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I'm just kidding and "Messing with Texas'' ...
Mobil Delvac 5W-40 and Ford Spec.
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Originally Posted By: 4WD
I'm just kidding and "Messing with Texas'' ...
Ah...no worries. Written communication is the most ineffective form--it is hard to see humor with just text on the screen.
I'm just kidding and "Messing with Texas'' ...
Ah...no worries. Written communication is the most ineffective form--it is hard to see humor with just text on the screen.
Originally Posted By: NattyBoh
Yeah I understand you.... Just hard to do something against the manufacturer and what they recommend... Granted I have a 6.0, but still has me weary
If it were me and under warranty, I'd be concerned and lean towards the actual approved oil. After warranty, and particularly with an engine that isn't part of the concern here (just part of the extended Ford panic), I wouldn't worry.
Originally Posted By: claluja
Yes, obviously API doesn't care. This was made very clear when Ford repeatedly told API during the CK4 approval process that some CK4s were failing it's tests regarding valve train wear. Ford asked API to break up CK4 into low P and high P categories, since some low phosphorous (P) oils were failing. API told Ford to pound sand, and didn't care one bit.
There are a few things to look at in this vein. First off, why should one OEM's concerns over one engine hold up the entire API regime, and then, subsequently, the ACEA regime, since ACEA E specifications baseline off of API C specifications? No one else had a problem, except Ford with one engine.
Secondly, the CK-4/FA-4 business is complicated enough for ordinary consumers as it is. It doesn't need to be more complicated, just to suit Ford. Also, note, that in effect, Ford does have exactly what you suggest, low P and high P categories. CK-4/SN in ILSAC grades (0w-30, 5w-30, and 10w-30) will have low phosphorus. CK-4/SN in the 40 grades and oils that are solely CK-4 can be high phosphorus, at the oil company's discretion. If high phosphorus Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 CK-4 only and high phosphorus Rotella T6 5w-40 CK-4 only aren't good enough to address Ford's complaints, then I'm not sure what they really want. In reference to 4WD's post, what does Ford want, a symbol of Calvin urinating on Ram and GMC symbols below the API Donut to reflect Ford approval? If they're not satisfied with CK-4, dump the API regime and rely on builder approvals only. Then they can write whatever requirements they want and be as marginal as they want.
Shell, Mobil, Castrol, Chevron, and even Petro-Canada have all come out with E6 low phosphorus lubes, with all but Shell doing so even under CJ-4. Time moves forward, while Ford is moving backwards.
Like I mentioned, take a look at that list. Shell, Mobil, and Castrol don't have a single 5w-40 example on Ford's list. Chevron hasn't got a single example of any viscosity on the list. Given that the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 and the T6 5w-40 retain high phosphorus, and even skipped over the SN specification (which doesn't even matter in 5w-40), and haven't obtained the Ford specification, I would wager that obtaining that specification is very low on the list of priorities of Mobil and Shell. Apparently, it doesn't even show up on Chevron's list of priorities whatsoever.
Userfriendly is right about Ford/FIAT, and you have to watch King of the Hill. It's intentionally flubbed up on the show for comedic effect.
Yeah I understand you.... Just hard to do something against the manufacturer and what they recommend... Granted I have a 6.0, but still has me weary
If it were me and under warranty, I'd be concerned and lean towards the actual approved oil. After warranty, and particularly with an engine that isn't part of the concern here (just part of the extended Ford panic), I wouldn't worry.
Originally Posted By: claluja
Yes, obviously API doesn't care. This was made very clear when Ford repeatedly told API during the CK4 approval process that some CK4s were failing it's tests regarding valve train wear. Ford asked API to break up CK4 into low P and high P categories, since some low phosphorous (P) oils were failing. API told Ford to pound sand, and didn't care one bit.
There are a few things to look at in this vein. First off, why should one OEM's concerns over one engine hold up the entire API regime, and then, subsequently, the ACEA regime, since ACEA E specifications baseline off of API C specifications? No one else had a problem, except Ford with one engine.
Secondly, the CK-4/FA-4 business is complicated enough for ordinary consumers as it is. It doesn't need to be more complicated, just to suit Ford. Also, note, that in effect, Ford does have exactly what you suggest, low P and high P categories. CK-4/SN in ILSAC grades (0w-30, 5w-30, and 10w-30) will have low phosphorus. CK-4/SN in the 40 grades and oils that are solely CK-4 can be high phosphorus, at the oil company's discretion. If high phosphorus Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 CK-4 only and high phosphorus Rotella T6 5w-40 CK-4 only aren't good enough to address Ford's complaints, then I'm not sure what they really want. In reference to 4WD's post, what does Ford want, a symbol of Calvin urinating on Ram and GMC symbols below the API Donut to reflect Ford approval? If they're not satisfied with CK-4, dump the API regime and rely on builder approvals only. Then they can write whatever requirements they want and be as marginal as they want.
Shell, Mobil, Castrol, Chevron, and even Petro-Canada have all come out with E6 low phosphorus lubes, with all but Shell doing so even under CJ-4. Time moves forward, while Ford is moving backwards.
Like I mentioned, take a look at that list. Shell, Mobil, and Castrol don't have a single 5w-40 example on Ford's list. Chevron hasn't got a single example of any viscosity on the list. Given that the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 and the T6 5w-40 retain high phosphorus, and even skipped over the SN specification (which doesn't even matter in 5w-40), and haven't obtained the Ford specification, I would wager that obtaining that specification is very low on the list of priorities of Mobil and Shell. Apparently, it doesn't even show up on Chevron's list of priorities whatsoever.
Userfriendly is right about Ford/FIAT, and you have to watch King of the Hill. It's intentionally flubbed up on the show for comedic effect.
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Thankfully I don't need an excuse not to buy a Ford. According to Hank (King of the Hill) Hill, Ford stands for "Fix it again Tony".
I think you are looking for "Fix Or Repair Daily" or perhaps "Freaking Old Rebuilt Dodge" or even "Found On Road Dead".
But, for most Ford owners it is First On Race Day.
You guys have it all wrong..
Federal Ownership Respectfully Declined
That would be in lieu of the government bailout... Think GM
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Thankfully I don't need an excuse not to buy a Ford. According to Hank (King of the Hill) Hill, Ford stands for "Fix it again Tony".
I think you are looking for "Fix Or Repair Daily" or perhaps "Freaking Old Rebuilt Dodge" or even "Found On Road Dead".
But, for most Ford owners it is First On Race Day.
You guys have it all wrong..
Federal Ownership Respectfully Declined
That would be in lieu of the government bailout... Think GM
Garak
I was unaware that there were two levels of oil/levels of phos and zn... Interesting. So being were talking 5w40, we just need to find an oil that starts off with higher levels. And it'll be out there, just have to see who's going to make it. Wonder how Valvoline premium blue is...
But as been said Delo LE 5w40 is still cj4.
I was unaware that there were two levels of oil/levels of phos and zn... Interesting. So being were talking 5w40, we just need to find an oil that starts off with higher levels. And it'll be out there, just have to see who's going to make it. Wonder how Valvoline premium blue is...
But as been said Delo LE 5w40 is still cj4.
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Originally Posted By: NattyBoh
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Thankfully I don't need an excuse not to buy a Ford. According to Hank (King of the Hill) Hill, Ford stands for "Fix it again Tony".
I think you are looking for "Fix Or Repair Daily" or perhaps "Freaking Old Rebuilt Dodge" or even "Found On Road Dead".
But, for most Ford owners it is First On Race Day.
You guys have it all wrong..
Federal Ownership Respectfully Declined
That would be in lieu of the government bailout... Think GM
LOL - well, that too.
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Thankfully I don't need an excuse not to buy a Ford. According to Hank (King of the Hill) Hill, Ford stands for "Fix it again Tony".
I think you are looking for "Fix Or Repair Daily" or perhaps "Freaking Old Rebuilt Dodge" or even "Found On Road Dead".
But, for most Ford owners it is First On Race Day.
You guys have it all wrong..
Federal Ownership Respectfully Declined
That would be in lieu of the government bailout... Think GM
LOL - well, that too.
Originally Posted By: NattyBoh
Garak
I was unaware that there were two levels of oil/levels of phos and zn... Interesting. So being were talking 5w40, we just need to find an oil that starts off with higher levels. And it'll be out there, just have to see who's going to make it. Wonder how Valvoline premium blue is...
But as been said Delo LE 5w40 is still cj4.
There aren't specifically two levels set out, since we don't see one level with a higher minimum. We do see a higher maximum; a purely CK-4 lube or a CK-4/SN 5w-40 could have more than the equivalent CK-4/SN 10w-30 HDEO, which has to abide by ILSAC levels, being a 10w-30 grade. 5w-40 can have more in either case, but may not have more if they are using a lower treat rate; they don't have to have more. All indications have been that Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 and Rotella T6 5w-40 are retaining roughly the same phosphorus levels.
The problem with trying to source a CJ-4 lube is that it may or may not remain readily available. When CJ-4 came out, CI-4 and CI-4+ disappeared very rapidly from their warehouses. The only CJ-4 Mobil lube I can think of right now is the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30, which is, incidentally, a low phosphorus lube, with Ford's old approval.
Where I feel for Ford owners is that they have to try to source a lube of the previous specification (and I can't see the big oil companies filling Walmart shelves with CJ-4 and CK-4, considering they won't even bother with the Ford spec) or finding a lube with the Ford spec, which is a lot more problematic when it comes to a 5w-40. It shouldn't be easier to find an LL-01 approved lube than it should be to find an oil with the formal Ford approval, yet here we are.
Garak
I was unaware that there were two levels of oil/levels of phos and zn... Interesting. So being were talking 5w40, we just need to find an oil that starts off with higher levels. And it'll be out there, just have to see who's going to make it. Wonder how Valvoline premium blue is...
But as been said Delo LE 5w40 is still cj4.
There aren't specifically two levels set out, since we don't see one level with a higher minimum. We do see a higher maximum; a purely CK-4 lube or a CK-4/SN 5w-40 could have more than the equivalent CK-4/SN 10w-30 HDEO, which has to abide by ILSAC levels, being a 10w-30 grade. 5w-40 can have more in either case, but may not have more if they are using a lower treat rate; they don't have to have more. All indications have been that Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 and Rotella T6 5w-40 are retaining roughly the same phosphorus levels.
The problem with trying to source a CJ-4 lube is that it may or may not remain readily available. When CJ-4 came out, CI-4 and CI-4+ disappeared very rapidly from their warehouses. The only CJ-4 Mobil lube I can think of right now is the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30, which is, incidentally, a low phosphorus lube, with Ford's old approval.
Where I feel for Ford owners is that they have to try to source a lube of the previous specification (and I can't see the big oil companies filling Walmart shelves with CJ-4 and CK-4, considering they won't even bother with the Ford spec) or finding a lube with the Ford spec, which is a lot more problematic when it comes to a 5w-40. It shouldn't be easier to find an LL-01 approved lube than it should be to find an oil with the formal Ford approval, yet here we are.
Rotella T6 5w40 initially lowered phosphorous (P) and zinc (Zn) both about 200 ppm (P dropped to below 1000) when they went from CJ4 to CK4. Lately, looks like they may have inched zddp back up some, presumably based on Ford's issue with low P (below 1000 ppm) CK4 oils increasing valvetrain wear. So, no, T6 5w40 didn't retain roughly the same P level. If they had, there likely would have been much less controversy about this whole CK4 Ford issue, since T6 5w40 was probably the most popular powerstroke oil.
bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4403418/CK-4_RT6:__What_have_they_done#Post4403418
bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4403418/CK-4_RT6:__What_have_they_done#Post4403418
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Yes, I've seen that post before. One analysis is one data point, and we always have to be cautious about that, particularly when it contradicts what Shell had said. We've seen strange VOA results before.
If Shell were altering formulations based upon Ford's issue, I'm wondering where the formal approval is.
If Shell were altering formulations based upon Ford's issue, I'm wondering where the formal approval is.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
What I would do if I had a 6.7 (which I don't) is use my favorite CJ4 oil and add no more than 1/2 bottle (4 oz) of Redline Break-In additive, which consists of 20500ppm Zn and 17000 ppm P in the form of mainly secondary ZDDPs, and 20500 ppm Ca in the form of detergent, not sure if it is sulfonate, phenate or salicylate. In a 12qt oil pain that would increase Zn by about 350-400ppm and P slightly less.
Secondary ZDDP molecules are more reactive and get "used up" quicker than primary ZDDPs; I wouldn't worry about that much since most 6.7 owners use extremely short 5-7.5Kmi OCIs.
Charlie
Actually 1/2 bottle is 8 oz
What I should have said is use my favorite CK4 oil (not CJ4) and add 1/2 bottle Redline Break-In Additive for a 12qt pan.
Charlie
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
What I would do if I had a 6.7 (which I don't) is use my favorite CJ4 oil and add no more than 1/2 bottle (4 oz) of Redline Break-In additive, which consists of 20500ppm Zn and 17000 ppm P in the form of mainly secondary ZDDPs, and 20500 ppm Ca in the form of detergent, not sure if it is sulfonate, phenate or salicylate. In a 12qt oil pain that would increase Zn by about 350-400ppm and P slightly less.
Secondary ZDDP molecules are more reactive and get "used up" quicker than primary ZDDPs; I wouldn't worry about that much since most 6.7 owners use extremely short 5-7.5Kmi OCIs.
Charlie
Actually 1/2 bottle is 8 oz
What I should have said is use my favorite CK4 oil (not CJ4) and add 1/2 bottle Redline Break-In Additive for a 12qt pan.
Charlie
Originally Posted By: NattyBoh
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Thankfully I don't need an excuse not to buy a Ford. According to Hank (King of the Hill) Hill, Ford stands for "Fix it again Tony".
I think you are looking for "Fix Or Repair Daily" or perhaps "Freaking Old Rebuilt Dodge" or even "Found On Road Dead".
But, for most Ford owners it is First On Race Day.
You guys have it all wrong..
Federal Ownership Respectfully Declined
That would be in lieu of the government bailout... Think GM
Nah....
6.7 owners know it means Finding Oil Really Difficult
6.4 owners know it means First On Rockerarm Destruction
6.0 owners know it means Fouled Oil-Cooler Really Desperate
7.3 owners know it means Finally One Reliable Diesel
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Thankfully I don't need an excuse not to buy a Ford. According to Hank (King of the Hill) Hill, Ford stands for "Fix it again Tony".
I think you are looking for "Fix Or Repair Daily" or perhaps "Freaking Old Rebuilt Dodge" or even "Found On Road Dead".
But, for most Ford owners it is First On Race Day.
You guys have it all wrong..
Federal Ownership Respectfully Declined
That would be in lieu of the government bailout... Think GM
Nah....
6.7 owners know it means Finding Oil Really Difficult
6.4 owners know it means First On Rockerarm Destruction
6.0 owners know it means Fouled Oil-Cooler Really Desperate
7.3 owners know it means Finally One Reliable Diesel
No mention of 7 bolt wheels?
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