Minivan choices

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by paqza
Originally Posted by edyvw
That VW Touran, the Dodge with VW badge was going super cheap as no VW customer wanted VW with Chrysler engine.
I think used are also super cheap. I think VW on them did some brakes improvement, handling and steering. Reliability wise is probably same as Dodge.


You're confusing the Touran with the Routan. The Touran was/is based on the Golf/MQB platforms and was never sold in the US. The Routan was based on the Caravan. VW sucks at naming their cars.

Sorry, Routan lol
I am familiar with Touran as I had one for my business in Europe, so that is where I had that name in the head.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by paqza
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by buddylpal
A 4cylinder Sienna would be last on my list for minivans.It's probably reliable and definitely much easier to work on in that cramped engine compartment, but that must be the slowest vehicle on the road and would make driving much more of a chore.
+1
Stay away from the 4-cylinder Sienna. I spent a week in one (rented it). The van is FAR too heavy for that engine. It drives fine around town (on a test drive), but it is woefully underpowered on the highway, and worse when it is carrying 4-5 passengers and their luggage. Toyota discontinued the 4-cylinder because they couldn't sell them due to this.
Because of this, I have strong reservations about the 2021 Sienna's discontinuing the V/6 and going with a 4-cylinder Hybrid only drivetrain.


I'm looking forward would to test driving one of the new hybrids. Even though it's a 4-cylinder and the horsepower's down, it's going to be extremely torquey with the electric motor. The instant acceleration from the electric motor will probably make it feel faster and more responsive than the V6, at least based on my experience with the RAV4/RAV4 Hybrid.

It is really not hard to make faster Sienna than current one with V6. While V6 is definiately must go option with current generation Sienna, engine is really not well suited for minivan. It is lazy at low rpm's, it is ok around 4k to 5k then it just drops dead. Current V6 with DI technology IMO is even worse at lower rpm's. So hybrid might be actually more pleasant to drive. Here in the Rockies if one wants to keep up with traffic, he/she better be willing to work transmission manually with current V6 and keep it above 4k rpms. Other vans are no better, just for clarification.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by paqza
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by buddylpal
A 4cylinder Sienna would be last on my list for minivans.It's probably reliable and definitely much easier to work on in that cramped engine compartment, but that must be the slowest vehicle on the road and would make driving much more of a chore.
+1
Stay away from the 4-cylinder Sienna. I spent a week in one (rented it). The van is FAR too heavy for that engine. It drives fine around town (on a test drive), but it is woefully underpowered on the highway, and worse when it is carrying 4-5 passengers and their luggage. Toyota discontinued the 4-cylinder because they couldn't sell them due to this.
Because of this, I have strong reservations about the 2021 Sienna's discontinuing the V/6 and going with a 4-cylinder Hybrid only drivetrain.


I'm looking forward would to test driving one of the new hybrids. Even though it's a 4-cylinder and the horsepower's down, it's going to be extremely torquey with the electric motor. The instant acceleration from the electric motor will probably make it feel faster and more responsive than the V6, at least based on my experience with the RAV4/RAV4 Hybrid.

It is really not hard to make faster Sienna than current one with V6. While V6 is definiately must go option with current generation Sienna, engine is really not well suited for minivan. It is lazy at low rpm's, it is ok around 4k to 5k then it just drops dead. Current V6 with DI technology IMO is even worse at lower rpm's. So hybrid might be actually more pleasant to drive. Here in the Rockies if one wants to keep up with traffic, he/she better be willing to work transmission manually with current V6 and keep it above 4k rpms. Other vans are no better, just for clarification.
The new Hybrid drivetrain in the Sienna should be a good driving van in the city, but since the van won't be any lighter (perhaps even heavier) or have much improved aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by wag123
...aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.


Interesting. We drove our 4 cyl NA Previa for 230k+ miles, all over the country on all kinds of terrain, and never had a safety concern or incident.

 

[supton]

There was one intersection that I drove through a few times where I was concerned about safety--typical on-ramp with zero merging, couldn't hit it with any speed, and typical MA traffic could be thick and moving. My Camry made me fear a bit on that, and had me rethink the notion of "just enough power" being good enough.

Luckily I don't have to go that way anymore, so, no more problem.

 

[edyvw]

Quote
The new Hybrid drivetrain in the Sienna should be a good driving van in the city, but since the van won't be any lighter (perhaps even heavier) or have much improved aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.

Not sure, we will see. Mountain terrain means a lot of uphill, but also downhill where battery will have a chance to recharge, somewhat. I agree that it still might turn as a dud. I think personally much better option than V6 would be 2.0T from Lexus, though that engine is nothing special compared to other 2.0T on market. But, 258lb-ft down low would make perfect engine for minivan. I drove for two weeks 2015 BMW X5 40e that had 2.0T engine across the Rockies and that thing will keep up with any V8 uphill, and pack 400lbs more than Sienna (though it has also ZF8 transmission, which helps, a lot). If Toyota wanted hybrid and less complexity, yes V6 with hybrid system would be better or another model just with V6. But, let's see. I know one thing, I will not own one.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by wag123
...aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.


Interesting. We drove our 4 cyl NA Previa for 230k+ miles, all over the country on all kinds of terrain, and never had a safety concern or incident.

Yeah, but Previa was much lighter. Current Sienna considering its size is actually not that heavy (AWD limited packs some 4,700lbs), but 4,700lbs is still 4,700lbs. Previa was probably around 4,000lbs at best.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by wag123
...aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.


Interesting. We drove our 4 cyl NA Previa for 230k+ miles, all over the country on all kinds of terrain, and never had a safety concern or incident.

Yeah, but Previa was much lighter. Current Sienna considering its size is actually not that heavy (AWD limited packs some 4,700lbs), but 4,700lbs is still 4,700lbs. Previa was probably around 4,000lbs at best.
That's 4700 lbs dry. An AWD Sienna will typically weigh well over 5000 lbs as it goes down the road. Giving up more than 50 hp is going to be VERY noticable!
The Previa was 3755 lbs dry and it was way underpowered IMO, enough so that Toyota offered an optional supercharger on it after the first couple of years production, and it still wasn't enough. Also, it was introduced in an era of the 55 mph national speed limit. It would have had trouble keeping up with the 70-80 speed limits we now have.
Personally, I would have to rent one of the new Hybrid Siennas for a week before I would consider purchasing one.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by wag123
...aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.


Interesting. We drove our 4 cyl NA Previa for 230k+ miles, all over the country on all kinds of terrain, and never had a safety concern or incident.

Yeah, but Previa was much lighter. Current Sienna considering its size is actually not that heavy (AWD limited packs some 4,700lbs), but 4,700lbs is still 4,700lbs. Previa was probably around 4,000lbs at best.
That's 4700 lbs dry. An AWD Sienna will typically weigh well over 5000 lbs as it goes down the road. Giving up more than 50 hp is going to be VERY noticable!
The Previa was 3755 lbs dry and it was way underpowered IMO, enough so that Toyota offered an optional supercharger on it after the first couple of years production, and it still wasn't enough. Also, it was introduced in an era of the 55 mph national speed limit. It would have had trouble keeping up with the 70-80 speed limits we now have.
Personally, I would have to rent one of the new Hybrid Siennas for a week before I would consider purchasing one.

Other cars are also measured dry. 4,700lbs for such large vehicle is not a lot at all. Road noise etc. proves why that is the case.
Toyota eliminated V6 from RAV4, yet average Toyota driver did not care. So it is aimed at average Toyota driver that will stay in left lane and keep it 20mph below speed limit.
They will sell all they make, I have no doubt, without discount.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota eliminated V6 from RAV4, yet average Toyota driver did not care. So it is aimed at average Toyota driver that will stay in left lane and keep it 20mph below speed limit.
Nonsense.

Originally Posted by edyvw
They will sell all they make, I have no doubt, without discount.
Not necessarily. Toyota had a very hard time selling the 4-cylinder Siennas, which led them to discontinue it. The retail buyers wouldn't purchase them so the Toyota dealers didn't want them, which led to Toyota selling the majority of them to the rental car companies at a steep discount, then, after awhile, the rental car companies didn't want them either because their customers were complaining about how underpowered they were.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota eliminated V6 from RAV4, yet average Toyota driver did not care. So it is aimed at average Toyota driver that will stay in left lane and keep it 20mph below speed limit.
Nonsense.

Originally Posted by edyvw
They will sell all they make, I have no doubt, without discount.
Not necessarily. Toyota had a very hard time selling the 4-cylinder Siennas, which led them to discontinue it. The retail buyers wouldn't purchase them so the Toyota dealers didn't want them, which led to Toyota selling the majority of them to the rental car companies at a steep discount, then, after awhile, the rental car companies didn't want them either because their customers were complaining about how underpowered they were.

It is going to be punchier than 4cyl. People will buy, though it won't be as popular as Highlander as now everyone wants SUV. If sale is bad, they can always add V6 only option. Not that average Toyota driver would notice.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Not that average Toyota driver would notice.

Thankfully they have you to tell them what they are not noticing.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not that average Toyota driver would notice.

Thankfully they have you to tell them what they are not noticing.

Considering how they drive, not sure they are interested in other drivers opinion. Actually I am not sure they notice vehicles around them, let alone drivers in them.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not that average Toyota driver would notice.

Thankfully they have you to tell them what they are not noticing.

Considering how they drive, not sure they are interested in other drivers opinion. Actually I am not sure they notice vehicles around them, let alone drivers in them.

Whatever. Just remember, you are a Toyota driver too--you denigrate yourself also in that statement.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by wag123
...aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.


Interesting. We drove our 4 cyl NA Previa for 230k+ miles, all over the country on all kinds of terrain, and never had a safety concern or incident.

Yeah, but Previa was much lighter. Current Sienna considering its size is actually not that heavy (AWD limited packs some 4,700lbs), but 4,700lbs is still 4,700lbs. Previa was probably around 4,000lbs at best.


And had appreciably LESS power to match. So...??? At speed it had no issue keeping at 75 mph.

To think that all vehicles need to keep full speed in all conditions on all grades is just lunacy. And the number of conditions where it's really an issue is overblown.

Tractor trailers wouldn't be able to exist with the mindset of some. Which is wasteful amongst anything else. Keeping at an obnoxious speed is silly, and thinking that more acceleration is the answer for safety is downright dangerous and the sign of an impatient, confidence-lacking driver.

More power is a convenience.

And now folks are speculating that Toyota engineers don't know enough to be able to design a drivetrain that will provide sustained speed and loading under all conditions... purely speculative, and with zero experience with the platform.

 

[paqza]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by paqza
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by buddylpal
A 4cylinder Sienna would be last on my list for minivans.It's probably reliable and definitely much easier to work on in that cramped engine compartment, but that must be the slowest vehicle on the road and would make driving much more of a chore.
+1
Stay away from the 4-cylinder Sienna. I spent a week in one (rented it). The van is FAR too heavy for that engine. It drives fine around town (on a test drive), but it is woefully underpowered on the highway, and worse when it is carrying 4-5 passengers and their luggage. Toyota discontinued the 4-cylinder because they couldn't sell them due to this.
Because of this, I have strong reservations about the 2021 Sienna's discontinuing the V/6 and going with a 4-cylinder Hybrid only drivetrain.


I'm looking forward would to test driving one of the new hybrids. Even though it's a 4-cylinder and the horsepower's down, it's going to be extremely torquey with the electric motor. The instant acceleration from the electric motor will probably make it feel faster and more responsive than the V6, at least based on my experience with the RAV4/RAV4 Hybrid.

It is really not hard to make faster Sienna than current one with V6. While V6 is definiately must go option with current generation Sienna, engine is really not well suited for minivan. It is lazy at low rpm's, it is ok around 4k to 5k then it just drops dead. Current V6 with DI technology IMO is even worse at lower rpm's. So hybrid might be actually more pleasant to drive. Here in the Rockies if one wants to keep up with traffic, he/she better be willing to work transmission manually with current V6 and keep it above 4k rpms. Other vans are no better, just for clarification.
The new Hybrid drivetrain in the Sienna should be a good driving van in the city, but since the van won't be any lighter (perhaps even heavier) or have much improved aerodynamics, the highway performance is not going to be nearly as good as the V6. In your particular case edy, driving it in mountainous terrain will likely be very problematic because the battery pack will run out of juice on long uphill runs, so the electric power assist will quickly become unusable and you would be on gas power only. Having the power of an Atkinson cycle 2.5L 4-cylinder engine trying to pull 5000 lbs will make it dangerous in traffic IMO.
I still think that Toyota is making a big mistake by eliminating the V6, and I predict that they are going to lose market share because of it. Toyota won't stand for that very long and I suspect that the V6 will be back in a year or two.

If anything, I think it'll gain market share vs the Odyssey. Minivans are hyper-rational purchases and MPG is a huge part of that.

 

[SeaJay]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not that average Toyota driver would notice.

Thankfully they have you to tell them what they are not noticing.

Considering how they drive, not sure they are interested in other drivers opinion. Actually I am not sure they notice vehicles around them, let alone drivers in them.

Whatever. Just remember, you are a Toyota driver too--you denigrate yourself also in that statement.

So it is denigrating to drive around in a non-performance vehicle and at the same time not worrying about the opinions of the enthusiast crowd??

 

[edyvw]

So it is denigrating to drive around in a non-performance vehicle and at the same time not worrying about the opinions of the enthusiast crowd??

What non-performance vehicle?

 

[wag123]

What non-performance vehicle?
View attachment 25060

The hybrid drive train isn't going to do that!
That is an amazing average MPG figure you are getting edy considering how large/heavy the van is, the fact that is an AWD, the mountainous terrain you drive in, and how fast you are going.

 

[Nick1994]

The hybrid drive train isn't going to do that!
That is an amazing average MPG figure you are getting edy considering how large/heavy the van is, the fact that is an AWD, the mountainous terrain you drive in, and how fast you are going.

Why couldn’t a hybrid get to 110 mph?