Paranormal and the rigors of good science.

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Shannow
But you clearly don't get a lot of things...and are quite confidently commenting on and ridiculing them for quite a few years.


Yeah and it's strange that no one proves me wrong.

I've yet to see an article that says ghosts are real.

The basic problem is that the evidence is weak or non existent. It's fine to say that we don't know, but people come to conclusions based on assumptions which haven't be shown to be true.



You have been proven wrong quite a bit. The issue you have you are unable to come to the conclusion you are wrong. Ignorance is supposed to be bliss. I hope you find this to be true.


Sorry, I seem to have missed the part where ghosts have been shown to be real.

I just follow the scientific method. Look at the evidence, weight it and draw your own conclusions. There's a difference between theory and proof that something exists. The default condition is to believe it's not true unless there's some evidence to back it up. Otherwise you're left with being free to believe 6 impossible things before breakfast.

Same with logic, it has to logically flow from your premises to a conclusion. The problem with most faulty logic is that you can't show that your premises are true.

 

[dave1251]

I provided the outline of why the paranormal exists you have to look outside of the yes or no answer. It doesn't matter if you believe of paranormal existence or not. It is what purpose the paranormal serves to the human race. Also the ability of one to hold a touch screen computer in ones hands and to research material more vast than the library of Alexandria in nano seconds was paranormal not long ago. As the ability to hold lighting and control it to shoot another object. Both are now normal.

 

[Wolf359]

You are confusing theory with proof. Sure there's lots of theories out there. I don't think there's evidence that shows that those theories are true. Sometimes the theories come first and then experimental data confirms the theory. Or experimental data is accumulated and then the theories come out to fit the data but sometimes it's not a good fit so new theories have to come out to explain the variations. With your paranormal, I don't think you have any valid data or any repeatable, reproducible experimental data to fit the theories. That is after all the hallmark of the scientific method.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by sloinker
...Has there actually ever been a controlled study concerning any of the "scientific" devices used on these shows?

I have not seen any controlled studies to support existence of ghosts or spirit entities. I have seen these TV haunted house and Paranormal shows where they carry around EMF meters and IR cameras but no scientific study has been made to verify anything was actually detected. (One thing I have never seen on any of these programs is an instrument called a Spectrum Analyzer which could detect any EM signal from 10kHz to 5 GigaHz or more).

One has to ask themselves these questions about this inquiry:

Q1: What is the RF or EMF spectra of these entities?

Q2: If we don't know or don't have any idea of the RF or EMF spectra of these entities, how can they possibly be detected with current scientific instrumentation?

Q3: What physical makeup do these entities possess? Are they plasma, are they pure energy (and what type), are they purely Quantum Mechanical?

Q4: What if these entities DO exist but exist in another dimension which, in that dimension, there is an entirely different and separate space-time epoch occurring, than that which is in our present dimension and epoch?

My personal feeling is that IF THIS IS the case, NO entity can cross from one Dimension to another.

 

[fisher83]

Just because a person doesn't have an explanation for something in no way means that it is supernatural, paranormal, etc. That being said, I think it is human nature to want to know the answer to every bump in the night or every flash of light in the sky. People watch these shows looking for answers. Anything remotely resembling evidence is all it takes to reinforce their predetermined conclusion that they saw a ghost, aliens, Bigfoot and so on. Is the evidence credible? I don't think so. Is it effective as entertainment? Absolutely.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Nothing but nonsense and someone out to make a buck.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by MolaKule


Q4: What if these entities DO exist but exist in another dimension which, in that dimension, there is an entirely different and separate space-time epoch occurring, than that which is in our present dimension and epoch?

My personal feeling is that IF THIS IS the case, NO entity can cross from one Dimension to another.


My personal feeling is that cosciousness exists outside the meat robot, for a starter.

Also that all planes of existance are running in paallel, just like every T.V. station is broadcasting at once.

We have the reciever for our channel (body), and can't generally see all the other channels around us...just like when you are watching one channel, the TV is not equipped at that time to see all the others.

Under certain circumstances, things "leak", or get detuned, and you start to get bleeding across the channels.

A lot of the SRI work was quite compelling that there's something else to our existance.

Remember also, that it wasn't that long ago that metal rocks, streaking across the sky were supernatural, and made swords of tremndous stregth and durability (and thus themselves were magic)

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by MolaKule


Q4: What if these entities DO exist but exist in another dimension which, in that dimension, there is an entirely different and separate space-time epoch occurring, than that which is in our present dimension and epoch?

My personal feeling is that IF THIS IS the case, NO entity can cross from one Dimension to another.


My personal feeling is that cosciousness exists outside the meat robot, for a starter.

Also that all planes of existance are running in paallel, just like every T.V. station is broadcasting at once.

We have the reciever for our channel (body), and can't generally see all the other channels around us...just like when you are watching one channel, the TV is not equipped at that time to see all the others.

Under certain circumstances, things "leak", or get detuned, and you start to get bleeding across the channels.

A lot of the SRI work was quite compelling that there's something else to our existance.

Remember also, that it wasn't that long ago that metal rocks, streaking across the sky were supernatural, and made swords of tremndous stregth and durability (and thus themselves were magic)


It's all a nice theory, but what about the interface mechanism?

I like the Everett interpretation too which basically says that every quantum outcome is realized in some other universe and just because the spin state of a particle is up or down, it means that there's some other universe where it's the opposite. So technically an infinite number of possible universes. But I don't buy it because there's no way to show that there's multiple universes.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by MolaKule


Q4: What if these entities DO exist but exist in another dimension which, in that dimension, there is an entirely different and separate space-time epoch occurring, than that which is in our present dimension and epoch?

My personal feeling is that IF THIS IS the case, NO entity can cross from one Dimension to another.


My personal feeling is that cosciousness exists outside the meat robot, for a starter.

Also that all planes of existance are running in paallel, just like every T.V. station is broadcasting at once.

We have the reciever for our channel (body), and can't generally see all the other channels around us...just like when you are watching one channel, the TV is not equipped at that time to see all the others.

Under certain circumstances, things "leak", or get detuned, and you start to get bleeding across the channels.

A lot of the SRI work was quite compelling that there's something else to our existance.

Remember also, that it wasn't that long ago that metal rocks, streaking across the sky were supernatural, and made swords of tremndous stregth and durability (and thus themselves were magic)


It's all a nice theory, but what about the interface mechanism?

I like the Everett interpretation too which basically says that every quantum outcome is realized in some other universe and just because the spin state of a particle is up or down, it means that there's some other universe where it's the opposite. So technically an infinite number of possible universes. But I don't buy it because there's no way to show that there's multiple universes.



String theory and multiple universes are purely mathematical constructs and conjectures. For the Everette interpretation, how can one possibly know if the same physical laws exist and the same rules apply in an alternate or parallel universe?

In science, one strives to explain theories in terms of observables or knowns. I am very skeptical of any theory that has to invoke multi-dimensions to explain the 3D space in which we live. Now, I can add a mathematical construct called space-time or space-velocity term as an added dimension to explain for example time-dilation in different reference frames, but our reality exists in 3D space.

I think that when we are discussing the "supernatural" or paranormal were not discussing rocks streaking across the sky, but the way the word is used today invokes ghosts and swirling beings knocking dishes off counters and supposed spirits closing doors or making stairs squeak.

I do think intelligence, IQ, innovation, design, conceptualization, or what have you comes from an organ that is more than just physics and chemistry. There is certainly more to the brain than what we can explain.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by MolaKule


Q4: What if these entities DO exist but exist in another dimension which, in that dimension, there is an entirely different and separate space-time epoch occurring, than that which is in our present dimension and epoch?

My personal feeling is that IF THIS IS the case, NO entity can cross from one Dimension to another.


My personal feeling is that cosciousness exists outside the meat robot, for a starter.

Also that all planes of existance are running in paallel, just like every T.V. station is broadcasting at once.

We have the reciever for our channel (body), and can't generally see all the other channels around us...just like when you are watching one channel, the TV is not equipped at that time to see all the others.

Under certain circumstances, things "leak", or get detuned, and you start to get bleeding across the channels.

A lot of the SRI work was quite compelling that there's something else to our existance.

Remember also, that it wasn't that long ago that metal rocks, streaking across the sky were supernatural, and made swords of tremndous stregth and durability (and thus themselves were magic)


It's all a nice theory, but what about the interface mechanism?

I like the Everett interpretation too which basically says that every quantum outcome is realized in some other universe and just because the spin state of a particle is up or down, it means that there's some other universe where it's the opposite. So technically an infinite number of possible universes. But I don't buy it because there's no way to show that there's multiple universes.



String theory and multiple universes are purely mathematical constructs and conjectures. For the Everette interpretation, how can one possibly know if the same physical laws exist and the same rules apply in an alternate or parallel universe?

In science, one strives to explain theories in terms of observables or knowns. I am very skeptical of any theory that has to invoke multi-dimensions to explain the 3D space in which we live. Now, I can add a mathematical construct called space-time or space-velocity term as an added dimension to explain for example time-dilation in different reference frames, but our reality exists in 3D space.


I think the point of the Everett interpretation is that it explains how you have instantaneous communication between the spin states of two entangled particles. Now if there a different universe per quantum event, there's no need for instantaneous communication. You just happen to be in the one universe where it's in one state and there's another one where it's in another state. So it solves one problem but introduces a bunch of other problems. A more likely parallel would be when people thought that there was a kind of ether that light traveled through.

But yeah, string theory and Everett interpretation is all theory. It's different when people put out their own theories and believe it to be true though and push that the theories are true without any evidence to back it up.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Wolf359

I think the point of the Everett interpretation is that it explains how you have instantaneous communication between the spin states of two entangled particles. Now if there a different universe per quantum event, there's no need for instantaneous communication..


Ah, except if you are using the entanglement to transfer information, consciousness steps in, and the information (entanglement) happens at light speed or slower.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Wolf359

I think the point of the Everett interpretation is that it explains how you have instantaneous communication between the spin states of two entangled particles. Now if there a different universe per quantum event, there's no need for instantaneous communication..


Ah, except if you are using the entanglement to transfer information, consciousness steps in, and the information (entanglement) happens at light speed or slower.


I'm not really sure you're referring to things correctly. Quantum entanglement comes from the EPR paradox where the first E refers to Einstein. He referred to it as spooky action at a distance and thought quantum mechanics was incomplete as there must have been some hidden variable that explained how two particles at the opposite ends of the universe could instantly communicate their spin states once a measurement is taken. It doesn't violate relatively though because you can't use it to transmit information because while one measurement instantly tells you the status of the other particle, you still must communicate the status via speed of light limitations. The status of the particles are in superposition before the measurement and it's random so you can't set the status in advance. And you can't copy it because once you read it, the entanglement is broken. And Bell's inequality says that there's no hidden variable so entanglement is one of those top mysteries in science up there with dark matter, dark energy, black hole information loss paradox, measurement problem, etc. But entanglement is real and some of the latest experiments show that it has to happen at least 15,000 times faster than the speed of light as they've done measurements simultaneously. Some of those experiments have been done from satellites and from the opposites ends of a city. That's why it has good applications for quantum computing and quantum encryption.

Let's not even get into zero point energy or vacuum energy.

 

[JLTD]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by MolaKule


Q4: What if these entities DO exist but exist in another dimension which, in that dimension, there is an entirely different and separate space-time epoch occurring, than that which is in our present dimension and epoch?

My personal feeling is that IF THIS IS the case, NO entity can cross from one Dimension to another.


My personal feeling is that cosciousness exists outside the meat robot, for a starter.

Also that all planes of existance are running in paallel, just like every T.V. station is broadcasting at once.

We have the reciever for our channel (body), and can't generally see all the other channels around us...just like when you are watching one channel, the TV is not equipped at that time to see all the others.

Under certain circumstances, things "leak", or get detuned, and you start to get bleeding across the channels.

A lot of the SRI work was quite compelling that there's something else to our existance.

Remember also, that it wasn't that long ago that metal rocks, streaking across the sky were supernatural, and made swords of tremndous stregth and durability (and thus themselves were magic)


Two solid posts right there. I'd like to suggest we do not yet have the technology to reliably detect/prove the existence (or non existence) of other dimensional beings.

We did not have the technology to detect radiation until just over 120 years ago...quarks even more recently. Imagine what we'll know tomorrow.

 

[MolaKule]

Quantum Entanglement

I think when we discuss Physics phraseology and concepts we should probably attempt to define them, at least in terms of a lowest common denominator.

Determining how systems combine is a major part of the efforts in physics. For example, when an outside photon or a neutron interacts with an atom, something happens with this resultant combination and this then becomes a new system.

So without delving into the equations of Quantum Entanglement, such as Tensor Product Matrices, I will lay out some definitions with a short explanation.

Before we do that let me say that Quantum Mechanics is a consistent calculus of probabilities. Think about that for awhile.

A. Quantum Entanglement is the study of the combining of Quantum Systems:

Determining how systems combine is a major part of the efforts in physics.

For example, when an outside photon or a neutron interacts with an atom, something happens with this resultant combination and this then becomes a new system.

B. Entanglement is the Quantum Mechanical generalization of Correlation.

Correlation is the mutual relationship or connection between two or more things.

C. Quantum Mechanical Entanglement enforces "Locality."

What we mean here by locality here is it is impossible to send a signal faster than light.

D. An entangled Quantum Mechanical system contains no information about its individual subcomponents.

For example, one can measure the total energy of a two-spin composite system, but the energy of each separate spin system cannot be measured. In an entangled system there is nothing to know beyond what is encoded in the state-vector description. We can know everything about a composite system, but still know nothing about its constituent parts.

Popular explanations of Quantum Mechanics and Entanglement often delve into the paranormal, the esoteric, and the metaphysical, but this is not what Quantum Mechanics is about.

For those interested in further investigating just Quantum Mechanics and or Quantum Entanglement, send me a PM for references.