Add pack, amount of VII is my guess. The blending of the different base stocks. M1 HM 10w-30 is very quiet in my engine, but it is also a thick 30 with HTHS 3.5
Lifter noise only when startups below 50 degrees
- Thread starter PalmSpringsSCal
- Start date
- Status
did the noise increase/decrease with temps like ours too?
thanks for your replies to each question. The light bulb worked great,but as you said,its only temporary. i have been hesitant to use syn cause of possible oil seeps that may develop. i may slip in a qt and see if it helps quiet the 50 degree startups or not. Im assuming 1 qt only because 5 qts may cause be a higher risk for creating leaks while just 1 qt of syn could be just enough to quiet it down,with less chance of leaks developing.? is just one qt of syn significant on reducing lifter noise/wear? maybe so maybe no. just experimenting a little.
i may just try different oils afterward if no advantage w syn heard.
i may just try different oils afterward if no advantage w syn heard.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
thanks for your replies to each question. The light bulb worked great,but as you said,its only temporary. i have been hesitant to use syn cause of possible oil seeps that may develop.
Use a High Mileage version of one of the synthetics then. It should contain ingredients specifically meant to counteract the old-age leak syndrome that worries you.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
i may slip in a qt and see if it helps quiet the 50 degree startups or not. Im assuming 1 qt only because 5 qts may cause be a higher risk for creating leaks while just 1 qt of syn could be just enough to quiet it down,with less chance of leaks developing.?
If your engine was going to actually develop an oil leak as a result of running the synthetic oil, it would require you to run 1 or more OCIs of synthetic at full dosage to make things happen. I guess you could run 4 OCIs at 3/5 synthetic or something to get it to leak, but honestly I wouldn't worry about that very much. If it concerns you, and it sounds as though it certainly does, then just choose a HM synthetic oil. That will be the best hedge against leaking seals I think, assuming there are any that will begin to leak with synthetic.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
is just one qt of syn significant on reducing lifter noise/wear?
Two things:
1. you don't have lifters in that engine. What you have are followers, but that's just a fancy way of referring to the arse-end of the rocker arms. They perform t\he same function as a lifter does in a push-rod engine, which is to move up and down according to the cam lobe that it is resting upon. But with a follower, it does not depend upon a push-rod on its opposite end to actuate the rocker arm to then open the valve, it is part of the actual rocker arm itself. So when the follower moves upward, the rocker arm pivots and pushes the valve downward to open it up in the cylinder.
2. I would want to figure out once and for all what was actually making the noise (and why, if possible) before I started experimenting with possible fixes. It sounds to me like your rocker assemblies are wearing out and making these sounds, but I could be wrong. If you have the time, space, tools, ability, etc. to pull the engine's valve covers off, you should be able to verify or rule out the rocker assemblies as your culprits. If they are, (or if one is), the rocker arms should be visually worn or slightly off-kilter with teh cam lobe, and therefore most likely to be making the racket.
In that case, it is possible that doing some sort of synthetic mix in your oil changes will help, but it is possible it will not have an effect at all. It is also possible that a synthetic oil change will make the noise worse.
If the rockers are making the noise, it's not because the oil in use lacks quality or isn't slippery enough. It is because the mechanism by which the rocker assemblies are delivered oil is out of whack. Maybe it's slightly turned, reducing the flow of oil to the valve train, or maybe it's got uneven spots from metal on metal scoring which cause it to periodically lodge in a position such that no oil is being delivered to the rockers, and it will not unlodge from that position until the oil warms a bit and is viscous enough to get in there and dislodge it. It's difficult to pinpoint the true culprit here, but resolving it will not be as easy as using a synthetic oil or a syn-blend.
The hardware got into that shape for a reason, whether it's poor manufacturing or poor oil in the past, whatever. The hardware is no longer true and will continue to wear unevenly until it is replaced or fails. Running different engine oils may slow that uneven wear, or it may accelerate it. And completely independant of that wear performance is the oils effects on the ticking noise. Just because one oil quietens it a bit, doesn't mean that oil is slowing the wear of the parts the best too.
If the oil is prone to draining off at night more readily than others, it would protect the least. Yet, it might also be the quickest to get pumped in between the parts to stop the tick, and so you would want to use that oil because it made things sound better, but you wouldn't be aware you were accelerating the valvetrain's wear by using that very same oil due to its propensity to disappear when left to sit.
i
Now that's a hypothetical scenario, and probably not likely to occur. But it is possible, so I wanted to make note of it to illustrate how much of a [censored] shoot it is to just try different oils and hope to fix all this. In the long run, you won't hurt the engine an appreciable amount more by running different oils, synthetic or conventional. So in that context, I say, "go nuts!" Try whatever oil you want and run the one that makes you the happiest.
But keep in mind that you could spend a lot of time and money and end up with no measurable difference in the sound of the ticking coming from the engine. So just make sure you maintain realistic expectations for whatever you try. That's all I'm trying to say.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
maybe so maybe no. just experimenting a little.
i may just try different oils afterward if no advantage w syn heard.
all you can do is try it and see. but whatever you do, be sure to document it on this forum for the benefit (and amusement?) of the other members should they find your thread during a search for info for their own situations.
Nuke
thanks for your replies to each question. The light bulb worked great,but as you said,its only temporary. i have been hesitant to use syn cause of possible oil seeps that may develop.
Use a High Mileage version of one of the synthetics then. It should contain ingredients specifically meant to counteract the old-age leak syndrome that worries you.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
i may slip in a qt and see if it helps quiet the 50 degree startups or not. Im assuming 1 qt only because 5 qts may cause be a higher risk for creating leaks while just 1 qt of syn could be just enough to quiet it down,with less chance of leaks developing.?
If your engine was going to actually develop an oil leak as a result of running the synthetic oil, it would require you to run 1 or more OCIs of synthetic at full dosage to make things happen. I guess you could run 4 OCIs at 3/5 synthetic or something to get it to leak, but honestly I wouldn't worry about that very much. If it concerns you, and it sounds as though it certainly does, then just choose a HM synthetic oil. That will be the best hedge against leaking seals I think, assuming there are any that will begin to leak with synthetic.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
is just one qt of syn significant on reducing lifter noise/wear?
Two things:
1. you don't have lifters in that engine. What you have are followers, but that's just a fancy way of referring to the arse-end of the rocker arms. They perform t\he same function as a lifter does in a push-rod engine, which is to move up and down according to the cam lobe that it is resting upon. But with a follower, it does not depend upon a push-rod on its opposite end to actuate the rocker arm to then open the valve, it is part of the actual rocker arm itself. So when the follower moves upward, the rocker arm pivots and pushes the valve downward to open it up in the cylinder.
2. I would want to figure out once and for all what was actually making the noise (and why, if possible) before I started experimenting with possible fixes. It sounds to me like your rocker assemblies are wearing out and making these sounds, but I could be wrong. If you have the time, space, tools, ability, etc. to pull the engine's valve covers off, you should be able to verify or rule out the rocker assemblies as your culprits. If they are, (or if one is), the rocker arms should be visually worn or slightly off-kilter with teh cam lobe, and therefore most likely to be making the racket.
In that case, it is possible that doing some sort of synthetic mix in your oil changes will help, but it is possible it will not have an effect at all. It is also possible that a synthetic oil change will make the noise worse.
If the rockers are making the noise, it's not because the oil in use lacks quality or isn't slippery enough. It is because the mechanism by which the rocker assemblies are delivered oil is out of whack. Maybe it's slightly turned, reducing the flow of oil to the valve train, or maybe it's got uneven spots from metal on metal scoring which cause it to periodically lodge in a position such that no oil is being delivered to the rockers, and it will not unlodge from that position until the oil warms a bit and is viscous enough to get in there and dislodge it. It's difficult to pinpoint the true culprit here, but resolving it will not be as easy as using a synthetic oil or a syn-blend.
The hardware got into that shape for a reason, whether it's poor manufacturing or poor oil in the past, whatever. The hardware is no longer true and will continue to wear unevenly until it is replaced or fails. Running different engine oils may slow that uneven wear, or it may accelerate it. And completely independant of that wear performance is the oils effects on the ticking noise. Just because one oil quietens it a bit, doesn't mean that oil is slowing the wear of the parts the best too.
If the oil is prone to draining off at night more readily than others, it would protect the least. Yet, it might also be the quickest to get pumped in between the parts to stop the tick, and so you would want to use that oil because it made things sound better, but you wouldn't be aware you were accelerating the valvetrain's wear by using that very same oil due to its propensity to disappear when left to sit.
i
Now that's a hypothetical scenario, and probably not likely to occur. But it is possible, so I wanted to make note of it to illustrate how much of a [censored] shoot it is to just try different oils and hope to fix all this. In the long run, you won't hurt the engine an appreciable amount more by running different oils, synthetic or conventional. So in that context, I say, "go nuts!" Try whatever oil you want and run the one that makes you the happiest.
But keep in mind that you could spend a lot of time and money and end up with no measurable difference in the sound of the ticking coming from the engine. So just make sure you maintain realistic expectations for whatever you try. That's all I'm trying to say.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
maybe so maybe no. just experimenting a little.
i may just try different oils afterward if no advantage w syn heard.
all you can do is try it and see. but whatever you do, be sure to document it on this forum for the benefit (and amusement?) of the other members should they find your thread during a search for info for their own situations.
Nuke
thx again for the time for your opinions. I will keep records and post. BTW where is a link I can request someone to change an incorrect mileage I put in the subject of my post.I stated 130K but is actually 230K
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
thx again for the time for your opinions. I will keep records and post. BTW where is a link I can request someone to change an incorrect mileage I put in the subject of my post.I stated 130K but is actually 230K
Alright, that piece of into paints all this in a whole 'nother light...I mean, I don't know how much time and effort and money you plan on throwing at this valve train noise reduction experiment, but whatever it is, are you sure it is worth it?
It seems like all those resources could be better utilized on finding this vehicle's eventual replacement.
At >200K miles, I am frankly surprised this noise has only just started. And given the age of the vehicle, I would try to avoid doing anything major to it, and just let it tick its little heart out for the rest of the time I drove the vehicle. Something else on the car will break before the valve train does, and that other thing will cause the car to finally go belly up (whenever that is) and the condition of the rocker assemblies likely won't matter one way or another at that point.
Look, it is your car, and I don't want to dissuade you from working on it if you truly want/need to. I am only trying to make sure you realize the law of diminishing returns applies when working on a 230K mile vehicle. If you can fix it on the cheap, great! But don't just throw good money after bad trying to fix it if nothing seems to work. At some point, putting more money, time, effort into fixing a harmless sound will stop making any sense and become detrimental to other areas of your life (financial, social, whatever). That would be my main concern.
And now that I've stated my position on the matter, I will shut my yap and let you do whatever it is you want to do.
Good luck with it, whatever it is you decide to subject it to
Nuke
thx again for the time for your opinions. I will keep records and post. BTW where is a link I can request someone to change an incorrect mileage I put in the subject of my post.I stated 130K but is actually 230K
Alright, that piece of into paints all this in a whole 'nother light...I mean, I don't know how much time and effort and money you plan on throwing at this valve train noise reduction experiment, but whatever it is, are you sure it is worth it?
It seems like all those resources could be better utilized on finding this vehicle's eventual replacement.
At >200K miles, I am frankly surprised this noise has only just started. And given the age of the vehicle, I would try to avoid doing anything major to it, and just let it tick its little heart out for the rest of the time I drove the vehicle. Something else on the car will break before the valve train does, and that other thing will cause the car to finally go belly up (whenever that is) and the condition of the rocker assemblies likely won't matter one way or another at that point.
Look, it is your car, and I don't want to dissuade you from working on it if you truly want/need to. I am only trying to make sure you realize the law of diminishing returns applies when working on a 230K mile vehicle. If you can fix it on the cheap, great! But don't just throw good money after bad trying to fix it if nothing seems to work. At some point, putting more money, time, effort into fixing a harmless sound will stop making any sense and become detrimental to other areas of your life (financial, social, whatever). That would be my main concern.
And now that I've stated my position on the matter, I will shut my yap and let you do whatever it is you want to do.
Good luck with it, whatever it is you decide to subject it to
Nuke
Originally Posted By: The_Nuke
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
thx again for the time for your opinions. I will keep records and post. BTW where is a link I can request someone to change an incorrect mileage I put in the subject of my post.I stated 130K but is actually 230K
Alright, that piece of into paints all this in a whole 'nother light...I mean, I don't know how much time and effort and money you plan on throwing at this valve train noise reduction experiment, but whatever it is, are you sure it is worth it?
It seems like all those resources could be better utilized on finding this vehicle's eventual replacement.
At >200K miles, I am frankly surprised this noise has only just started. And given the age of the vehicle, I would try to avoid doing anything major to it, and just let it tick its little heart out for the rest of the time I drove the vehicle. Something else on the car will break before the valve train does, and that other thing will cause the car to finally go belly up (whenever that is) and the condition of the rocker assemblies likely won't matter one way or another at that point.
Look, it is your car, and I don't want to dissuade you from working on it if you truly want/need to. I am only trying to make sure you realize the law of diminishing returns applies when working on a 230K mile vehicle. If you can fix it on the cheap, great! But don't just throw good money after bad trying to fix it if nothing seems to work. At some point, putting more money, time, effort into fixing a harmless sound will stop making any sense and become detrimental to other areas of your life (financial, social, whatever). That would be my main concern.
And now that I've stated my position on the matter, I will shut my yap and let you do whatever it is you want to do.
Good luck with it, whatever it is you decide to subject it to
Nuke
I concur.
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
thx again for the time for your opinions. I will keep records and post. BTW where is a link I can request someone to change an incorrect mileage I put in the subject of my post.I stated 130K but is actually 230K
Alright, that piece of into paints all this in a whole 'nother light...I mean, I don't know how much time and effort and money you plan on throwing at this valve train noise reduction experiment, but whatever it is, are you sure it is worth it?
It seems like all those resources could be better utilized on finding this vehicle's eventual replacement.
At >200K miles, I am frankly surprised this noise has only just started. And given the age of the vehicle, I would try to avoid doing anything major to it, and just let it tick its little heart out for the rest of the time I drove the vehicle. Something else on the car will break before the valve train does, and that other thing will cause the car to finally go belly up (whenever that is) and the condition of the rocker assemblies likely won't matter one way or another at that point.
Look, it is your car, and I don't want to dissuade you from working on it if you truly want/need to. I am only trying to make sure you realize the law of diminishing returns applies when working on a 230K mile vehicle. If you can fix it on the cheap, great! But don't just throw good money after bad trying to fix it if nothing seems to work. At some point, putting more money, time, effort into fixing a harmless sound will stop making any sense and become detrimental to other areas of your life (financial, social, whatever). That would be my main concern.
And now that I've stated my position on the matter, I will shut my yap and let you do whatever it is you want to do.
Good luck with it, whatever it is you decide to subject it to
Nuke
I concur.
mitsu hasnt any & isnt making an engine replacement/ About a half dozen national remanufactureres knew of no one either . Now that was almost a year ago. I did find a national wrecking yard that sold engines from wrecks, Some are low mileage for about 2K and most are high mi going for as low as $800. I ran the numbers at the time with my mechanic and others and all quoted about 4K for R&R plus the 2K purchase makes it 6k minimum.
Last edited:
Im in agreement with that logic.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Since it's temperature related, maybe your noisy lifter is worn just enough that when the metal contracts in the cold it is able to rattle around.
Maybe you have an oil pathway that's partially clogged.
Try a flush. This is an interesting one.
Could be...and then maybe its simply the varnish has built up just enough that noise at this level Ive described can be managed with an engine flush of some type.
What does anyone think? Anyone...Agree/disagree? and why.
Since it's temperature related, maybe your noisy lifter is worn just enough that when the metal contracts in the cold it is able to rattle around.
Maybe you have an oil pathway that's partially clogged.
Try a flush. This is an interesting one.
Could be...and then maybe its simply the varnish has built up just enough that noise at this level Ive described can be managed with an engine flush of some type.
What does anyone think? Anyone...Agree/disagree? and why.
I read...somewhere ( well one can read just about anything anywhere) Just the same,I did read someone claimed M1 syn contributed to a gold varnish that was detectable early on("early on not defined")
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: PalmSpringsSCal
I read...somewhere ( well one can read just about anything anywhere) Just the same,I did read someone claimed M1 syn contributed to a gold varnish that was detectable early on("early on not defined")
I recall that being attributed to Castrol products, not Mobil.
I read...somewhere ( well one can read just about anything anywhere) Just the same,I did read someone claimed M1 syn contributed to a gold varnish that was detectable early on("early on not defined")
I recall that being attributed to Castrol products, not Mobil.
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Since it's temperature related, maybe your noisy lifter is worn just enough that when the metal contracts in the cold it is able to rattle around.
Maybe you have an oil pathway that's partially clogged.
Try a flush. This is an interesting one.
I have been researching,a bit,the pro and cons of "flushes". I would usually post it with this particular thread,but it seems to me it would get wider attention from more members if I started it as a new topic. I need to do it yesterday due to smog testing /expiration timeframes expiring here in kalifonistan so I think Ill get a quicker and larger audience under (Engine flush.Reason not to use the full bottle as directed) title than my "noisy lifter title" So look for it to be under that alternative title .
Since it's temperature related, maybe your noisy lifter is worn just enough that when the metal contracts in the cold it is able to rattle around.
Maybe you have an oil pathway that's partially clogged.
Try a flush. This is an interesting one.
I have been researching,a bit,the pro and cons of "flushes". I would usually post it with this particular thread,but it seems to me it would get wider attention from more members if I started it as a new topic. I need to do it yesterday due to smog testing /expiration timeframes expiring here in kalifonistan so I think Ill get a quicker and larger audience under (Engine flush.Reason not to use the full bottle as directed) title than my "noisy lifter title" So look for it to be under that alternative title .
My Santa Fe used to sound like a diesel in the winter for the first 20 minutes or so and it made it 300K Miles (535,000km)
thanks for input
but you wouldn't be aware you were accelerating the valvetrain's wear by using that very same oil due to its propensity to disappear when left to sit.
Thanks for the good answers
Thanks for the good answers
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I recall that being attributed to Castrol products, not Mobil.
Yes, known as "Castrol orange" as I recall.
I recall that being attributed to Castrol products, not Mobil.
Yes, known as "Castrol orange" as I recall.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I recall that being attributed to Castrol products, not Mobil.
Yes, known as "Castrol orange" as I recall.
Intelligent orange molecules?
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I recall that being attributed to Castrol products, not Mobil.
Yes, known as "Castrol orange" as I recall.
Intelligent orange molecules?
- Status