 16oz Ozarka water is $3.99 at Costco)? I am certainly not an expert, but it sure smells like price gouging according to your definition - "Price gouging could be generally defined as altering the price of a product, during an event/catastrophe, to take advantage of panic buying or desperate conditions." By the way, I was not affected by the storm and therefore panic is not altering my perspective.
Every single comment here goes to prove my point. [...]
With the vast majority of the other retailers holding pricing or donating (except perhaps for BestBuy), the "facts" as you describe them while drowned in the minutia as you are so fond of do not pan out. Are the remainder of the other retailers selling bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing? If they were, then that would be the price the market would bear and it would be what it is, but that is not the case. Has there ever been widespread selling of bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing (disasters not withstanding)?
BestBuy likely had the water prior to the disaster and therefore did not pay any higher price for it and yet they decide to sell at 10x the cost of a normal case of water (a 40 pack of 16oz Ozarka water is $3.99 at Costco)? I am certainly not an expert, but it sure smells like price gouging according to your definition - "Price gouging could be generally defined as altering the price of a product, during an event/catastrophe, to take advantage of panic buying or desperate conditions." By the way, I was not affected by the storm and therefore panic is not altering my perspective.
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Every single comment here goes to prove my point. [...]
With the vast majority of the other retailers holding pricing or donating (except perhaps for BestBuy), the "facts" as you describe them while drowned in the minutia as you are so fond of do not pan out. Are the remainder of the other retailers selling bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing? If they were, then that would be the price the market would bear and it would be what it is, but that is not the case. Has there ever been widespread selling of bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing (disasters not withstanding)?
BestBuy likely had the water prior to the disaster and therefore did not pay any higher price for it and yet they decide to sell at 10x the cost of a normal case of water (a 40 pack of 16oz Ozarka water is $3.99 at Costco)? I am certainly not an expert, but it sure smells like price gouging according to your definition - "Price gouging could be generally defined as altering the price of a product, during an event/catastrophe, to take advantage of panic buying or desperate conditions." By the way, I was not affected by the storm and therefore panic is not altering my perspective.
^^^ this. Thank you for a sane perspective.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Every single comment here goes to prove my point. [...]
With the vast majority of the other retailers holding pricing or donating (except perhaps for BestBuy), the "facts" as you describe them while drowned in the minutia as you are so fond of do not pan out. Are the remainder of the other retailers selling bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing? If they were, then that would be the price the market would bear and it would be what it is, but that is not the case. Has there ever been widespread selling of bottled water by the case at individual bottle pricing (disasters not withstanding)?
BestBuy likely had the water prior to the disaster and therefore did not pay any higher price for it and yet they decide to sell at 10x the cost of a normal case of water (a 40 pack of 16oz Ozarka water is $3.99 at Costco)? I am certainly not an expert, but it sure smells like price gouging according to your definition - "Price gouging could be generally defined as altering the price of a product, during an event/catastrophe, to take advantage of panic buying or desperate conditions." By the way, I was not affected by the storm and therefore panic is not altering my perspective.
^^^ this. Thank you for a sane perspective.
- Status
Similar threads
