Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

[Number_35]

I like parts of Europe, but its a large and diverse place. Much like our states, there are good and bad.

Like it or not, in the USA were all connected - same federal laws, same interstate system, same currency. We can disagree on things but once something passes as law, were all in on it, by hook or by crook.

In Europe they tried to do the currency, so all that happened is countries like Greece and Italy can borrow at the same interest rate as Germany. They never got any of the other stuff coordinated. This has propped them up for a number of years - benefitting Germany and bankrupting Italy and Greece. When globalism was expanding and capital was cheap, there system was designed to take advantage of it. So its not too surprising there starting to fall behind, given globalism is now in decline and capital is expensive. Add a war to the mix and here we are.

Our time to suck will come - sooner or later for one reason or the other. Nothing lasts forever.

One justification for a common currency was put forth in Time or Newsweek in the mid-'90s.

Their correspondent travelled throughout Europe, starting with a specific amount of hard currency. Can't remember, but let's say it was 100 Deutsche Marks (DM).

He exchanged the DM for the local currency, and that currency for the currency of the next country, and so on, throughout much of Europe - e.g. DM to Austrian Schillings, Austrian Schillings to French Francs, French Francs to Italian Lira, and so on, throughout Spain, Portugal, Greece, Switzerland, and perhaps a few others, and finally back to DM.

At the end of the dozen or so currency exchanges, the original 100 DM were down to around 60 DM, with no value added whatsoever.

The Euro got rid of this problem (and yes, introduced a variety of others).

 

[Fla]

I nor anybody I served with has known to serve with somebody else who was given that choice - although I heard a lot were given that choice during the Vietnam War. I guess if you need bodies to fight a war.....

One of my buddies from high school was given that choice after he committed a couple of B&Es, and he choose the US Army. It worked well for him, it gave him a chance to grow up and realize how STUPID some of the things had been doing in HS really were. Those are his exact words about the situation. He took classes while in the army and finished high school and graduated. After getting out of the army he started his own business and was quite successful at it. He sold his company to a large national chain and retired at about age 52 with plenty of money. He's told me several times since then they felt very fortunate in that he was a few days from his 18th birthday when he was caught and given that choice. He said that if they would caught him after he turned 18 then he would have been charged as an adult and probably not been given that choice.

That was during VietNam war but he never went there, he spent most of his time in Hawaii and in Germany. He also told me that ultimately, being caught and being more or less forced to join the army was the best thing that ever happened to him. He said that while he was in high school he and his family never lacked for anything and that he only broke into places for something to do, but that he had no goals and no ambitions and probably wouldn't have done anything with his life after school. But going into the army changed all of that.

 

[SC Maintenance]

One justification for a common currency was put forth in Time or Newsweek in the mid-'90s.

Their correspondent travelled throughout Europe, starting with a specific amount of hard currency. Can't remember, but let's say it was 100 Deutsche Marks (DM).

He exchanged the DM for the local currency, and that currency for the currency of the next country, and so on, throughout much of Europe - e.g. DM to Austrian Schillings, Austrian Schillings to French Francs, French Francs to Italian Lira, and so on, throughout Spain, Portugal, Greece, Switzerland, and perhaps a few others, and finally back to DM.

At the end of the dozen or so currency exchanges, the original 100 DM were down to around 60 DM, with no value added whatsoever.

The Euro got rid of this problem (and yes, introduced a variety of others).

Absolutely no doubt about that. I still have some Deutchmarks around here somewhere. However the common currency wasn't done so peasants could move around Europe - although I am sure that was the propaganda of the time. It was done to enable the modern Western European countries to make indebted customers out of the less developed European countries. It has now run its course, so here we are.

Possibly a better opportunity if they just wanted a common currency would have been to have a reserve currency and allow countries to peg to it - like you see in developing countries that peg to the USD. They can change the peg as needed and both currencies are typically accepted. Of course this wasn't the point either - it was to keep the previously mentioned western countries manufacturing based on equal currency footing.

 

[pbm]

Part of the reason the tools are not used is a lack of mentorship. That applies to both parents and teachers plus other sources. So many kids grow up in single parent families. That does have an affect.

Parents and mentors can provide discipline and direction.

I agree that parents and teachers need to share some of the blame but I'd also include the students themselves (personal responsibility).
When my 2 kids were young I told them if they didn't do well in school they could always get a job slicing cold cuts in our local deli for minimum wages. Fortunately for me they listened and both are successful making 6 figure salaries and are under 30 years old.
As far as the single parent families....our government has to take some responsibility for that as woman often lose their 'benefits' when there's a man in the house. Should a welfare recipient get a raise in 'benefits' for every child she has or be forced to live on her existing 'benefit' when she has another child out of wedlock???
As far as who gets to vote....that's a complicated issue....but I'm always bothered by college students who nullify their parents vote while living off them.

 

[Pew]

Here you go again with the heresy agenda, void of reality and facts. I cant have a discussion with you. Look at your own posts, just because you can dig up someone who wants to do something (in this case literacy tests)is pathetically void of reality because it will never happen.

But groups who indoctrinate younger people (because they are smarter than the younger people) get them to believe their cause is about voting rights and literacy testing. Yet no proof what so ever anything like this ever, ever would possibly, remotely take place means nothing, because people get convinced that its an actual threat. This is how you control any group of people, using fear that doesnt exist but convince them that it does. Its so laughable I'll stay out of this. You really want to rule the world and people buy this stuff and why I know I lived in the greatest time in this nation and chances are I wont be here when thinking like this takes it down. Wow, will many young people learn a lesson at that time. We already know we are moving from individual freedom to "group collective" governed by mis-information from an indoctrinated public. One just need read up on the last hundred or so years on rise of dictators in the history books to see how the population is moved into committing some of the most horrific atrocities thinking it's ok.
Yet the USA was still there to take them down and free the people.

Bottom line-
You have to show your divers license OR state ID to buy cigarettes, drink or use it for any legal matter in the USA. It's perfectly sane to expect the same when voting, to keep the system fair to everyone.

Since you don't want to read, I'll do the work for you.

I have always believed only filing taxpayers or property owners over 25 years old and no students of any kind should be allowed to vote.
Military and first responders exempt and can vote anytime.

That's an extremely poor concept. Just because somebody took a different path in life should not mean they're any less eligible to vote, "free voting" literally one of the reasons why European explorers decided to settle in America. Lots of garbage public service folks out there too.

So where in any of my posts did I say to limit the freedom to vote? You want to talk about freedom and yet here you are arguing with me when I say there should be no restrictions on voting except for citizenship while there's others that actively promote that idea. And yes, there has been literacy test in the USA, here's a link to it from the Smithsonian Institute. It's a requirement in this state to pass a constitution and government test in 8th and 10th grade but not in most states. Amusing that immigrants have to take a constitution test to become a citizen when our own citizens don't.

Academics was always the first thing to die when a dictatorship and communism took over in modern history. It's been recorded in nearly every single history book and encyclopedia. "Freedom for me but not for thee" sounds like a good slogan for some folks around here. Maybe call themselves Pol Pot while they're at it.

But it's all a conspiracy. Get your tinfoil hats folks, 5G is going to control our minds LOL.

 

[Pew]

One of my buddies from high school was given that choice after he committed a couple of B&Es, and he choose the US Army. It worked well for him, it gave him a chance to grow up and realize how STUPID some of the things had been doing in HS really were. Those are his exact words about the situation. He took classes while in the army and finished high school and graduated. After getting out of the army he started his own business and was quite successful at it. He sold his company to a large national chain and retired at about age 52 with plenty of money. He's told me several times since then they felt very fortunate in that he was a few days from his 18th birthday when he was caught and given that choice. He said that if they would caught him after he turned 18 then he would have been charged as an adult and probably not been given that choice.

That was during VietNam war but he never went there, he spent most of his time in Hawaii and in Germany. He also told me that ultimately, being caught and being more or less forced to join the army was the best thing that ever happened to him. He said that while he was in high school he and his family never lacked for anything and that he only broke into places for something to do, but that he had no goals and no ambitions and probably wouldn't have done anything with his life after school. But going into the army changed all of that.

That's awesome. The military can definitely help folks realize their potential and bring out the best in them. I'm glad everything worked out for your buddy.

 

[Number_35]

Heinlein liked to float ideas. He was not typically preachy about them. The proposed system would certainly be open to abuse.

What would you think of a means test, whereby the potential voter had to show they had a basic understanding of the issues and the party platforms?

Further to this, my dad ranted about what idiots the voters were after the party he didn't like won a provincial election. He said they (the majority of voters) should not be allowed to vote.

When younger I voted in accordance with my parents' preferences. Later on I became better at critical thinking, and changed how I voted.

I don't suppose Dad thought about how within a few years his ban on "idiot voters" would have disenfranchised his own son.

 

[alarmguy]

I agree that parents and teachers need to share some of the blame but I'd also include the students themselves (personal responsibility).
When my 2 kids were young I told them if they didn't do well in school they could always get a job slicing cold cuts in our local deli for minimum wages. Fortunately for me they listened and both are successful making 6 figure salaries and are under 30 years old.
As far as the single parent families....our government has to take some responsibility for that as woman often lose their 'benefits' when there's a man in the house. Should a welfare recipient get a raise in 'benefits' for every child she has or be forced to live on her existing 'benefit' when she has another child out of wedlock???
As far as who gets to vote....that's a complicated issue....but I'm always bothered by college students who nullify their parents vote while living off them.

Bad example and derogatory to many hard working people and business owners. I know people who started slicing cold cuts and own their own business and their business property investments (real estate investments)
I know another who joined the army and got into engineering with them. 6 years later left the army and ultimate outcome is he is a CEO in the defense industry and making numbers that many may not comprehend.

I am glad your kids are doing fine, so are mine. BTW- do you know the CEO of Walmart makes more than your kids? He started out as a worker unloading trucks at Walmart.

Doug McMillon, President and CEO, Walmart Inc.

Doug McMillon is president and CEO of Walmart Inc. Learn about his leadership and vision for the company.

corporate.walmart.com

Sorry if this sounds personal but kind of makes me sick those who look down on occupations over others who make the most of their lives that they/most dont follow the traditional "model" to become what they have. Including Microsoft founder, Dell Computer founder ... the list endless... just pulled this up in seconds
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/50-super-successful-college-dropouts/42/

IN fact some of the worlds most wealthy people were not indoctrinated into a "system" and became some of the most wealthy on earth.
There are also a significant amount of college failures who are riled in debt because of their own poor choices.
Anyway your comments uncalled for and this is the proof.

 

[Number_35]

One of my buddies from high school was given that choice after he committed a couple of B&Es, and he choose the US Army. It worked well for him, it gave him a chance to grow up and realize how STUPID some of the things had been doing in HS really were. Those are his exact words about the situation. He took classes while in the army and finished high school and graduated. After getting out of the army he started his own business and was quite successful at it. He sold his company to a large national chain and retired at about age 52 with plenty of money. He's told me several times since then they felt very fortunate in that he was a few days from his 18th birthday when he was caught and given that choice. He said that if they would caught him after he turned 18 then he would have been charged as an adult and probably not been given that choice.

That was during VietNam war but he never went there, he spent most of his time in Hawaii and in Germany. He also told me that ultimately, being caught and being more or less forced to join the army was the best thing that ever happened to him. He said that while he was in high school he and his family never lacked for anything and that he only broke into places for something to do, but that he had no goals and no ambitions and probably wouldn't have done anything with his life after school. But going into the army changed all of that.

Check out J.D. Vance's autobiography Hillbilly Elegy.

He came out of a very dysfunctional childhood, learned discipline in the Marines, graduated from an Ivy League university, and is now a senator.

It's an inspiring read.

 

[alarmguy]

So where in any of my posts did I say to limit the freedom to vote? You want to talk about freedom and yet here you are arguing with me when I say there should be no restrictions on voting except for citizenship while there's others that actively promote that idea. And yes, there has been literacy test in the USA, here's a link to it from the Smithsonian Institute. It's a requirement in this state to pass a constitution and government test in 8th and 10th grade but not in most states. Amusing that immigrants have to take a constitution test to become a citizen when our own citizens don't.

Academics was always the first thing to die when a dictatorship and communism took over in modern history. It's been recorded in nearly every single history book and encyclopedia. "Freedom for me but not for thee" sounds like a good slogan for some folks around here. Maybe call themselves Pol Pot while they're at it.

But it's all a conspiracy. Get your tinfoil hats folks, 5G is going to control our minds LOL.

You posted it, so help me out here. Your words "It's a requirement in this state to pass a constitution and government test in 8th and 10th grade but not in most states. "
Tell me what state you speak of because it's void of fact, there are no requirements for literacy tests in the USA and have not been for over 5 decades.

Correct about the Academics as first to die. The educated were always the first to be arrested executed. They were the threat to the dictatorship. With that said we also have indoctrination, when a group takes over the thinking and education of the young.

( I think I misread some of your words on another post, sorry about that if I did. This thread has got crazy and I want to go to the beach so goodbye *LOL*)

 

[JeffKeryk]

I've heard and seen people like you exclaim the merits of "education" for 30+ years.

Exactly what do you / they mean when you speak of "education"? I'm pretty sure I know what y'all mean.... a minimum of a 4-year degree, preferably from some institution you've heard of.

Well that is EXACTLY what has gone wrong in the US the last 30 years - people going and paying blindly for some sort of degree because a few people were screaming that they needed an education.

Colleges and Universities have been running on blank checks for 30 years. They've had free reign on anything they want to do and it shows. Multi-billion dollars of new buildings across campuses, colleges themselves "investing" in luxurious apartment complexes that students lease, social engineering/justice indoctrination classes made mandatory, no oversight on teaching, courses, course material or subject.

Here we are.

Education is simply investing in yourself. I believe people need to understand personal finance, obtain an indemand skill that allows them to be productive and support themselves in society.
Then there is lifelong education. Personally, I like to attend Astronomy lectures and other sources. I did keep up with Computer Science because my profession required me to do so. If you want to be a strong contributer in technology, you need to keep up with tech.

Does this answer your question?

 

[JeffKeryk]

This is always the issue. People like you like to poke and bait folks that charge back at you with the real answers. Your side seems to always come out unscathed in these incidents on these forums that won't allow real conversations to take place.

Who did I poke? Saying education is key is poking?

 

[Pew]

You posted it, so help me out here. Your words "It's a requirement in this state to pass a constitution and government test in 8th and 10th grade but not in most states. "
Tell me what state you speak of because it's void of fact, there are no requirements for literacy tests in the USA and have not been for over 5 decades.

Correct about the Academics as first to die. The educated were always the first to be arrested executed. They were the threat to the dictatorship. With that said we also have indoctrination, when a group takes over the thinking and education of the young.

( I think I misread some of your words on another post, sorry about that if I did. This thread has got crazy and I want to go to the beach so goodbye *LOL*)

All good sir, no worries. The literacy test isn't for voting, but rather just to pass highschool. In Illinois (and ~15 other states I think), 8th graders are taught the basics about the US government and how it works. In high school, all 10th graders are required to pass a test about the workings of the government (supreme court, senate, house, president), the roles and responsibilities the 3 branches, and what each branch cannot do. They are also tested about all the amendments of the constitution. If the sophomores cannot pass this test, they will not pass 10th grade.

When I say education is important, I'm not strictly talking about college but rather knowledge as a whole; a diverse work group filled with people of various knowledge, backgrounds, and expertise. Ie: You may not be able to build an entire IT system but I know you can cable an entire building. Various jobs working together is the only way a complex society can continue to improve as it continues to develop. The 1900s was such a huge leap forwards in technological advancement, and in my opinion the biggest leap humanity has ever seen so far. I don't want it to stop there.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Who did I poke? Saying education is key is poking?

 

[pbm]

Bad example and derogatory to many hard working people and business owners. I know people who started slicing cold cuts and own their own business and their business property investments (real estate investments)
I know another who joined the army and got into engineering with them. 6 years later left the army and ultimate outcome is he is a CEO in the defense industry and making numbers that many may not comprehend.

I am glad your kids are doing fine, so are mine. BTW- do you know the CEO of Walmart makes more than your kids? He started out as a worker unloading trucks at Walmart.

Doug McMillon, President and CEO, Walmart Inc.

Doug McMillon is president and CEO of Walmart Inc. Learn about his leadership and vision for the company.

corporate.walmart.com

Sorry if this sounds personal but kind of makes me sick those who look down on occupations over others who make the most of their lives that they/most dont follow the traditional "model" to become what they have. Including Microsoft founder, Dell Computer founder ... the list endless... just pulled this up in seconds
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/50-super-successful-college-dropouts/42/

IN fact some of the worlds most wealthy people were not indoctrinated into a "system" and became some of the most wealthy on earth.
There are also a significant amount of college failures who are riled in debt because of their own poor choices.
Anyway your comments uncalled for and this is the proof.

I didn't mean to be derogatory towards people in those type of jobs. I had a few of those type jobs in my younger days. I meant it for people who "slice cold cuts"* for their entire life because they have no education or other usable skills.

*I consider the guy who starts out 'slicing cold cuts' and ends up owning the deli a success. I've had several friends who followed that path.

PS: I think trade school can often lead to a more rewarding life than a degree in a useless subject.

 

[fdcg27]

This thread has gone to Neptune off topic, but I'll add another way off topic observation.
Back before we had electricity or running water, back in the seventies, an instructor in a class I had signed up to take, who was then an Associate or Assistant Professor, and I still remember the guy's name, said that a college degree was a work permit in that it would always enable a graduate to find well paying work. The figures from the depths of the last recession bear this out, with very low unemployment rates among college graduates and I have always found this to be the case myself.
Food for thought in this wide ranging thread.

 

[CanAmAndMore]

We need a wide range of personalities and interests in people to make a good society.

Some people need to become a dental hygienist, physician, lawyer, forester, accountant, auto mechanic, and stuff. Then we need entrepreneurs who take the sometimes scary path to opening their own business.
But we also really need the fast food restaurant employees, janitors, lumber pilers, skidder operators, truck drivers, receptionists, ticket sellers, factory floor workers, pot hole fillers, hotel maintenance personnel, chambermaids, and more. None are better or worse than the others, nor more or less important.
I hated school so dropped out.
But applaud those who liked it enough to stay and get a good career.
What pisses me off is the clowns who just take college courses for the sake of staying in school to avoid working.
Basket weaving, and study of the tail feathers of the owl, are not really useful courses for most people to take. Oh sure someone should be able to weave a basket, and someone else to study the owls tail feathers...but not nearly as many people as the amount who take these useless courses.
To the educated people who designed the semi trucks and heavy equipment I own, I salute you.
The sharp folks who have made big advances in oil, tires, and engines over the past 100 years, thank you all to.
But to the jerks who have 12 years post secondary education and live in moms basement and never worked a day in your life, and have 20 useless degrees in completely irrelevant things. Go get a job you waste of oxygen.
Any job at all.
There is no such thing as a job which is beneath anyone in my opinion.
If you are a shopping cart collector at walmart, I admire you just as much as any lawyer or dentist.
If you haven't lost all 4 of your limbs, and your IQ is above 40, and you don't work, why not you lazy useless ......

 

[JHZR2]

Single payer would never work in the US because MD's won't take the pay cut, medical schools won't reduce their cost of education, and the AMA will scaremonger the people into believing anyone but a MD can see you.. You then run into problems with rationing of care (i.e. wait times) as capacity is maximized by the population. The US system is broken and it has been broken for over 100 years.

This. Quite the racket.

 

[JeffKeryk]

We need a wide range of personalities and interests in people to make a good society.

Some people need to become a dental hygienist, physician, lawyer, forester, accountant, auto mechanic, and stuff. Then we need entrepreneurs who take the sometimes scary path to opening their own business.
But we also really need the fast food restaurant employees, janitors, lumber pilers, skidder operators, truck drivers, receptionists, ticket sellers, factory floor workers, pot hole fillers, hotel maintenance personnel, chambermaids, and more. None are better or worse than the others, nor more or less important.
I hated school so dropped out.
But applaud those who liked it enough to stay and get a good career.
What pisses me off is the clowns who just take college courses for the sake of staying in school to avoid working.
Basket weaving, and study of the tail feathers of the owl, are not really useful courses for most people to take. Oh sure someone should be able to weave a basket, and someone else to study the owls tail feathers...but not nearly as many people as the amount who take these useless courses.
To the educated people who designed the semi trucks and heavy equipment I own, I salute you.
The sharp folks who have made big advances in oil, tires, and engines over the past 100 years, thank you all to.
But to the jerks who have 12 years post secondary education and live in moms basement and never worked a day in your life, and have 20 useless degrees in completely irrelevant things. Go get a job you waste of oxygen.
Any job at all.
There is no such thing as a job which is beneath anyone in my opinion.
If you are a shopping cart collector at walmart, I admire you just as much as any lawyer or dentist.
If you haven't lost all 4 of your limbs, and your IQ is above 40, and you don't work, why not you lazy useless ......

All work is honorable.

 

[pbm]

Is Canada considered 'single payer'? I ask because a Canadian friend who winters in Florida near us (in her 70s if it matters) just told us she has some medical issues that have caused her to lose a lot of weight since we saw her in March. It appears to be related to diverticulitis (which I also have). Her MD told her to see a hematologist and the first appointment she can get is the first week in October.

As someone who has seen more doctors in the last 2 years* than in my previous 63 years I can say our American system is far from perfect (mostly regarding billing) but at least you can see a doctor in a timely manner. In my wife's western European country it takes weeks to get an MRI unless you pay cash.

-*Cyberknife for Prostate Cancer covered under the WTC because of the weeks I spent working there after 9/11/01 and it's presumptive.

-Emergency surgery for peritonitis exactly a month after Cyberknife. I believe the 5 large doses of radiation caused the peritonitis but the WTC blamed diverticulitis so my insurance had to cover the $150K medical bill (they settled for $122K) with some out of pocket expense for uncovered things. I had been told that I had diverticulosis (the pouches in the intestine that become diverticulitis if they get inflamed or infected) when I had my last 2 colonoscopies....most men over 60 have it...but I never had any issues or symptoms until the radiation.

-3 bouts of diverticulitis this year...1 requiring a 4 day hospital stay and all 3 requiring 2 strong antibiotics. I'm scheduled to see a colorectal surgeon next week regarding a bowel resection which I'll almost certainly get ASAP rather than risk needing a colostomy bag for the rest of my life.

-numerous doctor visits to rule out tumors etc...when I abruptly came down with extremely loud tinnitus. It rattled me a lot and still s*cks but have to deal with it. FWIW my niece is an Audiologist and she says they have never seen so many patients coming in with tinnitus since Covid but I guess we'll never know if it's related.

- and last but not least...3 broken ribs and a bruised lung after a fall from a step ladder 7 weeks ago. Extremely painful ....had to sleep in a recliner until about a week ago because it was too painful in bed. I also think the percocets may have caused the latest bout of diverticulitis because they are known to bind you up.

Aside from this ...life is good....J/K....but I am feeling positive that once I get these issues sorted out my PSI will come down and I'll get on with life.