Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
New tires best in front or rear?
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Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Especially in the wet this is generally true, best way to correct oversteer in FWD is to use the power, but then most fwd will just spin the inside wheel on a wet road and all is lost. There are some nice handling FWD cars though as stock, traction/stability control also a big help.
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Especially in the wet this is generally true, best way to correct oversteer in FWD is to use the power, but then most fwd will just spin the inside wheel on a wet road and all is lost. There are some nice handling FWD cars though as stock, traction/stability control also a big help.
Originally Posted By: NGRhodes
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Especially in the wet this is generally true, best way to correct oversteer in FWD is to use the power, but then most fwd will just spin the inside wheel on a wet road and all is lost. There are some nice handling FWD cars though as stock, traction/stability control also a big help.
Times a dozen! A snap spin in an FWD car is an event that will leave you breathless. Plus their polar moment is all up front, they rotate like a tilt-a-whirl at the fair...
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Especially in the wet this is generally true, best way to correct oversteer in FWD is to use the power, but then most fwd will just spin the inside wheel on a wet road and all is lost. There are some nice handling FWD cars though as stock, traction/stability control also a big help.
Times a dozen! A snap spin in an FWD car is an event that will leave you breathless. Plus their polar moment is all up front, they rotate like a tilt-a-whirl at the fair...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Not many dissenting views, but Eric the Car guy has one...
But no convincing evidence relevent to loss of control, though he does say the back "kicks out a bit" when stopping with the good tyres on the front, which tells him he's got better traction there.
Well yeh. Thats what kills you.
A better test might be to drive in a circle and see what speed you spin out at.
I tried that in a huge completely deserted icy car park in Aviemore, Scotland (Ski resort, so a lot of excess capacity by UK standards when there's not enough snow)
Thought it'd be a major contribution to road safety if I knew how to control a skid.
The Blue Meanies, who turned up about 2 minutes later, disagreed, so I still don't.
Not many dissenting views, but Eric the Car guy has one...
But no convincing evidence relevent to loss of control, though he does say the back "kicks out a bit" when stopping with the good tyres on the front, which tells him he's got better traction there.
Well yeh. Thats what kills you.
A better test might be to drive in a circle and see what speed you spin out at.
I tried that in a huge completely deserted icy car park in Aviemore, Scotland (Ski resort, so a lot of excess capacity by UK standards when there's not enough snow)
Thought it'd be a major contribution to road safety if I knew how to control a skid.
The Blue Meanies, who turned up about 2 minutes later, disagreed, so I still don't.
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Most FWD cars will understeer. Some cars have geometry when lift throttle, the rear steps out. I have had a oversteer condition on a FWD car in my college days in the snow (back before I discovered snow tires), which was easily correctable, since I had time to react, as I was driving at a relatively low speed.
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Most FWD cars will understeer. Some cars have geometry when lift throttle, the rear steps out. I have had a oversteer condition on a FWD car in my college days in the snow (back before I discovered snow tires), which was easily correctable, since I had time to react, as I was driving at a relatively low speed.
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Huh? Have been roadracing FWD for 20 years, it is very easy.
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Huh? Have been roadracing FWD for 20 years, it is very easy.
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
I find if I initiate the oversteer with fwd, then its no big deal to hold it or stop it. If you get surprised though, then its easy to over correct and snap the other way, but I suspect that's more a function of weight distribution than which end has the drive wheels.
My Focus wagon is actually quite neutral and its easy to get the back end out whenever you want, but it also seems to be more controllable and less likely to spin right out than my 95 Neon was. I think its because the wagon has an Al block engine and does carry abit more weight on the back.
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
I find if I initiate the oversteer with fwd, then its no big deal to hold it or stop it. If you get surprised though, then its easy to over correct and snap the other way, but I suspect that's more a function of weight distribution than which end has the drive wheels.
My Focus wagon is actually quite neutral and its easy to get the back end out whenever you want, but it also seems to be more controllable and less likely to spin right out than my 95 Neon was. I think its because the wagon has an Al block engine and does carry abit more weight on the back.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Huh? Have been roadracing FWD for 20 years, it is very easy.
I havn't (so) it isn't.
With RWD your natural, instinctive, un-trained reaction calms everything down. With FWD it kills you.
Originally Posted By: Traction
Having driven many cars at the limit, whether dirt track racing, karting, autocrossing, or everyday driving, there is a HUGE difference at the limit with a FWD car even with 4 matching tires. A FWD car is extremely difficult to recover from in an over- steer condition, compared to a RWD in which you would usually run the best tires in the rear. It's much more instinctive to counter-steer with a RWD, but with a FWD, all H311 breaks loose.
Huh? Have been roadracing FWD for 20 years, it is very easy.
I havn't (so) it isn't.
With RWD your natural, instinctive, un-trained reaction calms everything down. With FWD it kills you.
If you have to ask this question, then you are better putting the new tyres at the back.
If you put the best two on the rear, they will be scalloped to [censored] before the fronts wear out completely and need replacing.
It might be time for me to talk about this:
Before I retired, the tire manufacturer I worked for would put on product demonstrations. We would either use our proving ground are a race track and set up wet and dry tire comparisons - ours vs theirs. We invited tire dealers, journalists, etc to drive the cars and experience it for themselves.
One of the demonstrations was which end to put new tires.
3 identical cars (except for color). 1st car - new all round. 2nd car - new on rear, worn (4/32nds) on the front. 3rd car - new on the front, worn on the rear.
Everyone drove the cars around a large skid pad at 45 to 50 mph. There was a part of the track where there was water running across.
The 1st car drove right through the water. The 2nd car hydroplaned at the front, but was easily recoverable.
But the 3rd car spun out. There was no recovering it. The driver had to wait until the car stopped before he could. And everyone spun.
We usually used small FWD cars as they spun easily due to their short wheel base, but we did use large RWD cars and while the effect was the same, the maneuver was a little rough on the cars and they went quite a bit further before coming to a rest.
We literally put hundreds of people through this demonstration every year. A few had a hard time believing what they had experienced - but there was no denying what had happened.
And lastly: When I was working with my colleagues from other tire manufacturers on an update to the RMA PLT tire service manual - This one! - we needed to know at what point would there be a perceivable difference between tires due to wear. Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
Before I retired, the tire manufacturer I worked for would put on product demonstrations. We would either use our proving ground are a race track and set up wet and dry tire comparisons - ours vs theirs. We invited tire dealers, journalists, etc to drive the cars and experience it for themselves.
One of the demonstrations was which end to put new tires.
3 identical cars (except for color). 1st car - new all round. 2nd car - new on rear, worn (4/32nds) on the front. 3rd car - new on the front, worn on the rear.
Everyone drove the cars around a large skid pad at 45 to 50 mph. There was a part of the track where there was water running across.
The 1st car drove right through the water. The 2nd car hydroplaned at the front, but was easily recoverable.
But the 3rd car spun out. There was no recovering it. The driver had to wait until the car stopped before he could. And everyone spun.
We usually used small FWD cars as they spun easily due to their short wheel base, but we did use large RWD cars and while the effect was the same, the maneuver was a little rough on the cars and they went quite a bit further before coming to a rest.
We literally put hundreds of people through this demonstration every year. A few had a hard time believing what they had experienced - but there was no denying what had happened.
And lastly: When I was working with my colleagues from other tire manufacturers on an update to the RMA PLT tire service manual - This one! - we needed to know at what point would there be a perceivable difference between tires due to wear. Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
And we come to the most important part. Rotate your tires properly and often enough, and this won't be an issue.
Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
And we come to the most important part. Rotate your tires properly and often enough, and this won't be an issue.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
And we come to the most important part. Rotate your tires properly and often enough, and this won't be an issue.
Punctures?
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
And we come to the most important part. Rotate your tires properly and often enough, and this won't be an issue.
Punctures?
Nick1994
$100 site donor 2024
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
It might be time for me to talk about this:
Before I retired, the tire manufacturer I worked for would put on product demonstrations. We would either use our proving ground are a race track and set up wet and dry tire comparisons - ours vs theirs. We invited tire dealers, journalists, etc to drive the cars and experience it for themselves.
One of the demonstrations was which end to put new tires.
3 identical cars (except for color). 1st car - new all round. 2nd car - new on rear, worn (4/32nds) on the front. 3rd car - new on the front, worn on the rear.
Everyone drove the cars around a large skid pad at 45 to 50 mph. There was a part of the track where there was water running across.
The 1st car drove right through the water. The 2nd car hydroplaned at the front, but was easily recoverable.
But the 3rd car spun out. There was no recovering it. The driver had to wait until the car stopped before he could. And everyone spun.
We usually used small FWD cars as they spun easily due to their short wheel base, but we did use large RWD cars and while the effect was the same, the maneuver was a little rough on the cars and they went quite a bit further before coming to a rest.
We literally put hundreds of people through this demonstration every year. A few had a hard time believing what they had experienced - but there was no denying what had happened.
And lastly: When I was working with my colleagues from other tire manufacturers on an update to the RMA PLT tire service manual - This one! - we needed to know at what point would there be a perceivable difference between tires due to wear. Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
Thanks for the info CapriRacer! One thing I've always wondered, is what if you had a car with 4/32" all the way around and took it on that track? Would it skid out?
It might be time for me to talk about this:
Before I retired, the tire manufacturer I worked for would put on product demonstrations. We would either use our proving ground are a race track and set up wet and dry tire comparisons - ours vs theirs. We invited tire dealers, journalists, etc to drive the cars and experience it for themselves.
One of the demonstrations was which end to put new tires.
3 identical cars (except for color). 1st car - new all round. 2nd car - new on rear, worn (4/32nds) on the front. 3rd car - new on the front, worn on the rear.
Everyone drove the cars around a large skid pad at 45 to 50 mph. There was a part of the track where there was water running across.
The 1st car drove right through the water. The 2nd car hydroplaned at the front, but was easily recoverable.
But the 3rd car spun out. There was no recovering it. The driver had to wait until the car stopped before he could. And everyone spun.
We usually used small FWD cars as they spun easily due to their short wheel base, but we did use large RWD cars and while the effect was the same, the maneuver was a little rough on the cars and they went quite a bit further before coming to a rest.
We literally put hundreds of people through this demonstration every year. A few had a hard time believing what they had experienced - but there was no denying what had happened.
And lastly: When I was working with my colleagues from other tire manufacturers on an update to the RMA PLT tire service manual - This one! - we needed to know at what point would there be a perceivable difference between tires due to wear. Michelin was gracious enough to sort this out and came up with 2/32nds as the dividing line. The means that the only time there is a problem with rotating tires is when there has been neglect - regularly rotating tires would never result in a badly handlingly car (by itself).
Thanks for the info CapriRacer! One thing I've always wondered, is what if you had a car with 4/32" all the way around and took it on that track? Would it skid out?
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Thanks for the info CapriRacer! One thing I've always wondered, is what if you had a car with 4/32" all the way around and took it on that track? Would it skid out?
Yes. The speed was such that the worn tires were hydroplaning, so the car would leave the track, mostly likely in a slow rotation until the speed had dropped enough for the car to regain traction - AND - depending on which end broke loose first, the spin could be fast, not at all, or in the opposite direction.
Thanks for the info CapriRacer! One thing I've always wondered, is what if you had a car with 4/32" all the way around and took it on that track? Would it skid out?
Yes. The speed was such that the worn tires were hydroplaning, so the car would leave the track, mostly likely in a slow rotation until the speed had dropped enough for the car to regain traction - AND - depending on which end broke loose first, the spin could be fast, not at all, or in the opposite direction.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Here in South Florida, with the heavy rains and near zero corners, just high speed highways, it's considerably safer to have the new tires on the front. As they move the standing water away from the rear tires that have less tread, leading to a good overall result. Loss of steering due to hydroplaining bald front tires while at speed on the highway is unrecoverable.
Thanks!
I said the same thing about SE TX. The deeper tread on front evacuates a path through the layer of water on the road, allowing the rear tires with less tread to travel in the same cleared path.
I wish more people could realize not all advice fits all circumstances.
Here in South Florida, with the heavy rains and near zero corners, just high speed highways, it's considerably safer to have the new tires on the front. As they move the standing water away from the rear tires that have less tread, leading to a good overall result. Loss of steering due to hydroplaining bald front tires while at speed on the highway is unrecoverable.
Thanks!
I said the same thing about SE TX. The deeper tread on front evacuates a path through the layer of water on the road, allowing the rear tires with less tread to travel in the same cleared path.
I wish more people could realize not all advice fits all circumstances.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Clearly you didn't have drivers of the caliber of some in this thread doing the test...
From time to time you will see their cars, in ditches, medians, on the back of accident recovery trucks.....
Claud.
Clearly you didn't have drivers of the caliber of some in this thread doing the test...
From time to time you will see their cars, in ditches, medians, on the back of accident recovery trucks.....
Claud.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Here in South Florida, with the heavy rains and near zero corners, just high speed highways, it's considerably safer to have the new tires on the front. As they move the standing water away from the rear tires that have less tread, leading to a good overall result. Loss of steering due to hydroplaining bald front tires while at speed on the highway is unrecoverable.
Thanks!
I said the same thing about SE TX. The deeper tread on front evacuates a path through the layer of water on the road, allowing the rear tires with less tread to travel in the same cleared path.
I wish more people could realize not all advice fits all circumstances.
Well this is exactly why it is a problem when you can't see beyond a straight line. The Michelin lawsuit came about from someone thinking the same thing. The problem is, whether rain or snow, is when you go into a curve at speed, all 4 tire are not following the same track, which is not the same as traveling in a straight line. So the tires with the least tread lose traction first.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Here in South Florida, with the heavy rains and near zero corners, just high speed highways, it's considerably safer to have the new tires on the front. As they move the standing water away from the rear tires that have less tread, leading to a good overall result. Loss of steering due to hydroplaining bald front tires while at speed on the highway is unrecoverable.
Thanks!
I said the same thing about SE TX. The deeper tread on front evacuates a path through the layer of water on the road, allowing the rear tires with less tread to travel in the same cleared path.
I wish more people could realize not all advice fits all circumstances.
Well this is exactly why it is a problem when you can't see beyond a straight line. The Michelin lawsuit came about from someone thinking the same thing. The problem is, whether rain or snow, is when you go into a curve at speed, all 4 tire are not following the same track, which is not the same as traveling in a straight line. So the tires with the least tread lose traction first.
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