Mobil1 0w20 EP, 9924 miles, 2010 Civic

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I'll repeat my earlier post: ask Blackstone if they have enough sample left to check viscosity again.

How many miles into the interval was the makeup oil added? Did you use the same oil for makeup?

Anything different about this run - less idle time than usual, less aggressive driving?

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Don't have any? That is what I thought. Neither do I. So, at very best, our recommendations carry the same weight. I am recommending based on my experience.


The data is in the UOA! All parameters are normal; therefore, 10k is fine. This isn't conjecture or banter; the data is literally at the beginning of this thread. What the heck is BITOG coming to, when we can't even use data as a legitimate point for argument! "yea, that data looks fine, but it just don't feel right!" OR "I don't quite understand all of it, so I'll assume it's not ok!"
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I'll repeat my earlier post: ask Blackstone if they have enough sample left to check viscosity again.

How many miles into the interval was the makeup oil added? Did you use the same oil for makeup?

Anything different about this run - less idle time than usual, less aggressive driving?

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Don't have any? That is what I thought. Neither do I. So, at very best, our recommendations carry the same weight. I am recommending based on my experience.


The data is in the UOA! All parameters are normal; therefore, 10k is fine. This isn't conjecture or banter; the data is literally at the beginning of this thread. What the heck is BITOG coming to, when we can't even use data as a legitimate point for argument! "yea, that data looks fine, but it just don't feel right!" OR "I don't quite understand all of it, so I'll assume it's not ok!"

That is not what I was referring to specifically. The data I was asking for was that in which it shows any OCI is better than any other, more miles or less miles. 3 UOA's are not complete scientific data. But since you bring it up...
We have 3 UOA's which are at different miles. We don't know what conditions in which each OCI existed, i.e. was one run in the summer? Was one mainly stop-and-go?. The most recent UOA has some significantly different readings than the first two. Why?
So, based on on 3 UOA's with different readings, different miles, and unknown driving conditions, all of which are not on a car you own, you can make a clear and concise decision that changing oil at a certain interval is good, and changing it at another is not?
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
State one thing that will go wrong with his engine if he changes the oil at 5k, as opposed to 10k.


Not a thing. In fact if he keeps service records the car will be easier to sell to most people who check those things, myself included with oil change intervals of 5K vs. 10K. Now if selling the vehicle is something that won't ever happen, then no worries.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I'll repeat my earlier post: ask Blackstone if they have enough sample left to check viscosity again.

How many miles into the interval was the makeup oil added? Did you use the same oil for makeup?

Anything different about this run - less idle time than usual, less aggressive driving?

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Don't have any? That is what I thought. Neither do I. So, at very best, our recommendations carry the same weight. I am recommending based on my experience.


The data is in the UOA! All parameters are normal; therefore, 10k is fine. This isn't conjecture or banter; the data is literally at the beginning of this thread. What the heck is BITOG coming to, when we can't even use data as a legitimate point for argument! "yea, that data looks fine, but it just don't feel right!" OR "I don't quite understand all of it, so I'll assume it's not ok!"

That is not what I was referring to specifically. The data I was asking for was that in which it shows any OCI is better than any other, more miles or less miles. 3 UOA's are not complete scientific data. But since you bring it up...
We have 3 UOA's which are at different miles. We don't know what conditions in which each OCI existed, i.e. was one run in the summer? Was one mainly stop-and-go?. The most recent UOA has some significantly different readings than the first two. Why?
So, based on on 3 UOA's with different readings, different miles, and unknown driving conditions, all of which are not on a car you own, you can make a clear and concise decision that changing oil at a certain interval is good, and changing it at another is not?


You're over-thinking it. Based on the data, limited though it may be, the OP is fine @ 10k intervals. If he drastically changes his driving style or profile, then he needs to be smart enough to account for it.

I wouldn't say that an oil change interval that shows what his shows with 10k miles of all-highway driving would look the same or shouldn't require a shortened interval if the profile changed to all short trips and long idle periods to warm up in cold weather. We need to exercise some common sense; however, the data shows good. One viscosity perturbation (which is still in-grade) is not enough to condemn the oil for this interval.

You are right to question these things, however. We need to know what the OP added for makeup oil (maybe he used 20W-50 as makeup oil by mistake), and we need to see if Blackstone is able to retest for viscosity.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
State one thing that will go wrong with his engine if he changes the oil at 5k, as opposed to 10k.


Not a thing. In fact if he keeps service records the car will be easier to sell to most people who check those things, myself included with oil change intervals of 5K vs. 10K. Now if selling the vehicle is something that won't ever happen, then no worries.


Not necessarily. Most people don't know anything about oil, even if they know enough to ask for receipts/records. Showing a potential buyer something as anal-seeming as a UOA report would probably blow them away! "Many, this guy sends his oil out for analysis - his maintenance must be super legit!"

The only time it would matter, is if the vehicle is still within warranty. Even I wouldn't choose a car with super high intervals while it was still in warranty, even it the results showed nicely. Well, maybe if the price was right, like below fair trade-in value with some extras.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I'll repeat my earlier post: ask Blackstone if they have enough sample left to check viscosity again.

How many miles into the interval was the makeup oil added? Did you use the same oil for makeup?

Anything different about this run - less idle time than usual, less aggressive driving?

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Don't have any? That is what I thought. Neither do I. So, at very best, our recommendations carry the same weight. I am recommending based on my experience.


The data is in the UOA! All parameters are normal; therefore, 10k is fine. This isn't conjecture or banter; the data is literally at the beginning of this thread. What the heck is BITOG coming to, when we can't even use data as a legitimate point for argument! "yea, that data looks fine, but it just don't feel right!" OR "I don't quite understand all of it, so I'll assume it's not ok!"

That is not what I was referring to specifically. The data I was asking for was that in which it shows any OCI is better than any other, more miles or less miles. 3 UOA's are not complete scientific data. But since you bring it up...
We have 3 UOA's which are at different miles. We don't know what conditions in which each OCI existed, i.e. was one run in the summer? Was one mainly stop-and-go?. The most recent UOA has some significantly different readings than the first two. Why?
So, based on on 3 UOA's with different readings, different miles, and unknown driving conditions, all of which are not on a car you own, you can make a clear and concise decision that changing oil at a certain interval is good, and changing it at another is not?


You're over-thinking it. Based on the data, limited though it may be, the OP is fine @ 10k intervals. If he drastically changes his driving style or profile, then he needs to be smart enough to account for it.

I wouldn't say that an oil change interval that shows what his shows with 10k miles of all-highway driving would look the same or shouldn't require a shortened interval if the profile changed to all short trips and long idle periods to warm up in cold weather. We need to exercise some common sense; however, the data shows good. One viscosity perturbation (which is still in-grade) is not enough to condemn the oil for this interval.

You are right to question these things, however. We need to know what the OP added for makeup oil (maybe he used 20W-50 as makeup oil by mistake), and we need to see if Blackstone is able to retest for viscosity.

Good thoughts. I would still pull it back a little(maybe 7500 or 8000), do a UOA, see where it's at.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
We need to know what the OP added for makeup oil (maybe he used 20W-50 as makeup oil by mistake), and we need to see if Blackstone is able to retest for viscosity.

The makeup oil was the same Mobil 1 0w20 EP from the same jug as the rest of the oil. It was added roughly halfway thru the OCI.

The prior OCI with 8000 miles included five weekend road trips accounting for 4000 of those miles. The most recent OCI had only two such road trips accounting for only 1700 miles. The car started commuting 550 miles per week, all highway, four weeks before the oil change. The percentage of highway driving was clearly less on this OCI, but will be pushing 100% going forward.

I did contact Blackstone and they didn't think the difference was that significant, but they did agree to test it again and get back to me if there was a significant difference in the result.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro_Guy
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
We need to know what the OP added for makeup oil (maybe he used 20W-50 as makeup oil by mistake), and we need to see if Blackstone is able to retest for viscosity.

The makeup oil was the same Mobil 1 0w20 EP from the same jug as the rest of the oil. It was added roughly halfway thru the OCI.

The prior OCI with 8000 miles included five weekend road trips accounting for 4000 of those miles. The most recent OCI had only two such road trips accounting for only 1700 miles. The car started commuting 550 miles per week, all highway, four weeks before the oil change. The percentage of highway driving was clearly less on this OCI, but will be pushing 100% going forward.

I did contact Blackstone and they didn't think the difference was that significant, but they did agree to test it again and get back to me if there was a significant difference in the result.


Great info/follow-up!

Were the previous intervals (with higher percentage all-highway) at higher sustained speeds than this one? What about this interval?

We drive our 08 Civic down to FL several years ago and drove it faster than ever before - 75 MPH for many hours. We had just gotten it, and with an average Mpg in the mid 30s, we were very glad we chose it over the STI for the trip, which would have been lucky to get 20 Mpg at those speeds and been much louder, if you can believe it!
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
State one thing that will go wrong with his engine if he changes the oil at 5k, as opposed to 10k.


Not a thing. In fact if he keeps service records the car will be easier to sell to most people who check those things, myself included with oil change intervals of 5K vs. 10K. Now if selling the vehicle is something that won't ever happen, then no worries.


Not necessarily. Most people don't know anything about oil, even if they know enough to ask for receipts/records. Showing a potential buyer something as anal-seeming as a UOA report would probably blow them away! "Many, this guy sends his oil out for analysis - his maintenance must be super legit!"

The only time it would matter, is if the vehicle is still within warranty. Even I wouldn't choose a car with super high intervals while it was still in warranty, even it the results showed nicely. Well, maybe if the price was right, like below fair trade-in value with some extras.


I look at the oil data if available. I will choose the over loved car every time. If they don't have those records you know they didn't care and don't give a S about that car.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Astro_Guy
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
We need to know what the OP added for makeup oil (maybe he used 20W-50 as makeup oil by mistake), and we need to see if Blackstone is able to retest for viscosity.

The makeup oil was the same Mobil 1 0w20 EP from the same jug as the rest of the oil. It was added roughly halfway thru the OCI.

The prior OCI with 8000 miles included five weekend road trips accounting for 4000 of those miles. The most recent OCI had only two such road trips accounting for only 1700 miles. The car started commuting 550 miles per week, all highway, four weeks before the oil change. The percentage of highway driving was clearly less on this OCI, but will be pushing 100% going forward.

I did contact Blackstone and they didn't think the difference was that significant, but they did agree to test it again and get back to me if there was a significant difference in the result.


Great info/follow-up!

Were the previous intervals (with higher percentage all-highway) at higher sustained speeds than this one? What about this interval?

We drive our 08 Civic down to FL several years ago and drove it faster than ever before - 75 MPH for many hours. We had just gotten it, and with an average Mpg in the mid 30s, we were very glad we chose it over the STI for the trip, which would have been lucky to get 20 Mpg at those speeds and been much louder, if you can believe it!


You would have never gotten 20 mpg. You would have gotten 10, because you would have been doing 95 mph instead of 75
smile.gif
 
Current viscosity sample seems to be what I would expect for 9K miles in a quality 20 grade synthetic. The other 2 with a drop from 8.9 to 6.8 is certainly sheared/diluted...esp the earliest sample with only 4K miles. 20 grades are thin enough as it is w/o dropping into the 6's.
 
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Current viscosity sample seems to be what I would expect for 9K miles in a quality 20 grade synthetic. The other 2 with a drop from 8.9 to 6.8 is certainly sheared/diluted...esp the earliest sample with only 4K miles. 20 grades are thin enough as it is w/o dropping into the 6's.

My son drives this one, so I cannot comment much on the driving style. I know about the road trips because I was either in the car or we took multiple vehicles to the same destination. The really interesting sample would have been the missing one from 2016. At the time my son was working only one mile from home, and he always came home for his meal breaks. That was four one-mile trips per day, an average of 4.5 days per week, for an entire year! I'd be willing to bet that none of you can top that for the "short tripping" award.

I should also point out that prior to this last 10k OCI, the vehicle never took any make up oil.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Astro_Guy
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
We need to know what the OP added for makeup oil (maybe he used 20W-50 as makeup oil by mistake), and we need to see if Blackstone is able to retest for viscosity.

The makeup oil was the same Mobil 1 0w20 EP from the same jug as the rest of the oil. It was added roughly halfway thru the OCI.

The prior OCI with 8000 miles included five weekend road trips accounting for 4000 of those miles. The most recent OCI had only two such road trips accounting for only 1700 miles. The car started commuting 550 miles per week, all highway, four weeks before the oil change. The percentage of highway driving was clearly less on this OCI, but will be pushing 100% going forward.

I did contact Blackstone and they didn't think the difference was that significant, but they did agree to test it again and get back to me if there was a significant difference in the result.


Great info/follow-up!

Were the previous intervals (with higher percentage all-highway) at higher sustained speeds than this one? What about this interval?

We drive our 08 Civic down to FL several years ago and drove it faster than ever before - 75 MPH for many hours. We had just gotten it, and with an average Mpg in the mid 30s, we were very glad we chose it over the STI for the trip, which would have been lucky to get 20 Mpg at those speeds and been much louder, if you can believe it!


You would have never gotten 20 mpg. You would have gotten 10, because you would have been doing 95 mph instead of 75
smile.gif



crackmeup2.gif
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
State one thing that will go wrong with his engine if he changes the oil at 5k, as opposed to 10k.


Not a thing. In fact if he keeps service records the car will be easier to sell to most people who check those things, myself included with oil change intervals of 5K vs. 10K. Now if selling the vehicle is something that won't ever happen, then no worries.


Not necessarily. Most people don't know anything about oil, even if they know enough to ask for receipts/records. Showing a potential buyer something as anal-seeming as a UOA report would probably blow them away! "Many, this guy sends his oil out for analysis - his maintenance must be super legit!"

The only time it would matter, is if the vehicle is still within warranty. Even I wouldn't choose a car with super high intervals while it was still in warranty, even it the results showed nicely. Well, maybe if the price was right, like below fair trade-in value with some extras.


I beg to differ. I'd be willing to bet if you could get an honest answer from members here given a choice of two identical cars in every regard, the only difference being the OCI, the majority would take the car with the 5K OCI over the 10K, yourself included.
wink.gif
If a Bitoger said otherwise I'd say bull. OTOH if you can find a buyer that doesn't check, know or care you might have a deal. I sold a lot of cars privately, and was asked many times for maint records, and the people actually took the time to check, and ask intelligent questions. I was also selling those cars for top dollar, maybe that made the difference in the potential buyers.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I'll repeat my earlier post: ask Blackstone if they have enough sample left to check viscosity again.

How many miles into the interval was the makeup oil added? Did you use the same oil for makeup?

Anything different about this run - less idle time than usual, less aggressive driving?

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Don't have any? That is what I thought. Neither do I. So, at very best, our recommendations carry the same weight. I am recommending based on my experience.


The data is in the UOA! All parameters are normal; therefore, 10k is fine. This isn't conjecture or banter; the data is literally at the beginning of this thread. What the heck is BITOG coming to, when we can't even use data as a legitimate point for argument! "yea, that data looks fine, but it just don't feel right!" OR "I don't quite understand all of it, so I'll assume it's not ok!"

That is not what I was referring to specifically. The data I was asking for was that in which it shows any OCI is better than any other, more miles or less miles. 3 UOA's are not complete scientific data. But since you bring it up...
We have 3 UOA's which are at different miles. We don't know what conditions in which each OCI existed, i.e. was one run in the summer? Was one mainly stop-and-go?. The most recent UOA has some significantly different readings than the first two. Why?
So, based on on 3 UOA's with different readings, different miles, and unknown driving conditions, all of which are not on a car you own, you can make a clear and concise decision that changing oil at a certain interval is good, and changing it at another is not?


This site. Why are you demanding scientific data when you have none? You're the one recommending a change based on nothing but "experience" (i.e. what makes me feel better!)...
 
There is none to be had. I was recommending it based on my experience, which I'll stack against just about anyone. All I said to the OP was "looks like a 5k will be good." Almost immediately, I was replied to, not by the OP, with, "How so?" I didn't start this. I was giving my opinion. You can't argue against my opinion any more than I can argue for it. Now if any one has data, using the scientific method, to prove me wrong, go for it. Other than that, it is opinion against opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
State one thing that will go wrong with his engine if he changes the oil at 5k, as opposed to 10k.


What one thing will a 3K OCI cause to go wrong? Engine life will not change with 3-5-10K OCIs with this oil in a Honda engine.

Show me the data.


No data, but I do have 39 years of experience with 10K OCIs. That's all.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
There is none to be had. I was recommending it based on my experience, which I'll stack against just about anyone. All I said to the OP was "looks like a 5k will be good." Almost immediately, I was replied to, not by the OP, with, "How so?" I didn't start this. I was giving my opinion. You can't argue against my opinion any more than I can argue for it. Now if any one has data, using the scientific method, to prove me wrong, go for it. Other than that, it is opinion against opinion.

Would it make you feel any better if I were to admit that I was a 5k OCI guy on all the vehicles prior joining BITOG?
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
State one thing that will go wrong with his engine if he changes the oil at 5k, as opposed to 10k.


Not a thing. In fact if he keeps service records the car will be easier to sell to most people who check those things, myself included with oil change intervals of 5K vs. 10K. Now if selling the vehicle is something that won't ever happen, then no worries.


Not necessarily. Most people don't know anything about oil, even if they know enough to ask for receipts/records. Showing a potential buyer something as anal-seeming as a UOA report would probably blow them away! "Many, this guy sends his oil out for analysis - his maintenance must be super legit!"

The only time it would matter, is if the vehicle is still within warranty. Even I wouldn't choose a car with super high intervals while it was still in warranty, even it the results showed nicely. Well, maybe if the price was right, like below fair trade-in value with some extras.


I beg to differ. I'd be willing to bet if you could get an honest answer from members here given a choice of two identical cars in every regard, the only difference being the OCI, the majority would take the car with the 5K OCI over the 10K, yourself included.
wink.gif
If a Bitoger said otherwise I'd say bull. OTOH if you can find a buyer that doesn't check, know or care you might have a deal. I sold a lot of cars privately, and was asked many times for maint records, and the people actually took the time to check, and ask intelligent questions. I was also selling those cars for top dollar, maybe that made the difference in the potential buyers.


No need to beg - differ all you want, brother!
13.gif


To answer your question: nope, not even close!

If the two cars were identical, then they would have passed all other checks, which would include a review of receipts, a check of fluids and other conditions around the car, as well as a test drive. Selling for top dollar does make a difference, because people will expect more (at a certain price point it also keeps at bay the tire kickers and some low-ballers...or maybe not - some people have no shame!)

Case in point: I found a good price on a '13 Forester before I purchased my '15 Legacy. The price was average, but the guy said his wife drove it like a gramma, mostly high, yada yada yada. The maintenance records were fine, but the car was kind of beat, such as badly swirled paint, minor dog damage inside, etc. The thing that turned me off, was that when I checked the dipstick it was below the add mark halfway through the OCI. The tires were also @ 20# each. So, even though this guy's wife may have had the vehicle serviced every 5-6k miles, they did nothing in-between. That engine might have seen multiple thousands of miles with a sump 2+ quarts low.

Conversely, I ended up trading my STI (due to accident damage, which I disclosed) instead of selling it, but had I sold it privately I would have had UOA to show that intervals longer than most are comfortable with were perfectly fine. I was also tuned Cobb Stage 1 and data-logged religiously, so I could have shown data logs from 3rd-gear pulls and long high trips - every so often, I would setup my laptop to data-log over a couple of hrs during long drives, then condense, set rules and color-code the data for review. With STI's being owned by some who are numbnuts, I would personally have been very pleased to buy one from myself, with UOA and data logs to show things are good (barring the accident).
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool


No need to beg - differ all you want, brother!
13.gif


To answer your question: nope, not even close!

If the two cars were identical, then they would have passed all other checks, which would include a review of receipts, a check of fluids and other conditions around the car, as well as a test drive. Selling for top dollar does make a difference, because people will expect more (at a certain price point it also keeps at bay the tire kickers and some low-ballers...or maybe not - some people have no shame!)

Case in point: I found a good price on a '13 Forester before I purchased my '15 Legacy. The price was average, but the guy said his wife drove it like a gramma, mostly high, yada yada yada. The maintenance records were fine, but the car was kind of beat, such as badly swirled paint, minor dog damage inside, etc. The thing that turned me off, was that when I checked the dipstick it was below the add mark halfway through the OCI. The tires were also @ 20# each. So, even though this guy's wife may have had the vehicle serviced every 5-6k miles, they did nothing in-between. That engine might have seen multiple thousands of miles with a sump 2+ quarts low.

Conversely, I ended up trading my STI (due to accident damage, which I disclosed) instead of selling it, but had I sold it privately I would have had UOA to show that intervals longer than most are comfortable with were perfectly fine. I was also tuned Cobb Stage 1 and data-logged religiously, so I could have shown data logs from 3rd-gear pulls and long high trips - every so often, I would setup my laptop to data-log over a couple of hrs during long drives, then condense, set rules and color-code the data for review. With STI's being owned by some who are numbnuts, I would personally have been very pleased to buy one from myself, with UOA and data logs to show things are good (barring the accident).


No begging I was being polite. You missed my point totally, then put a spin on it. In my example both vehicles were identical, in every regard, price, color, miles, condition, usage, etc. Only I didn't spell it out like I did now, I thought it was clear, sorry. Every single thing identical except the OCI 5K vs. 10K. So basically to you it doesn't matter, or you'd take the car that was serviced with 10K intervals? Sorry I don't take UOA's as Gospel, especially in this case where the terms of my point being made were spelled out and the OCI is twice as long.

And yes, I do know how to price a car and screen people to reduce tire kickers.
wink.gif


Maybe we should post up a poll and ask. No comments just follow the example I laid out above and answer 5K interval or a 10K interval.
 
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