Japanese vs American cars
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Interesting comments on the time period in which you got into cars - for me it was the 80s whe German was king, Italian was unaffordable impractical and exotic, American was horrible specific output and Japanese was mostly very reliable but also starting to get attractive.
Originally Posted By: skip029
I wanted to get a feel for how people felt on this forum today. Does that mindset or theory or FACT, still prove correct today?
Fact with an "but"...
Some Asian makes are still the top-dog. Others have slipped. Overall, I would say that asian brands are the best but that does not meant that all are better than other European/American brands. That being said, a lot of Asian brands are US made/assembled and sometimes only for the US market. US brands maybe Korean/European/Mexican built. Honda makes the Fit in Mexico...
That being said, the best, reliable companies are the "conservative" engineering companies. Those tend to be asian, but Buick is a prime example of a conservative American brand that is well sorted. Companies making a lot of engineering changes (Honda, Ford, FCA) are going to have more issues. However existing product will be ok.
Toyota, Mazda, and Subaru (as a whole but not perfect) are still the high-quality brands. More-over, they are consistent. If there is a problem, it will be a known, consist ant problem that once you fix it, it is good to go without worries. You do not get wild stories like my fleet Cevy Impalas, where one can't keep a transmission in it, one eats power-steering pumps and the other has 100K miles without a replacement to any non-wearing part. You do not get the wild inconsistencies.
Honda has fallen off the cliff IMO and I would consider a Hyundai/Kia to be producing a better and more reliable product. Nissan is about as bad as anyone. Fiat and Chrysler are a dumpster fire. Still, FCA can make some decent cars but exect that you are taking a gamble. It could be fine or it could be a cluster... which is the VW method. I would take specific US models over specific asian models.
As for the GF's lease... keep her in a newer car. I had no problem bumming around in a high mileage Subaru. I know how to fix things and what to do. My wife freaks out over the tire-pressure monitor. She will not like something that becomes a maintenance item (even if it is PM). So for piece of mind, (and unless she wrenches), there is a reason she probally took a lease over a used car.
Finally, with 200K plus vehicles, it is less about the brand on the hood, but more about how it was maintained, repaired, and engineered.
Honda elements are decent vehicles but they command to much for their mileage. Yes, you are crazy if you are spending more than a couple/few grand on a 233K car. My co-worker is a Element fanatic and they are willing to spend 15K on something with nearly 100K miles because their 200K element was still going to fetch them 8K at traded-in.
I wanted to get a feel for how people felt on this forum today. Does that mindset or theory or FACT, still prove correct today?
Fact with an "but"...
Some Asian makes are still the top-dog. Others have slipped. Overall, I would say that asian brands are the best but that does not meant that all are better than other European/American brands. That being said, a lot of Asian brands are US made/assembled and sometimes only for the US market. US brands maybe Korean/European/Mexican built. Honda makes the Fit in Mexico...
That being said, the best, reliable companies are the "conservative" engineering companies. Those tend to be asian, but Buick is a prime example of a conservative American brand that is well sorted. Companies making a lot of engineering changes (Honda, Ford, FCA) are going to have more issues. However existing product will be ok.
Toyota, Mazda, and Subaru (as a whole but not perfect) are still the high-quality brands. More-over, they are consistent. If there is a problem, it will be a known, consist ant problem that once you fix it, it is good to go without worries. You do not get wild stories like my fleet Cevy Impalas, where one can't keep a transmission in it, one eats power-steering pumps and the other has 100K miles without a replacement to any non-wearing part. You do not get the wild inconsistencies.
Honda has fallen off the cliff IMO and I would consider a Hyundai/Kia to be producing a better and more reliable product. Nissan is about as bad as anyone. Fiat and Chrysler are a dumpster fire. Still, FCA can make some decent cars but exect that you are taking a gamble. It could be fine or it could be a cluster... which is the VW method. I would take specific US models over specific asian models.
As for the GF's lease... keep her in a newer car. I had no problem bumming around in a high mileage Subaru. I know how to fix things and what to do. My wife freaks out over the tire-pressure monitor. She will not like something that becomes a maintenance item (even if it is PM). So for piece of mind, (and unless she wrenches), there is a reason she probally took a lease over a used car.
Finally, with 200K plus vehicles, it is less about the brand on the hood, but more about how it was maintained, repaired, and engineered.
Honda elements are decent vehicles but they command to much for their mileage. Yes, you are crazy if you are spending more than a couple/few grand on a 233K car. My co-worker is a Element fanatic and they are willing to spend 15K on something with nearly 100K miles because their 200K element was still going to fetch them 8K at traded-in.
If your a competent backyard mechanic, it's hard to beat owning an older GM vehicle in terms of vehicle price and cost to repair and maintain it.
Fifty years ago I traded a pos Dodge Dart I special ordered for a 67 Toyota Corona. That Dart made in Hamtramck looked liked it has been assembled by monkeys. The Corona on the other hand was very well built and all the body components were properly aligned. The build quality was excellent. I never purchased another vehicle from the Big 3. No regrets and only one problem with the Toyotas and Hondas I have owned. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Tell that to taxi drivers and law enforcement - what vehicles ?
I see a wide range of vehicles used as taxis. Most are Camrys.
Law enforcement buys cop car packages most by American big 3. There is a wide range of them.
Tell that to taxi drivers and law enforcement - what vehicles ?
I see a wide range of vehicles used as taxis. Most are Camrys.
Law enforcement buys cop car packages most by American big 3. There is a wide range of them.
Originally Posted By: redhat
I don't know... miles don't scare me. Mom's Tahoe is close to 200k and is sweet as ever.
I concur.
In my experience, the aging process is far more damaging that miles. After all, cars are designed to be DRIVEN.
200k mile 2010 model year car vs a 50k 1995 model year car? I'll put my money on the 2010.
As far as the brand/country of origin thing, I find it hard to be loyal to any brand at all. They're machines designed by humans, they all have their problems. They all have their pros and cons.
I simply buy the cars I like to drive. For example, I'm a fan of the old big cruisers. When I decided it was time to shop for a car, I looked for said cruisers. By that time, Ford was the only one left with a current offering.
So, I bought the Ford because it was the car I liked to drive. I didn't base my decision based on the badge or obscure reliability expectations.
That said, I've owned many different brands of cars. I've enjoyed them all.
The auto industry is more competitive then ever. As a result, there's a lot of cool stuff available to the consumer. You're only hurting yourself by being blind to cars you might like simply due to irrelevant characteristics like the brand name.
Potentially settling for less because of the badge? Silly way of thinking.
I don't know... miles don't scare me. Mom's Tahoe is close to 200k and is sweet as ever.
I concur.
In my experience, the aging process is far more damaging that miles. After all, cars are designed to be DRIVEN.
200k mile 2010 model year car vs a 50k 1995 model year car? I'll put my money on the 2010.
As far as the brand/country of origin thing, I find it hard to be loyal to any brand at all. They're machines designed by humans, they all have their problems. They all have their pros and cons.
I simply buy the cars I like to drive. For example, I'm a fan of the old big cruisers. When I decided it was time to shop for a car, I looked for said cruisers. By that time, Ford was the only one left with a current offering.
So, I bought the Ford because it was the car I liked to drive. I didn't base my decision based on the badge or obscure reliability expectations.
That said, I've owned many different brands of cars. I've enjoyed them all.
The auto industry is more competitive then ever. As a result, there's a lot of cool stuff available to the consumer. You're only hurting yourself by being blind to cars you might like simply due to irrelevant characteristics like the brand name.
Potentially settling for less because of the badge? Silly way of thinking.
Originally Posted By: Olas
The history of the individual car is so variable that the country of origin is practically irrelevant. Look at service history and vehicle condition, and pay accordingly.
Exactly.
I grew up in a household that valued European cars (Volvo in particular). This was mostly since we were immigrants to Canada and Euro brands were viewed superior to American cars (back then).
As a result most of the vehicles....ALL of the vehicles we had were Volvo wagons. My dad swore on their reliability, ease of maintenance and crashworthiness.
Sometime in the late 90's after all the kids moved out/up he got himself into an Olds Aurora. He loves that thing to death! It's mileage is well over 250k miles yet he keeps on motoring. Most of the Volvo's we had would have rusted out or been totally thrashed by 150k miles.
Personally I also had a preference towards Euro cars, but given their complexity (VW/AUDI trans fluid changes, BMW's quirks, etc) I've given up on them for a daily driver. These days you can get just as much reliability and FAR cheaper ownership costs from an "American" car.
The history of the individual car is so variable that the country of origin is practically irrelevant. Look at service history and vehicle condition, and pay accordingly.
Exactly.
I grew up in a household that valued European cars (Volvo in particular). This was mostly since we were immigrants to Canada and Euro brands were viewed superior to American cars (back then).
As a result most of the vehicles....ALL of the vehicles we had were Volvo wagons. My dad swore on their reliability, ease of maintenance and crashworthiness.
Sometime in the late 90's after all the kids moved out/up he got himself into an Olds Aurora. He loves that thing to death! It's mileage is well over 250k miles yet he keeps on motoring. Most of the Volvo's we had would have rusted out or been totally thrashed by 150k miles.
Personally I also had a preference towards Euro cars, but given their complexity (VW/AUDI trans fluid changes, BMW's quirks, etc) I've given up on them for a daily driver. These days you can get just as much reliability and FAR cheaper ownership costs from an "American" car.
Originally Posted By: tomcat27
make sure that the GF gets what appeals to her. I'm now driving my wife's old car because apparently she did not like it and never drive it. of course, she selected it but I knew she really wanted a CRV. foolish me....
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
As for the GF's lease... keep her in a newer car. I had no problem bumming around in a high mileage Subaru. I know how to fix things and what to do. My wife freaks out over the tire-pressure monitor. She will not like something that becomes a maintenance item (even if it is PM). So for piece of mind, (and unless she wrenches), there is a reason she probally took a lease over a used car.
Great replies, thank you all. I think replies by tomcat and futuredoc probably will have more weight than any prejudices or biases in the end LOL. I will broaden my horizons for my search, as I don't particularly have a brand in mind at the moment but just curious about this topic. I always wondered why someone hasn't made a brand that will piece together what you want in a car yet. I want the Toyota Supra engine with Subaru's AWD in a Ford Pinto body and leather interior of an Escalade please!
make sure that the GF gets what appeals to her. I'm now driving my wife's old car because apparently she did not like it and never drive it. of course, she selected it but I knew she really wanted a CRV. foolish me....
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
As for the GF's lease... keep her in a newer car. I had no problem bumming around in a high mileage Subaru. I know how to fix things and what to do. My wife freaks out over the tire-pressure monitor. She will not like something that becomes a maintenance item (even if it is PM). So for piece of mind, (and unless she wrenches), there is a reason she probally took a lease over a used car.
Great replies, thank you all. I think replies by tomcat and futuredoc probably will have more weight than any prejudices or biases in the end LOL. I will broaden my horizons for my search, as I don't particularly have a brand in mind at the moment but just curious about this topic. I always wondered why someone hasn't made a brand that will piece together what you want in a car yet. I want the Toyota Supra engine with Subaru's AWD in a Ford Pinto body and leather interior of an Escalade please!
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I looked at a lot of different vehicles before landing on the Sentra that I bought. I wanted to like the modern Elantra after driving an older one for 90,000 mostly trouble-free miles, but didn't. The Cruze was too expensive in my area for what it was and the Toyota dealer frustrated me out of buying a Corolla. My Sentra has almost 30,000 miles on it and I'm still pleased with it, but I am aware that it has known major weaknesses *cough*CVT*cough*.
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Tell that to taxi drivers and law enforcement - what vehicles ?
+1 Thats what I drive!!
Tell that to taxi drivers and law enforcement - what vehicles ?
+1 Thats what I drive!!
my guess is that GM has gotten better, but not yet equal.
Neighbor bought one of the Buicks several years ago, 2 $1000 repairs, several motor mount fails and some sort of electrical/fuel tank/fuel pump failure that required replacement of an electrical "module " in or near the fuel tank that were expensive to diagnose and to fix..
Both were pattern failures present on other Buicks I was told .
Neighbor bought one of the Buicks several years ago, 2 $1000 repairs, several motor mount fails and some sort of electrical/fuel tank/fuel pump failure that required replacement of an electrical "module " in or near the fuel tank that were expensive to diagnose and to fix..
Both were pattern failures present on other Buicks I was told .
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Glad he has a good dealership - I was disappointed at my last time buying out of town (best price) - long hours of pain dealing with these guys (huge dealership) ...
All this thread does is illuminate prejudices. All any of us can do is give examples which mean little in high volume production.
My family owned a few Toyotas and Datsuns in the 70's. Seemed to me the early 70's were fantastic cars and they went south late in that decade. My Dad's 78 Corolla was a complete POS from day 1, my Mom's 280Z was full of small problems. I had 510 Datsuns and a 1970 240z from earlier in that decade that would not even rust if unpainted. Couldn't beat them with a stick.
See what I mean?
My family owned a few Toyotas and Datsuns in the 70's. Seemed to me the early 70's were fantastic cars and they went south late in that decade. My Dad's 78 Corolla was a complete POS from day 1, my Mom's 280Z was full of small problems. I had 510 Datsuns and a 1970 240z from earlier in that decade that would not even rust if unpainted. Couldn't beat them with a stick.
See what I mean?
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: skip029
...when we looked at a 2003 Honda Element didn't want to buy it due to it having 223K miles and his exact words were "HOLY SH*T, it's got a quarter of a million miles man!" I replied, 'dude, it's a Honda.'
I think it mare to do with how well the vehicle is taken care of anymore. I know a divorced single mom with a 2003 Ford Focus with 227,000 miles on it.
Automobiles are becoming a "commodity", like any other item traded on a global scale. Almost anything made is good for 150,000 EASILY (except I still hate expensive European cars). I plan on driving my 2008 F150 to 300,000 miles.
I think it's important to research a particular car line as each vehicle and each year may have their own individual quirks. I bought a Mercedes E-350 a couple years ago for under 19k, had under 50k in mileage and was pretty loaded. List was probably in the 65k range but with discounts, who knows what the original owner paid. Anyway, it's been fun to drive and somewhat reliable, no crazy 5k repair bills, probably in a little over 2 years I've spent a little over 1k in repairs/maintenance. Anyway when doing research on it, I had originally wanted one that was a couple years old and even cheaper, they were in the 10k range for a 2006, but found out that they had balance shaft problems with the engine which would be several thousand to fix, the later years didn't have that problem and that's what I ended up with. Sometimes the best deals are in the luxury car market, they're heavily depreciated vs a Toyota/Honda that tends to be overpriced for what you get. Try getting a pano roof, bixenons, keyless go etc. for that kind of money.
Originally Posted By: skip029
...when we looked at a 2003 Honda Element didn't want to buy it due to it having 223K miles and his exact words were "HOLY SH*T, it's got a quarter of a million miles man!" I replied, 'dude, it's a Honda.'
I think it mare to do with how well the vehicle is taken care of anymore. I know a divorced single mom with a 2003 Ford Focus with 227,000 miles on it.
Automobiles are becoming a "commodity", like any other item traded on a global scale. Almost anything made is good for 150,000 EASILY (except I still hate expensive European cars). I plan on driving my 2008 F150 to 300,000 miles.
I think it's important to research a particular car line as each vehicle and each year may have their own individual quirks. I bought a Mercedes E-350 a couple years ago for under 19k, had under 50k in mileage and was pretty loaded. List was probably in the 65k range but with discounts, who knows what the original owner paid. Anyway, it's been fun to drive and somewhat reliable, no crazy 5k repair bills, probably in a little over 2 years I've spent a little over 1k in repairs/maintenance. Anyway when doing research on it, I had originally wanted one that was a couple years old and even cheaper, they were in the 10k range for a 2006, but found out that they had balance shaft problems with the engine which would be several thousand to fix, the later years didn't have that problem and that's what I ended up with. Sometimes the best deals are in the luxury car market, they're heavily depreciated vs a Toyota/Honda that tends to be overpriced for what you get. Try getting a pano roof, bixenons, keyless go etc. for that kind of money.
At that mileage the individual car and the maintenance it has received are more relevant that the country of origin. The X3 has 192k on it and it is tight and rattle free. Can't see a reason for selling it as I paid it off 10 years ago..
That said, my opinion is that you should buy what YOU like and to h**l with what anyone else thinks. In my case I like RWD cars with adequate power, and if I had to replace the 2er with something other than a BMW I'd almost certainly wind up with a GT350 or a Challenger SRT. SUVs? I love my Wrangler- but I'd replace it with a Defender 90 in a heartbeat if they didn't cost crazy money.
Again, to each his own...
That said, my opinion is that you should buy what YOU like and to h**l with what anyone else thinks. In my case I like RWD cars with adequate power, and if I had to replace the 2er with something other than a BMW I'd almost certainly wind up with a GT350 or a Challenger SRT. SUVs? I love my Wrangler- but I'd replace it with a Defender 90 in a heartbeat if they didn't cost crazy money.
Again, to each his own...
This thread is like saying which ISP you prefer. Everyone has had different experiences and will have their own preferences based on their experiences.
Scotty Kilmer is entertaining to watch. The problem is he is stuck in the 1980s. He claims everything Toyota makes will be completely problem free for 300k miles. That isn't the case with ANY newer car. Even the Japanese have cheapened their cars and every car made is more complex now than a few years ago. The guy comparing his 1994 Celica to a new Corolla makes no sense, they are completely different vehicles.
An example is how he praises Toyota trucks. They are reliable, yes, but a quick search reveals lots of people who have had frame problems and Toyota denied any responsibility.
Every manufacturer makes good and bad cars, some more than others.
My family has driven mainly Hondas, and the most recent ones are the only ones that have developed some issues. The Japanese are riding their reputation while cheapening quality, the American vehicles are slowly improving, and the Germans will always be complex luxury.
Certain Japanese cars of the late 1990s and early 2000s were some of the best reliability-wise though. The key with any mechanical thing is simplicity. Less moving things means less points of failure.
An example is how he praises Toyota trucks. They are reliable, yes, but a quick search reveals lots of people who have had frame problems and Toyota denied any responsibility.
Every manufacturer makes good and bad cars, some more than others.
My family has driven mainly Hondas, and the most recent ones are the only ones that have developed some issues. The Japanese are riding their reputation while cheapening quality, the American vehicles are slowly improving, and the Germans will always be complex luxury.
Certain Japanese cars of the late 1990s and early 2000s were some of the best reliability-wise though. The key with any mechanical thing is simplicity. Less moving things means less points of failure.
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Me,I'm Japanese and Japanese only. My take comes from ownership experience. The only time I've ever owned a car that didn't keep breaking down or leave me stranded was when I started buying Japanese. My Mitsubishis and current Nissan are the best cars I've ever owned. My 21 year old Nissan is still tight as a drum,not one single squeak or rattle,and it's been my only car the entire time I've owned it (15 or so years). Paint and interior is still showroom fresh and it's never been garaged. I have one of the last 100% Japanese built Z's (excluding the 96-99 Jspec models).
When your talking 200K + miles, how the vehicle was maintained is far more important than the vehicles make. Having said that when you look at various sources Japanese makes still come out on top in the reliability department. It is true however, that other manufacturers are catching up. IMO GM still isn't doing so hot in the reliability department, they would be near the bottom of my list. The new 1.5 turbo is having some pretty serious teething issues.
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