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It was a nice blue planet....
oil production nearing peak..then what?
- Thread starter ziggy
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Exactly..once you start using huge amounts of energy to extract oil from oil sands and liquefy coal planet earth = history. There is only so much oxygen produced on this here planet.
Once again it is our own fault. We are too selfish. Consider all the news about ice melting in the far north. It has no DIRECT on 99.99% of americans, or chinese, or europeans. Even though it is a clear sign of future trouble that will affect the entire planet we don't care so long our own house stands and is not damaged by weather.
Even a Cat5 Katrina that DID hit a major american city is long gone from public interest. Thus all companies, oil companies and others, are free to do whatever they like and take no heed of environmental costs.
I read an article about oil sands here in Canada. Seems that when oil is "washed" out of sand, there are still huge quantities of extremely toxic sludge left which oil companies simply dump into massive lakes. In theory they are supposed to clean ii up later. Of course, the costs for such a cleanup will be so high that companies will go bankrupt before they finish cleanup. However, at the moment everyone in Alberta is happy to collect royalties from oil companies and don't make any fuss about environmental impact.
Let's face the truth - we are selfish and are happy to screw our grandchildren as they'll be left with the mess to cleanup. Sad
I think an important point here is that previously when demand has increased the major oil producers have responded with more output. They may no longer be able to do this. There is still plenty of oil but the demand may well outstrip the supply. Whether it be tar sands or new finds in the Gulf of Mexico they may only make up for decreased production else where.
The oil companies CAN increase output. However, they chose not to do so, because they can then claim that their obscene price increases are due to the laws of supply and demand. They purposely make sure that the supply just about matches the demand. The price at the pump is determined by two things, how much OPEC thinks that they can price gouge us, and how much the oil companies think that they can price gouge us. The laws of supply and demand have nothing to do with it. In the early part of the last century, the states and federal government decided that because the public simply cannot do without certain things (such as electricity and water) and since the companies providing those things were working together to fix prices and price gouge the public, laws were needed (and put in place) to stop price collusion, price fixing, and price gouging. The laws worked, and we got water and electricity at reasonable prices, while the companies made a reasonable profit. Of course, these regulations have now either been repealed or are ignored by government. The result has been a return to the old, standard, operating procedure by the companies, price collusion, price fixing, and price gouging. To stop this with respect to oil, we need to regulate the oil companies and what they charge, just as we used to regulate the water and electriclty companies. And don't tell me that it wouldn't work. It worked in the last centrury for the water and electricity companies and it would work in this century for the oil companies.
At the same time, we need to counter OPEC with an OFEC (Organization of Food Exporting Countries). The OPEC nations need the unprocessed (such as grains) and the processed food products produced by such nations as the US, Canada, and Australia to feed their people. The food producing countries should create an OFEC. They should then increase the price of food exports by the OFEC nations to the OPEC nations in the amount necessary to recoup that part of the price that OPEC charges for oil that is determined to be above a reasonable price. The money gained from the extra charge for the food would then be returned to those people in the OFEC countries that use petroleum products, primarily gas of course. A mechanism could be put in place by which people keep track of how much gas they buy (with adequate proof of those purchases), so that OFEC would know how much to reimburse the people for that part of their gas purchases that is determined to be the result of price gouging by OPEC.
At the same time, we need to counter OPEC with an OFEC (Organization of Food Exporting Countries). The OPEC nations need the unprocessed (such as grains) and the processed food products produced by such nations as the US, Canada, and Australia to feed their people. The food producing countries should create an OFEC. They should then increase the price of food exports by the OFEC nations to the OPEC nations in the amount necessary to recoup that part of the price that OPEC charges for oil that is determined to be above a reasonable price. The money gained from the extra charge for the food would then be returned to those people in the OFEC countries that use petroleum products, primarily gas of course. A mechanism could be put in place by which people keep track of how much gas they buy (with adequate proof of those purchases), so that OFEC would know how much to reimburse the people for that part of their gas purchases that is determined to be the result of price gouging by OPEC.
The oil companies CAN increase output. However, they chose not to do so, because they can then claim that their obscene price increases are due to the laws of supply and demand. They purposely make sure that the supply just about matches the demand. The price at the pump is determined by two things, how much OPEC thinks that they can price gouge us, and how much the oil companies think that they can price gouge us. The laws of supply and demand have nothing to do with it. In the early part of the last century, the states and federal government decided that because the public simply cannot do without certain things (such as electricity and water) and since the companies providing those things were working together to fix prices and price gouge the public, laws were needed (and put in place) to stop price collusion, price fixing, and price gouging. The laws worked, and we got water and electricity at reasonable prices, while the companies made a reasonable profit. Of course, these regulations have now either been repealed or are ignored by government. The result has been a return to the old, standard, operating procedure by the companies, price collusion, price fixing, and price gouging. To stop this with respect to oil, we need to regulate the oil companies and what they charge, just as we used to regulate the water and electriclty companies. And don't tell me that it wouldn't work. It worked in the last centrury for the water and electricity companies and it would work in this century for the oil companies.
At the same time, we need to counter OPEC with an OFEC (Organization of Food Exporting Countries). The OPEC nations need the unprocessed (such as grains) and the processed food products produced by such nations as the US, Canada, and Australia to feed their people. The food producing countries should create an OFEC. They should then increase the price of food exports by the OFEC nations to the OPEC nations in the amount necessary to recoup that part of the price that OPEC charges for oil that is determined to be above a reasonable price. The money gained from the extra charge for the food would then be returned to those people in the OFEC countries that use petroleum products, primarily gas of course. A mechanism could be put in place by which people keep track of how much gas they buy (with adequate proof of those purchases), so that OFEC would know how much to reimburse the people for that part of their gas purchases that is determined to be the result of price gouging by OPEC.
At the same time, we need to counter OPEC with an OFEC (Organization of Food Exporting Countries). The OPEC nations need the unprocessed (such as grains) and the processed food products produced by such nations as the US, Canada, and Australia to feed their people. The food producing countries should create an OFEC. They should then increase the price of food exports by the OFEC nations to the OPEC nations in the amount necessary to recoup that part of the price that OPEC charges for oil that is determined to be above a reasonable price. The money gained from the extra charge for the food would then be returned to those people in the OFEC countries that use petroleum products, primarily gas of course. A mechanism could be put in place by which people keep track of how much gas they buy (with adequate proof of those purchases), so that OFEC would know how much to reimburse the people for that part of their gas purchases that is determined to be the result of price gouging by OPEC.
China is an example of a regulated oil market. Seems they froze fuel prices for more than a year. Now surprise surprise there are shortages. Sounds familiar?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/ap_on_bi_ge/china_fuel_prices_10
Certainly from time to time we are gouged and they charge too much. However the threat of regulation keeps bringing them back in line. On averagre they are not overcharging too much.
If you take a closer look at oil sands and other NEW oil developments you will realize that for new oil you'll have to pay $5 and $6 and more per gallon. It has nothing to do with gouging. The new developments are much more expensive. Simple as that.
As for the OFEC suggestion, you are insane and incredibly selfish. How can you compare your own lazy ---- needing SUV transportation (hence always more and more oil) with a starving person in Africa and Asia????? Do I really need to point out that one can live without oil but not without food????
People denied food have no alternative but to pickup any weapon available and go to the people who do have food to "persuade" them to share. Otherwise they can only lie down and die. So you are not doing anything positive or solving any problems by limiting food distribution.
In fact, the current price increases are the proof that OPEC is once again powerless. Actually it become less and less relevant. OPEC with Saudia Arabian leaderships has been trying to keep price down for the past decade or so. They have been successful until the last 2-3 years. Since now oil price is moving up so fast it is a clear indication that OPEN and Saudia Arabia are powerless to stop it. They cannot pump more, at least not easily.
Therefore your anger is misplaced. At the end of the day consumers have to face their responsibilities and stop their infinite demand increase. You should be angry with yourself. Until we stop driving SUVs and pickups, cancel frivulous trips, etc. oil price will keep going up. Period.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/ap_on_bi_ge/china_fuel_prices_10
Certainly from time to time we are gouged and they charge too much. However the threat of regulation keeps bringing them back in line. On averagre they are not overcharging too much.
If you take a closer look at oil sands and other NEW oil developments you will realize that for new oil you'll have to pay $5 and $6 and more per gallon. It has nothing to do with gouging. The new developments are much more expensive. Simple as that.
As for the OFEC suggestion, you are insane and incredibly selfish. How can you compare your own lazy ---- needing SUV transportation (hence always more and more oil) with a starving person in Africa and Asia????? Do I really need to point out that one can live without oil but not without food????
People denied food have no alternative but to pickup any weapon available and go to the people who do have food to "persuade" them to share. Otherwise they can only lie down and die. So you are not doing anything positive or solving any problems by limiting food distribution.
In fact, the current price increases are the proof that OPEC is once again powerless. Actually it become less and less relevant. OPEC with Saudia Arabian leaderships has been trying to keep price down for the past decade or so. They have been successful until the last 2-3 years. Since now oil price is moving up so fast it is a clear indication that OPEN and Saudia Arabia are powerless to stop it. They cannot pump more, at least not easily.
Therefore your anger is misplaced. At the end of the day consumers have to face their responsibilities and stop their infinite demand increase. You should be angry with yourself. Until we stop driving SUVs and pickups, cancel frivulous trips, etc. oil price will keep going up. Period.
Originally Posted By: jmac
Quote:
As for the OFEC suggestion, you are insane and incredibly selfish. How can you compare your own lazy ---- needing SUV transportation (hence always more and more oil) with a starving person in Africa and Asia????? Do I really need to point out that one can live without oil but not without food????
In todays world, oil=food. Without oil, or hydrocarbon energy, food production would be something like 20% of what it is now.
And we suppose this incredible dependance on oil was never a plan executed over 70yrs ago to control humanity in every aspect of their life, later on. We just assume it kind of happened this way, to yeild such specific results... *watches american idol and LOST*
Quote:
As for the OFEC suggestion, you are insane and incredibly selfish. How can you compare your own lazy ---- needing SUV transportation (hence always more and more oil) with a starving person in Africa and Asia????? Do I really need to point out that one can live without oil but not without food????
In todays world, oil=food. Without oil, or hydrocarbon energy, food production would be something like 20% of what it is now.
And we suppose this incredible dependance on oil was never a plan executed over 70yrs ago to control humanity in every aspect of their life, later on. We just assume it kind of happened this way, to yeild such specific results... *watches american idol and LOST*
I thought the OFEC idea was really a good one. They dont have to starve to death, just give us the oil and eat. If they pick up there guns, we have more and bigger guns. Problem is that we feel we have to be so civil and generous like we are guilty for being prosperous. Hold them at ransom, like they do us. All we are to them is a customer and that is all the rest of the world should become to us.
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