Oil for 2017 Honda Civic Type-R

[newbe46]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just can't wrap my head around ever needing a 0W anything unless you live in the middle of Antarctica on the East Antarctic Plateau. The 0W is coming out of my Honda next oil change and being replaced with 5W20.


The 0W in 0W-XX refers to the viscosity when the oil is NOT at the operating temperature while the XX is the viscosity when oil is at the operating temperature. No?


SAE Viscosity Grade
Low-Temperature ( ˚C) Cranking Viscosity (3), mPa-s Max Low-Temperature (˚C) Pumping Viscosity (4), mPa-s Max with No Yield Stress (4)
0W 6200 at -35C 60000 at -40C
5W 6600 at -30C 60000 at -35C
10W 7000 at -25C 60000 at -30C
15W 7000 at -20C 60000 at -25C
20W 9500 at -15C 60000 at -20C
25W 13000 at -10C 60000 at -15C

Sorry, this isn't coming out right...CCS on the left and MRV on the right. I'll try to figure out how to copy the table later.


So does that mean if the viscosity at operating temperature is the one we worry about, a higher weight oil such as 0W-30 or 0W-40 should be used?

My understanding is that most of the engine wear comes from startup when oil flow is at the lowest, unless of course the engine is operating in track condition most of the time. We should aim for better flow at low temp but maintain viscosity at high temp?

 

[kschachn]

It's a limit of pumpability at low temperatures, not flow. And it only really matters at temperatures below (or well below) 0F.

As long as you are not flirting with temperatures like that then yes it is the second number that matters.

 

[parshisa]

Honda Civic 1.5T

 

[dblshock]

API for sure, at a minimum 5/30 Mobil1 HTO-06 better Edge 0/40 and start soon.

 

[newbe46]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
It's a limit of pumpability at low temperatures, not flow. And it only really matters at temperatures below (or well below) 0F.

As long as you are not flirting with temperatures like that then yes it is the second number that matters.


Regarding the OP, if the engine never gets hot enough to let the oil goes too thin, does it mean putting a heavier oil will sacrifice the power output? Hence, a 0W-20 will suffice a daily commute and hard driving on weekends?

 

[wemay]

IMO, dilution will occur so the most important thing is OCI. I'd keep it to 5K miles using whatever your favorite 0W-20 synthetic oil is.

Get a baseline UOA done and adjust from there.

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just can't wrap my head around ever needing a 0W anything unless you live in the middle of Antarctica on the East Antarctic Plateau. The 0W is coming out of my Honda next oil change and being replaced with 5W20.


Why? The thinner the oil at startup the better.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: newbe46
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just can't wrap my head around ever needing a 0W anything unless you live in the middle of Antarctica on the East Antarctic Plateau. The 0W is coming out of my Honda next oil change and being replaced with 5W20.


The 0W in 0W-XX refers to the viscosity when the oil is NOT at the operating temperature while the XX is the viscosity when oil is at the operating temperature. No?


SAE Viscosity Grade
Low-Temperature ( ˚C) Cranking Viscosity (3), mPa-s Max Low-Temperature (˚C) Pumping Viscosity (4), mPa-s Max with No Yield Stress (4)
0W 6200 at -35C 60000 at -40C
5W 6600 at -30C 60000 at -35C
10W 7000 at -25C 60000 at -30C
15W 7000 at -20C 60000 at -25C
20W 9500 at -15C 60000 at -20C
25W 13000 at -10C 60000 at -15C

Sorry, this isn't coming out right...CCS on the left and MRV on the right. I'll try to figure out how to copy the table later.


So does that mean if the viscosity at operating temperature is the one we worry about, a higher weight oil such as 0W-30 or 0W-40 should be used?

My understanding is that most of the engine wear comes from startup when oil flow is at the lowest, unless of course the engine is operating in track condition most of the time. We should aim for better flow at low temp but maintain viscosity at high temp?


Yes, if you really need high viscosity at operating temps XW40 will be thicker than XW30 will be thicker than XW20 at 100C. The minimum film thickness sort of follows the viscosity, but there are endless arguments about what is really needed. An oil that is thicker at high temps will also tend to run a bit hotter and will sap a bit of power exactly because it is thicker, but I think it would be hard to notice a loss of power in practice (I have noticed that high HTHS oils run noticeably hotter in my car than lower HTHS oils of the same grade).

It gets a little complicated when you're looking at a wide "spread" oil like a 0W40, as the maker might have to use a heavy dose of Viscosity Index Improver (VII) additives that can shear (temporarily or permanently) in operation and result in a lower viscosity and minimum film thickness when hot. Because of this, it is often recommended to use oils that are thicker at low temp when you don't experience cold temperatures in your area...if you're in Florida or South Texas, maybe use a 10W30 instead of 0W30. It seems that the use of good synthetic base stocks can allow 5W20 and 10W30 oils to be made with no VIIs and those oils can be expected to be especially resistant to shear.
Of course, plenty of people use 0W40 oils in warm climates with no problems. You just might be getting a bit more engine wear in a warm place due to what it takes to make the oil work well at extreme cold, and that cold performance isn't even buying you anything.

As far as startup wear is concerned, a 0WXX and a 5WXX oil will only start to really diverge in viscosity at very low temperatures, so a difference in startup wear would probably only be evident with persistent very cold conditions.

 

[Ram02]

Trust Honda and use 0w20 there haven't been any problems running it fuel dilution in the 1.5T. Gm on the other hand been having a lot of cracked pistons with there 1.5t

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: newbe46
Regarding the OP, if the engine never gets hot enough to let the oil goes too thin, does it mean putting a heavier oil will sacrifice the power output? Hence, a 0W-20 will suffice a daily commute and hard driving on weekends?

I'm not sure what that bolded statement means.

But the rest of your comments, I would follow what the manufacturer specifies for grade. If they give an alternate grade for track use then follow it.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Ram02
Trust Honda and use 0w20 there haven't been any problems running it fuel dilution in the 1.5T. Gm on the other hand been having a lot of cracked pistons with there 1.5t


That GM 1.5l DIT was recalled for LSPI, a type of knock that DIT engines are prone to...my Subaru was recalled for the same reason.
There has been a lot written about the interactions between LSPI and engine oil, and I have been using various M1 oils that are low in calcium and have nearly zero sodium as a result of reading up on the topic.
The good news is that the new dexos1 Gen 2 spec that will go live next month incorporates an LSPI test. The bad news is that the non-GM specific GF6 is a year or two behind that. I will definitely be looking out for dexos1 Gen 2 oils when they start showing up on the shelves.
It is worth noting that the GM recall including changing the oil with one particular AC Delco oil in the US and a particular M1 oil in Canada.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4306204/Infineum_on_Quenching_LSPI

 

[kschachn]

This is a common sentiment and statement on here but one that really isn't supported by any facts as far as I've seen. I wouldn't suppose that all VII additives are similar and I don't think there is any evidence that anyone who uses a 0W-40 oil is experiencing "a bit more engine wear". There's no indication that is happening is there?

Is there any readily available test that conclusively shows that a viscosity decrease is due to shearing as opposed to fuel dilution?

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
It gets a little complicated when you're looking at a wide "spread" oil like a 0W40, as the maker might have to use a heavy dose of Viscosity Index Improver (VII) additives that can shear (temporarily or permanently) in operation and result in a lower viscosity and minimum film thickness when hot. Because of this, it is often recommended to use oils that are thicker at low temp when you don't experience cold temperatures in your area...if you're in Florida or South Texas, maybe use a 10W30 instead of 0W30. It seems that the use of good synthetic base stocks can allow 5W20 and 10W30 oils to be made with no VIIs and those oils can be expected to be especially resistant to shear.
Of course, plenty of people use 0W40 oils in warm climates with no problems. You just might be getting a bit more engine wear in a warm place due to what it takes to make the oil work well at extreme cold, and that cold performance isn't even buying you anything.

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
Manufacturer's RECOMMENDATION is not a REQUIREMENT.
Save yourself from trouble of fuel-diluted oil (and possibly a damaged/spun bearing under spirited driving due to dilution) and go with a good 0w40. Pennzoil, Mobil, or Castrol, in that order. Mobil 1 0w30 would be a good option too, if you dont want 0w40. But if you absolutely have to stay with 0w20 - then Redline 0w20 would absolutely be the only option I would even consider in that engine.

Learn from other people's fuel diluted engines and save yours from such trouble by stepping up in viscosity.


Not so sure about the recommendation/requirement. My owner's manual says: "Use Genuine Honda Motor Oil or another commercial engine oil of suitable viscosity for the ambient temperature shown here." And the ambient ambient temperature chart shows only 0w-20 for all temperatures.

So I think any deviation from 0w-20 could open the door for a warranty dispute. After all, if 0w-20 is only a recommendation, why not use 10w-60 in Alaska?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just can't wrap my head around ever needing a 0W anything unless you live in the middle of Antarctica on the East Antarctic Plateau. The 0W is coming out of my Honda next oil change and being replaced with 5W20.

Why? The thinner the oil at startup the better.

Of course depending on the temperature and the oil, a 0W oil may be thicker than a 5W.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Danh
So I think any deviation from 0w-20 could open the door for a warranty dispute. After all, if 0w-20 is only a recommendation, why not use 10w-60 in Alaska?

We had a thread on this just recently and no one could point to where that is listed as a warranty requirement for any vehicle.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

The CTR calls for 0w20?

For something like that, you might be better off with something that meets Honda's old HTO-06 standards (for the first-gen RDX, the first Turbo Honda ever sold here). All of them will be 5w30 synthetic. PP/PUP, QSUD, M1, Edge, and Havoline synthetic meet it. Valvoline does not, whetaher it's Synpower, or Napa synthetic.

It might also be a good candidate for Edge 0w30

 

[newbe46]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Regarding the OP, if the engine never gets hot enough to let the oil goes too thin, does it mean putting a heavier oil will sacrifice the power output? Hence, a 0W-20 will suffice a daily commute and hard driving on weekends?

I'm not sure what that bolded statement means.

But the rest of your comments, I would follow what the manufacturer specifies for grade. If they give an alternate grade for track use then follow it.


What I meant is that if the engine is not transferring a great amount of heat to the oil, the oil should have a correct value of viscosity.

Apologies if I sort of hijacked the thread but I have a similar issue but in reverse. Manufacture calls for a heavy oil but I rarely track the car.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
This is a common sentiment and statement on here but one that really isn't supported by any facts as far as I've seen. I wouldn't suppose that all VII additives are similar and I don't think there is any evidence that anyone who uses a 0W-40 oil is experiencing "a bit more engine wear". There's no indication that is happening is there?

Is there any readily available test that conclusively shows that a viscosity decrease is due to shearing as opposed to fuel dilution?

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
It gets a little complicated when you're looking at a wide "spread" oil like a 0W40, as the maker might have to use a heavy dose of Viscosity Index Improver (VII) additives that can shear (temporarily or permanently) in operation and result in a lower viscosity and minimum film thickness when hot. Because of this, it is often recommended to use oils that are thicker at low temp when you don't experience cold temperatures in your area...if you're in Florida or South Texas, maybe use a 10W30 instead of 0W30. It seems that the use of good synthetic base stocks can allow 5W20 and 10W30 oils to be made with no VIIs and those oils can be expected to be especially resistant to shear.
Of course, plenty of people use 0W40 oils in warm climates with no problems. You just might be getting a bit more engine wear in a warm place due to what it takes to make the oil work well at extreme cold, and that cold performance isn't even buying you anything.


My memory is that Shannow posted some really good graphs from studies on this topic. It would take me forever to track them down and I'm hoping that he might see this and save me here! I might be able to search more later tonight, but I'm not completely sure the thread involved even started off with the discussion of VIIs.

It's also quite likely that I misremembered and/or misunderstood and am completely full of it. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I would very happy to switch from 5W30 to 0W30 if I didn't lose in NOACK performance and LSPI resistance as a result...the prospect of extra VIIs in the oil wouldn't be a big concern for me.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I'd use a mono 20 if I could find one

 

[dblshock]

I'd doubt the OP purchased a CTR as a pure fuel efficiency commuter so a 0/20 motor oil is a really silly choice.