Let’s change the “thick vs. thin” up a little: Mercon LV vs ULV!

[SubieRubyRoo]

So we all know the engine oil side of this has been beaten to death thousands of times. This is only about the Mercon LV/ULV, and using LV in the stead of ULV:

I “assume” additive formulations are likely extremely similar other than viscosity, can anyone confirm? I had some DM chats with some well-respected members and it seems the consensus is the ULV is so thin to help mileage on startup, but also that the Mercon ULV (10R80 in my case) is a pretty darn good fluid in its own right; very shear stable and holds its viscosity well.

Problem is, I had a brain fart and bought a couple gallons of LV equivalent instead of ULV. So… other than a small hit to mileage, and likely having to clear & retrain the shift logic, is there any downside to running a PAO-based LV in a 10R80 that calls for ULV?

100*C viscosity is like 6.3 on the LV I have, and the ULV is like 4.6, which means there’s about a 25% difference in operating viscosity. Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Both Infineum and Lubrizol have additive packages that a blender can use to blend anything from a TES-295/Dexron III "compatible fluid" (viscosity wise), to Dexron HP/Dexron VI/KIA/Hyundai SP 4 & RR to ULV ATF. The DI package will be identical. The only things that can be, and are adjusted, are the base oils, VII, and co-bases.

 

[dnewton3]

Don't forget the friction modifiers; a VERY important part of any ATF. And these can vary significantly from spec to spec.

Mola should chime in here.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Don't forget the friction modifiers;

I didn't. They're part of the additive package. Smart blenders like HPL use the ATF add pack as is, and only enhance the base oil and co-base. When it comes to ATF, top-treating the additive package is asking for trouble because it can change the frictional characteristics of the fluid.

I learned most of this from @MolaKule and Dave.

 

[The Critic]

I didn't. They're part of the additive package. Smart blenders like HPL use the ATF add pack as is, and only enhance the base oil and co-base. When it comes to ATF, top-treating the additive package is asking for trouble because it can change the frictional characteristics of the fluid.

I learned most of this from @MolaKule and Dave.

Deviating from the specified base oil blends may also affect the FM properties. Follow up testing may be required to validate the impact of those changes, if any.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Deviating from the specified base oil blends may also affect the FM properties. Follow up testing may be required to validate the impact of those changes, if any.

All you need to do is add certain esters to ATF and you're done.

 

[ctechbob]

@meep has experience in his 10R80 with a thicker fluid, it was not great.

Viscosity seems to be important in the 10 speed units as it has a pretty big effect on their shift timings. There are 6 clutches and solenoids in there that need to do a fair bit of gymnastics to pull off smooth shifts and it looks like thicker fluids slow that down enough to make things clunky. (Mine is a little clunky when it is cold out, but smooths out greatly when its at operating temp. This tells me enough about higher viscosities and shift timings that I don't want to mess with it)

Also, this being BITOG, I assume everyone is going to throw the 150k OCI right out the window. I do 10k D&F's and will stick with that as long as I own the truck.

I'm sticking with ULV's in my 10R80. Everything with mine is working as it should and I see no reason to mess with that. Even towing as heavy as I do my temps are well under control and the trans does what it is supposed to. I've so far used the Valvoline product, but it has shot up in price and I picked up a stash of Mercon. After that I'll probably go with HPL and stretch the OCI out some.

I am adding a PPE pan though in the next couple months, just for the drain plug, since sucking the fluid out is a bit of a pain.

 

[meep]

^^^ this guy. Well said.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Before we engage in a hearty round of self-congratulations, @ctechbob, may I inquire about the "thicker" fluid you employed in your process?

 

[PiperOne]

I do know the 10 speed units in GM HD's don't play well with a ~6Cst (LV) fluid, they need the ~4 Cst ULV. Shift timing and slip get messed up by 'saving' the trans with a 'thick' fluid. In the GM case, the coolers are now HUGE and temps are very tightly controlled, incl an automatic warm up function at cold start (in addition to the user selectable elevated idle warmup sequence). So while thinner, the oil just doesn't get hot. My 22 GM dually hasn't been over 155F yet, even loaded.

 

[ctechbob]

Before we engage in a hearty round of self-congratulations, @ctechbob, may I inquire about the "thicker" fluid you employed in your process?

I didn't. (And won't)

It shifts worse when cold and the fluid is thicker. It shifts great when its warmed up. That combined with @meep experience with the thicker Amsoil in his 10R80 told me all I needed to know about thicker fluids in a 10R80.

Others are welcome to do whatever they wish. I'm simply adding two and two together.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I didn't.

It shifts worse when cold and the fluid is thicker. It shifts great when its warmed up. That combined with @meeps experience with the thicker Amsoil in his 10R80 told me all I needed to know about thicker fluids in a 10R80.

Others are welcome to do whatever they wish. I'm simply adding two and two together.

You might have drawn some conclusions prematurely. Let me shed light on the actual intricacies of this matter. Friction modification and Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) formulation are indeed the significant aspects of this discourse. Take, for example, my experience with AMSOIL ATL (blue cap). I have utilized it in multiple Hyundai transmissions and a ZF 8 Speed. Yet, the only transmission that functioned effectively was the 6-speed in my now sold 2018 Santa Fe Sport. The seemingly satisfactory operation was solely due to the modest 2.4L NA engine struggling to move a hefty SUV. Its torque was insufficient to induce a shift jerk. However, my other two vehicles, boasting 300 HP and 400 HP engines respectively, performed poorly with AMSOIL. Each shift was notably firm and clunky.

In contrast, when I replaced the fluid in the 2017 Santa Fe with a 300 HP engine, and in the 2016 RAM 1500 with Mobil 1 LV ATF HP, a fluid boasting the advanced Infineum additive package, the results were dramatic. HPL employs a comparable additive, yet their formulation integrates pricier base oils and co-bases. Consequently, the shifts were smooth and defined, devoid of any hesitation or slippage. No clunkiness or jerking in sight. AMSOIL, with its Lubrizol-supplied ATF recipe, simply didn't measure up.

Once upon a time, advocating for lower viscosities was logical. However, today's focus seems to have shifted toward a marginal fuel economy increase, aiming to achieve a minuscule quarter of a percent per truck, then multiplying this across their annual sales in the millions. This strategy undoubtedly boosts their profits, but often at the expense of the owner's vehicle reliability. The switch from LV to ULV primarily benefits the manufacturer's bottom line, neglecting the consumer's best interests.

In sum, the crux of this matter is the friction modification chemistry, overshadowing the viscosity aspect. HPL indeed manufactures some of the finest and most compatible ATF in the industry, even offering an ULV version known as "ATF Teal." However, rest assured, running ATF Green or Green CC in a 10-speed transmission should pose no issues.

 

[ctechbob]

By all means. Go for it then in your own box and report back.

I won't be.

I still stand by the thought that higher viscosity adversely affects shift timings on the 10-speed boxes, which would have little to do with the FM chemistry.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

By all means. Go for it then in your own box and report back.

I won't be.

I still stand by the thought that higher viscosity adversely affects shift timings on the 10-speed boxes, which would have little to do with the FM chemistry.

Let me stress this point once more: the crucial factor isn't viscosity. It's a common misconception. To comprehend this, one must pose the question: how long does it take for the Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) in a transmission to attain its full operating temperature? It's longer than you might think, and it underscores why discerning a distinction in shift quality between your driveway and your destination, some 20 to 30 miles away, is indeed challenging.

Let's talk about HPL fluids. They all utilize the same friction modification chemistry. This consistency allows you the flexibility to employ any of them in your 10-speed transmission, offering a myriad of choices without compromising performance. There may be an exception, though - if you opt for ATF Blue, with its Group III base oil, and reside in a particularly cold climate, you might notice a difference.

But don't let this worry you. My suggestion for a 10-speed Ford transmission? Use ATF Green CC. The ULV, like the ATF Blue, is also Group III, but let that not dissuade you. You'll find no shortage of ATF Green CC in my garage; I just haven't gotten around to substituting the fluids in our transmissions with it.

The viscosity variance among these fluids is negligible to the point of being non-existent. It won't generate shifting problems. Now, residing in a frigid climate might be an exception, but even then, ATF Green CC, with its PAO foundation, is more than capable of meeting the challenge. And in case you're wondering, all of HPL's CC fluids are PAO-based.

Remember, these are not mere conjectures; they're insights formulated after years of experience. So, take it from me and choose wisely when it comes to your transmission fluids. It makes all the difference.

 

[ctechbob]

Remember, these are not mere conjectures; they're insights formulated after years of experience. So, take it from me and choose wisely when it comes to your transmission fluids. It makes all the difference.

Sorry bud, you have your opinion and I have mine. I know HPL makes some good oils, but I'm not on board with the higher viscosities in the 10-speed boxes. There's no longer post you can type that is going to convince me of that at this point.

Ford prioritizes trans warmup in these things for a reason. Two actually. Efficiency and to put the fluid in its optimum operating range.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Sorry bud, you have your opinion and I have mine. I know HPL makes some good oils, but I'm not on board with the higher viscosities in the 10-speed boxes. There's no longer post you can type that is going to convince me of that at this point.

Ford prioritizes trans warmup in these things for a reason. Two actually. Efficiency and to put the fluid in its optimum operating range.

At the very least, if you want to experience better shifts, give the ATF Teal a try. Here is the full PDS document: https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/ATF-PDS.pdf

 

[ctechbob]

At the very least, if you want to experience better shifts, give the ATF Teal a try. Here is the full PDS document: https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/ATF-PDS.pdf

I already said above that I was probably going to try it once I run through the stash of my other fluids. And extend out the OCI from my 10k D&F. I'm not after better shifts BTW, my box shifts smooth as butter now.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I already said above that I was probably going to try it once I run through the stash of my other fluids. And extend out the OCI from my 10k D&F. I'm not after better shifts BTW, my box shifts smooth as butter now.

Why do you use Lubegard Platinum?

 

[PiperOne]

I've seen 4 GM HD 10 speed failures from fleet users who continued to use Dex6 because they didn't want to buy the expensive GM ULV fluid. Their oil supplier said the 'universal'/Dex6 they had been using in all their previous GM stuff (with excellent results btw) would be "fine". It wasn't. The transmissions shifted in ways they weren't designed or programmed to do. The difference in viscosities is not 'negligible', in terms of transmission operation in a unit designed for a specific fluid.

HPL makes 3 (excellent) different fluid viscosities, Teal (ULV), Green (LV), and Blue (traditional DexIII like visc). If viscosity didn't matter since it's 'negligible', why do they bother making 3 diff viscosity spec fluids?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I've seen 4 GM HD 10 speed failures from fleet users who continued to use Dex6 because they didn't want to buy the expensive GM ULV fluid. Their oil supplier said the 'universal'/Dex6 they had been using in all their previous GM stuff (with excellent results btw) would be "fine". It wasn't. The transmissions shifted in ways they weren't designed or programmed to do. The difference in viscosities is not 'negligible', in terms of transmission operation in a unit designed for a specific fluid.

HPL makes 3 (excellent) different fluid viscosities, Teal (ULV), Green (LV), and Blue (traditional DexIII like visc). If viscosity didn't matter since it's 'negligible', why do they bother making 3 diff viscosity spec fluids?

ATF, like any lubricant, changes its viscosity based on the surrounding temperature. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. What I mean is that you'd really notice the difference if you tried using a thicker fluid in a very cold environment.

Those transmission failures you were talking about? They happened because the Dexron VI fluid wasn't properly suited for a newer step shift automatic transmission. It wasn't because the Dexron VI was a bit thicker. Honestly, if someone with a bit of practical thinking was working with that fleet, they would've chosen the Dexron HP blue label. That fluid is pretty great and it shares the same friction modification chemistry with the ULV.

So, when you're dealing with ATF, you need the right detergent inhibitor package. This supports the friction material in the clutches and makes sure they engage smoothly. Viscosity matters, sure, but maybe not in the way you're thinking.

Perfect. I’ll just add some Lubegard to my favorite jobber full synthetic multi-vehicle ATF and I’ll have a super-premium product.

Are you off your meds today?

That was my shot at a joke, kind of a quiet one. Maybe it didn't really land with you, which is okay. But hey, it doesn't really help to poke fun at me if you didn't quite get the joke. We all have different things we're good at, right?

Some esters change the frictional characteristics of the ATF.

One of these "miracle products" is Lubegard Platinum, and it changes the frictional properties of the ATF in unforeseen ways. Look up @MolaKule's posts on the subjects.

I can't believe I have to explain this, but here we are.