Oil surface tension

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Hammehead

You can compare surface tension between oils, by droppin it in water at 25C and see the one that beads up faster and remains most floating is the winner.




1) And you'll be quoting "bead-up-speed" and "floatingness" to how many decimal places of what?

But maybe I missed something, or there's been a breakthrough.


1) PERCEPTION in comparison DROP BEHAVIOUR, UPON use of the senses like vision and time. I´m sure you can define a winner with that. That´s because the OP is Lacking the correct equipment to COMPARE NOT MEASURE (PLEASE read my post before atempt to criticize). So, would you have a better approach?


I thought of a petri dish, (might have needed something bigger) hupodermic syringe, and a digital camera on a stand taking "movie" or time lapse pictures, with maybe one of the freeware image analysis programs to get numbers out of the pictures. Perhaps I should have tried it but the reading put me off.

IIRC Benjamin Franklin used Clapham Common Pond and a teaspoon.(covered about half an acre) Pretty clever guy by all accounts (apart from the British after the War of Independance, I suppose) but he may not have thought of using a digital camera.

 

[Hammehead]

sO, YOU´RE MEASURING drop moviments IN WATER, EH?

Riight.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/376/surface-tension-test

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead
sO, YOU´RE MEASURING drop moviments IN WATER, EH?

Riight.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/376/surface-tension-test


Yeh, right. I've seen that article. I don't have time to re-read it right now, but the opening line is significant.

In all of my years in oil analysis, I cannot recall a single time when data from a surface tension (ST) or interfacial tension test (IFT) appeared on a routine analytical report, aside from transformer oil analysis

So if (as admittedly I assumed) we're talking here about motor oil, one would have to wonder why not.

Then one might have a look at the apparautus described and consider whether one might have a snowball in hells chance of improvising something like that on a DIY basis.

Then one might read around a bit more on the different fiddly and temperamental methods in use.

Then if one was still optimistic about trying them, one would be an optimist.

I'm not.

 

[Nyogtha]

That article is certainly flawed stating motor oil surface tension is similar in effect to that of water. Water is an extremely polar substance with hydrogen bonding.

"Pure water has high surface tension due to its high polarity. Likewise, a pure mineral base oil has a high surface tension due to its high nonpolarity."

For mineral base oil it should read "low surface tension".

Why futz with contaminating water and subjective eyeball tests? Why not just get some capillary tubes and measure the height each oil tested climbs up a tube, at same temperature and atmospheric pressure? The oil that climbs the shortest distance has the highest surface tension.

 

[Garak]

No need to bring common sense and a reasonable experimental method into this now.

As for the article's error you pointed out, that certainly isn't the first facepalm moment with respect to the basics I've come across in that publication.

 

[Nyogtha]

Did it to myself - correction in red below.
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
That article is certainly flawed stating motor oil surface tension is similar in effect to that of water. Water is an extremely polar substance with hydrogen bonding.

"Pure water has high surface tension due to its high polarity. Likewise, a pure mineral base oil has a high surface tension due to its high nonpolarity."

For mineral base oil it should read "low surface tension".

Why futz with contaminating water and subjective eyeball tests? Why not just get some capillary tubes and measure the height each oil tested climbs up a tube, at same temperature and atmospheric pressure? The oil that climbs the longest distance has the highest surface tension.


Method with equation

LINK

 

[Hammehead]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Careful, challenging certain members on here may garner you a nasty PM.

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Hammehead
sO, YOU´RE MEASURING drop moviments IN WATER, EH?

Riight.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/376/surface-tension-test


Yeh, right. I've seen that article. I don't have time to re-read it right now, but the opening line is significant.

In all of my years in oil analysis, I cannot recall a single time when data from a surface tension (ST) or interfacial tension test (IFT) appeared on a routine analytical report, aside from transformer oil analysis

So if (as admittedly I assumed) we're talking here about motor oil, one would have to wonder why not.

Then one might have a look at the apparautus described and consider whether one might have a snowball in hells chance of improvising something like that on a DIY basis.

Then one might read around a bit more on the different fiddly and temperamental methods in use.

Then if one was still optimistic about trying them, one would be an optimist.

I'm not.


And you have keep pushing even though, right kschchn? Since you don´t get a vacation, going to Ignore list now.

 

[Hammehead]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
That article is certainly flawed stating motor oil surface tension is similar in effect to that of water. Water is an extremely polar substance with hydrogen bonding.

"Pure water has high surface tension due to its high polarity. Likewise, a pure mineral base oil has a high surface tension due to its high nonpolarity."

For mineral base oil it should read "low surface tension".

Why futz with contaminating water and subjective eyeball tests? Why not just get some capillary tubes and measure the height each oil tested climbs up a tube, at same temperature and atmospheric pressure? The oil that climbs the shortest distance has the highest surface tension.


Huumm, good, rsrsrs. On the contrary, IMO. The highest surface tension, the higher it rises on a capilary tube. And that quotation of yours is wrong since polar as with non polar liquids also have high surface tension according to the text and you misquoted it to convenience? The salts at addpack turns the finished oil as lower surface tension.
AGood sense Garak?

And its just a drop of oil, so there´s no `fuzzing with contaminating water involved`. Should op buy capilary tubes on the internet or the next lab shop?

 

[Garak]

He already explained his typo, which I didn't notice. He mentioned capillary tubes and I skimmed the rest, since I knew what he was proposing right away.

 

[Nyogtha]

Looks like you failed to read post 4772858 Hammehead - why didn't you choose to copy my corrected post? It predates your latest post here by 50 minutes.

A lab shop, a pharmacy specializing in medical supplies (glass capillary tubes are widely used in blood testing labs), are the first easy peasy spots to find glass capillary tubes that come to my mind. A plasma donation center would be another, and could get paid for a plasma donation while there. Perhaps the OP has a kid taking a science class where he could ask the instructor for a few such tubes. Here's a Google Shopping link for you.

LINK


I'm guessing you've never taken such a science class and have zero first-hand experience in these matters based on your post.

Water contaminated with oil droplets is a major environmental contaminant in stormwater runoff BTW. The oil in water droplet technique in the posted article has nothing in it for quantitative measurement, just futzing with subjective Eyeball Mark 1 hoodoo for machine & turbine oils, not something developed for lubricants formulated for and exposed to a combustion process environment.

Your MO hasn't changed one bit. You have no real knowledge of dipole moments and molecular polarity, especially with quantification.

Prior Such Posts Link

 

[Shannow]

Interfacial tension in turbine oils (exposed to high heat, and steam, lots of entrained air and bubbles)...varnish is quite polar, and as it forms interfacial tension goes down....same with Tx oils.

They aren't loaded with additives, dispersants and whatnot, and the test is useful WRT failure modes in those machines.

OP wants (for some reason to increase surface tension), not measure degradation.

Get a glass eyedopper and a gas torch...

 

[Hammehead]

Look at this!!! That´s enough to see with what we have here...

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Water contaminated with oil droplets is a major environmental contaminant in stormwater runoff BTW .


Well, if you NEver thought to drop the content of such experiment the little tube with water/oil (30 ml of contaminat) on the OIL RECYCLE BIN?? You´re really not as smart as you sell yourself...
Why? It would ruin perfect good oil, nehh?

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Look at this!!! That´s enough to see with what we have here...

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Water contaminated with oil droplets is a major environmental contaminant in stormwater runoff BTW .


Well, if you NEver thought to drop the content of such experiment the little tube with water/oil (30 ml of contaminat) on the OIL RECYCLE BIN?? You´re really not as smart as you sell yourself...
Why? It would ruin perfect good oil, nehh?

Well personally I don't see the applicability of what you keep going on about to the OP's request, nor to anything I do with automotive fluids. You choose to ignore you're still taking water that wasn't previously contaminated and choosing to contaminate it regardless of how you choose to dispose of it. And as Shannow has pointed out,that isn't really measuring surface tension between the oil and air, but instead is measuring interfacial tension between oil and previously uncontaminated water. Two related, but different, things with different quantification. The OP never asked about finding an oil with specific interfacial tension properties with water.

This is much like the last similar set of posts from you that I supplied the link to, where you chose to construe adding ethanol to gasoline posted by the OP to somehow being about adding ethanol to E85 or E100, made claims about deposits, but never supplied a single supporting link. Plus clearly never understood the chemistry nor material physical properties involved. Deja vu here.

And still no explanation why you chose to copy & reply to my earler corrected post even though it preceded yours by close to an hour. Does that mean the answer to that is self-evident?

 

[Ducked]

A review of 12 methods. Dunno how authoritative it is (English is a bit dodgy) because I probably don't really understand any of them, but maybe it'd serve as a convenient summary.

http://zzm.umcs.lublin.pl/Wyklad/FGF-Ang/2A.F.G.F. Surface tension.pdf

They all look pretty horrible to me.

I note the capilliary rise method detailed above (which I dont really understand either since I'm not clear how adhesive and cohesive forces are distinguished) requires a travelling microscope, so that seems to rule it out anyway for us poor folks.

 

[Nyogtha]

Depends on desired precision, said microscope is part of the apparatus listed for that experiment but is absolutely not required. That link was used to illustrate the basic principle and equations involved for relationships. Here it is more simplified as I originally posted, hopefully simple enough - Garak certainly understood the principles & simple methodology sans links.

https://www.teachengineering.org/lessons/view/duk_surfacetensionunit_less2

YouTube Video (there are many more)

 

[Garak]

Yes, exactly. The concept is covered in any first year chemistry course and first year chemistry students' lab lockers are generally stocked with capillary tubes. You're not proposing anything exotic, convoluted, or overly complex.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: cpetroff
Looking for a low viscosity oil with a high surface tension. Does PAO 6 or mineral oil have a higher surface tension at room temperature? Any additives that could increase surface tension? Other types of oils that have higher surface tension? Any ideas on how to measure surface tension?


I noticed no one asked, "what is the application" and why would one want an oil with a high surface tension?

Most want a lubricant that will either spread on or "tack" to mechanical components. Tackifiers help the lubricant stick to a component, whereas surfactants help the lubricant spread in order to deliver additive to the surface.

In most lubricants, one uses a Foam Inhibitor to reduce foaming. Foam Inhibitors reduce the surface tension in oil in order to "burst" air bubbles.

 

[BrocLuno]

One indirect reference to surface tension is the difference between "synthetic" oils and dino oils. Before that few rounds of formulations, Mobil1 was touted as full synthetic in the "real" sense. And I almost always had issues with it being noisy on cold start in old school flat tappet V8 engines. Whereas an equal viscosity say Chevron Supreme would be much quieter (highly refined dino oil).

Best I could figure out, the synthetic "drained off" the capillary voids and just left a minimum basic oil film. The dino had higher surface tension and better capillary fill, so there was more oil left in voids and spaces so the engine started with a better, or fuller cushion.

I was always accused of being a M1 basher, but I am not. I am running it in my current pick-up and have more on hand for that engine. It's a low mileage motor (to me,
So there is something to surface tension and a mix of molecular make up in oils. I turn out not to be a fan of pure one molecule oils. They don't seem to work well in older worn engines that sit between cold starts. Some of the tractors will sit for months between starts. No synthetics for them ...

I know this is not scientific. Just lay person observations. But it's repeatable, and I have repeated the tests trying to find the right oils for the engine at hand. So I'll stick by it unless someone can offer another way ...

 

[4WD]

From 1990 to now … have been leaving GM pickups sitting for 3 weeks to 4 weeks with Mobil 1 in them …
Will get back from the EU in a couple weeks … bet I don’t get any of this since I never have …

 

[Hammehead]

Some still don´t get the polarity of varnish in metal here. That´s sad.