North America vs. Anywhere Else Viscosities

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: sbergman27
Excuse me, but I drive a lot in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and Arizona. The standard speed limit on the Interstates in those states is 75 mph. That's what I drive... and people pass me all the time. Coming back down from Wyoming last week, a couple of the digital banner signs across I25 in northern Colorado were displaying the simple warning "75MPH means 75MPH". I see several people stopped by the highway patrol on most of my trips. And I get the impression that no one is getting stopped for traveling 76MPH.

I'm sure the manufactures are well aware of how people drive here.

Exactly my point. We think 75 MPH is fast.

Most German cars are designed to run at around twice that speed, day-in and day-out, for years. If you were to take those huge stretches of highway where you drive 75 MPH and transplant them into Italy or rural Germany, you might have to drive 90 just to stay on the road.

Perhaps not everyone in Europe drives that quickly, but the point is that that's what the cars are designed to take. That's a big reason why European cars were always so much better to drive than American cars until recently, when the Big Three finally started catching up... which they did largely by bringing in cars and technologies from their European divisons.


Given "everyone" drives 75 MPH to 80 MPH on the roads where 70 MPH is the speed limit, I don't see 75 or 80 MPH as fast. It's just normal. Fast doesn't start until 90 MPH.

 

[Silk]

The first VW had it's cruising speed as it's top speed - they were designed to run flat out all day,and this in the '30's.My BMW motorcycle owners manual lists maximum continuous engine speed - actually 50rpm over max hp rpm.Small engines designed run as hard as they can,hardly the US standard.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: BobFout

Given "everyone" drives 75 MPH to 80 MPH on the roads where 70 MPH is the speed limit, I don't see 75 or 80 MPH as fast. It's just normal. Fast doesn't start until 90 MPH.

When I drove Vegas about 2-3 times a year I set cruise control at 85 when it was fairly busy traffic. When traffic was light I sped up to 95-100 MPH or more. Fast doesn't start until triple digits MPH.

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 no doubt is made for diesel engines based on the product data sheet. Seems like an experiment to put that in it. I'm curious to know how it works for you. The Lincoln Town Car is a nice ride.


This is the previous CI/SL rated TDT (Delvac 1 5w-40). It carries the SL rating for gasoline engines. So I wasn't really worried about the diesel specs since it exceeds the gasoline specs that were applicable to my car in 96. I was more just wondering if you thought the weight itself could be damaging to my engine. I know that you know the engine and the oil industry very well so I really appreciate your opinion.

I believe this is the correct MSDS for it:

http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/glxxencvlmomobil_delvac_1_5w-40.pdf

I only have 72,000 miles on the car and I definitely love it. Here's a picture:

Art, that's a beautiful car. I can tell you take good care of it. From the oil spec sheet, this oil has the following viscosity:

V40ºC 102 cSt
V100ºC 14.8 cSt

I won't take a position on your question because there will most likely be rebuttals by other BITOG members that will only confuse the issue. If it were my car, I would not have put that in it. I would have 5w30, maybe 10w30 synthetic in it.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: BobFout

Given "everyone" drives 75 MPH to 80 MPH on the roads where 70 MPH is the speed limit, I don't see 75 or 80 MPH as fast. It's just normal. Fast doesn't start until 90 MPH.

When I drove Vegas about 2-3 times a year I set cruise control at 85 when it was fairly busy traffic. When traffic was light I sped up to 95-100 MPH or more. Fast doesn't start until triple digits MPH.

I would *love* to be able to cruise at 100 MPH

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: sbergman27
I really feel like we (and the Japanese) are leading the way forward, while Europe is having trouble getting past old-school thinking.


+1, I totally agree with you. They are still a lot "By the book" over there, don't want to experiment too much ("Engineers know best").
Remember it is the second biggest investment after buying a house, so you don't want to screw it.

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: akela
On the other hand, if you have 1.3l 100hp engine, and driving at autobahn. You are spending at WOT/4000+ rpm many hours, not just seconds.


Are you talking from experience?

Because my 12 years experience is different than yours:
I got several cars with small engines (Super 5, Clio, Twingo (Can you see we were Renault fans back then?)), and several facts are different than yours:
- You don't spend that much time above 100mph with these kinds of cars, even when you are a stupid teenager (redundancy here?). Having these kinds of small engines means you have light and not made for high speed cars. You will spend quite some time between 130 and 150-160 kph (between 80 and 100 mph), but not faster than that, at least if you want to arrive to destination alive.
- Doing 100 mph on these small cars means you are at about 4000 rpms, not higher.
- For hours in France means no more than 3 hours straight, as you will arrive either to a traffic jam, to a pay toll, or at your destination exit. 3 hours straight at high speed is about 600 to 750 kms, meaning, for example, from any parts of South France (For example Pau for me) up to Paris, where you will have to slow down due to traffic.


Could you detail your experiences about your long stints of highways at WOT in Europe?


By the way, every cars, even North American ones, are designed, radiators size wise, to sustain high revolution regime for a long period of time, not just European cars.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
By the way, every cars, even North American ones, are designed, radiators size wise, to sustain high revolution regime for a long period of time, not just European cars.

The cooling system is one thing; the rest of the engine is another.

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: Pesca

Are you talking from experience?

- Doing 100 mph on these small cars means you are at about 4000 rpms, not higher.
yes, it's my experience. Lived in Germany for 5 years. Driving 160-180km/h for hours is nothing unusual.

What does it mean? Engine is working at 60-80% of it's max horsepower capacity for extended periods of time. In North America, this factor would be 30-40% instead. Do we have a use case that would require 200-hp v6 (in midsize passenger car) to work long enough with 60-80% of it's horsepowers?

Can this factor (statistically average engine load, related to max hp) affect the manufacturer's recommendations for engine oil? I would say, quite likely.

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Pesca
By the way, every cars, even North American ones, are designed, radiators size wise, to sustain high revolution regime for a long period of time, not just European cars.

The cooling system is one thing; the rest of the engine is another.


It was a short cut only to say that what is the point of doing a 300hp engine if you cannot use all of them?

If an engine as a redline of 6500rpms, the whole engine is designed to handle this limit, that is not a marketing feature, it has been engineered thought.

 

[d00df00d]

Yes, but using it once in a while is not the same as using it all the time. Everyone knows you can make an engine with as much power as you want, but making it dependable at that output level is a different matter.

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: akela
Originally Posted By: Pesca

Are you talking from experience?

- Doing 100 mph on these small cars means you are at about 4000 rpms, not higher.
yes, it's my experience. Lived in Germany for 5 years. Driving 160-180km/h for hours is nothing unusual.


You did not write what 1.3l engine and car you used for 5 years to drive at 160-180kph for extended periods of time on germans highways?
What type of travels did you do to get driving like you cited "for hours" without never had to slow down at one time or another (no traffic to slow you down on the highway?)?

In my renaults, I couldn't keep that speed for a long time as the car felt light at that speed and any crossed wind could have make the drive not really safe.

Originally Posted By: akela
What does it mean? Engine is working at 60-80% of it's max horsepower capacity for extended periods of time. In North America, this factor would be 30-40% instead. Do we have a use case that would require 200-hp v6 (in midsize passenger car) to work long enough with 60-80% of it's horsepowers?

Can this factor (statistically average engine load, related to max hp) affect the manufacturer's recommendations for engine oil? I would say, quite likely.


Not everybody has a V6 in NA (as not every europeans drives BMWs on germans highways), Not everybody has 200hp under his hood in NA. So your comparison between 60-80% and 30-40% in not that relevant.

If you go more south than we live, in Colorado Mountains and in Arizona deserts for example, I believe NA engines see more loads than my renaults saw when I was driving from Pau to Paris back and forth, whatever the size of the engines are.

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yes, but using it once in a while is not the same as using it all the time. Everyone knows you can make an engine with as much power as you want, but making it dependable at that output level is a different matter.


And then we come back to my comments about how drive North Americans compare to Europeans: Way more often do I see people doing drag races from light to light in NA than I saw when I lived in the surrounds of Paris.

An example: We went to lunch out on a friday and we went with one of my colleague car: He start the car that was sitting for 4 hours, turn on the road from the parking lot, floored it (WOT, redline) until he gets to 100kph (the speed limit as we were close to the highway) and then release the gas pedal, the last two gears moved up and then we coasted to our exit.

Never did that or saw that in Europe. He did that every day after work and at lunch time when we went out.
And he was not the only one doing that, and most of these guys are big machinery mechanics.

 

[GMGuy]

What I read between the lines: Run what you want, it makes little difference.

Does a euro spec engine with 15w60 do any different over its lifetime than the very same engine here with 5w30/20?
How many miles are they getting out of the engine before failures that affect its operation? Are we getting significantly more? the same? less?

Alex.

 

[mechtech2]

The Autobahn is one very small factor in European and 'other' world oil recommendations.

We should not give so much importance to an isolated event.

Besides, I believe a soccer Mom is harder on equipment than an automotive educated German.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: modularv8

Art, that's a beautiful car. I can tell you take good care of it. From the oil spec sheet, this oil has the following viscosity:

V40ºC 102 cSt
V100ºC 14.8 cSt

I won't take a position on your question because there will most likely be rebuttals by other BITOG members that will only confuse the issue. If it were my car, I would not have put that in it. I would have 5w30, maybe 10w30 synthetic in it.


Modularv8, I really appreciate your input. Thank you. Like I said I care for the car deeply so I don't want to damage it in any way. I suppose I can just consider this run a deep cleaning cycle if nothing else. I just hope it doesn't clean a few pieces of metal off my engine lol. Would you trust a UOA to be conclusive with regard to this oil's safety in my car?
Can heavy weight oil in a Modular engine cause permanent consumption issues?
Could this oil safely be mixed with Mobil 0w-20 to bring it down in viscosity and detergency? Actually, I'll start a separate thread about this last question.
Thank you again.

 

[4ever4d]

Just a stab in the dark here ,but,could the difference in motor fuel grade play into recommended viscosity,i understand that is a goofy statement and makes no sense but who knows.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
IMO, that's the perfect oil for that year and engine. Old School pro town car drivers still stuck in "20W50 only" mode. Running dyno in that weight they go over 500k miles easily. That's a great engine and a great vehicle. People put so many wrong fluids in those vehicles for so long.. Lubricants aside, I know 2 brothers who never dilute antifreeze, they swear they never had to replace a water pump. All kind of stupid things were done to that tank.


Y_K, wow I never heard of 20w-50 dino usage, those must have been Old School Pros for sure! I have to say these cars do seem to hold up well over the long haul. I'm sure everything has an ideal though. Yet the 4.6 might just be capable of 400K with the worst, thickest or thinnest oil made for all I know.

Believe me, I want the 5w-40 to turn out to be good for it since I have a stash that I'd prefer to use up before buying more oil.

 

[modularv8]

I wouldn't fret over it, it will probably shear down to something more suitable during this cycle.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Y_K, wow I never heard of 20w-50 dino usage, those must have been Old School Pros for sure!

They are still around. They don't make the majority though. I know quite a few taxi drivers (modular 8) that mix their own 10W40 - at least they believe they get the weight right. God knows what folks do to those engines!