Japan taking over the motorcycle industry

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A couple of thoughts on this thread. First, the Japanese had a history of producing some great specialized technology even prior to WWII. Read about the development of their airplanes and what our pilots thought of the first Mitsubishi Zero planes they had to fight. The Japanese also had some world-class battleships, submarines, etc. Before that read about swords and steel. In any case, technology all around the world always borrows from available technology, just like I'm sure cave men would examine carefully the stone spear heads of rival tribes.

Second, Japanese motorcycles were just coming into their own in terms of power and design at the same point that for various reasons British and U.S. motorcycles were on the decline in terms of design, engineering, and quality--mirroring our car industry at the time. I suspect there is always a danger when companies dominate a market, like Harley in the USA (or U.S. car companies), to rest on your laurels and keep doing the same-old, same-old. Then instead of competing by making better products there is a huge temptation to boost profits by cutting costs--spending less and less on design, engineering, and quality. Other European motorcycle companies and car companies were also making quality products, but they were very European and generally quirky. BMWs with their cylinder heads sticking out either side weren't exactly rocket ships at the time, and were more for long-distance touring. Ducatis, Moto Guzzis, CZs, Puchs, and such were temperamental beasts with parts available only by air mail.

Plus, remember Harleys back then were still associated with real motorcycle gangs that were pretty nasty, like the Hells Angels. Average people did not dress up like pirates and pretend to be in gangs--it could get you killed to show up at a roadside cafe looking the part. A college kid or a family man wanting a motorcycle but not wanting to be part of an outlaw gang wouldn't want a Harley for the most part--it was asking for trouble.

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The X6 hustler was a most incredible motorcycle.
And it was! A 250cc, six-speed motorcycle that could out-hustle many bigger bikes and most average cars, was cheap enough to purchase by high school kids, and didn't require frequent trips to the shop. It also had Suzuki's two-stroke oil injection system so no mixing of the gas was required--a pain on many 2-strokes at the time.
 
Too much stereotyping here. I bought a Harley because it was union made in America. Many people don't care about whether their neighbor has a job, but I do. I haven't had any issues either and my bike is a 2007. I will say that 2007 got the bigger engine, delphi fuel injection, better cam chain tensioners as an upgrade to the original twin cam design. Another reason I bought one is the dealer network. I can get parts easily and there is always a H-D dealer close. Most people around here are just riders who love bikes. The "wannabe biker" thing just seems to be made up in your minds. I'm not seeing much of that. If someones rides in a correct leather jacket he's a wannabe biker? Doesn't make much sense that if you wear boots, leather jacket, etc. you're a wannabe. Now the brain bucket helmet is another story.
 
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The "wannabe biker" thing just seems to be made up in your minds.

This is OT but I think there is a very high percentage of people that ride bikes for the social aspect, which is fine by me if that's what you want. In any social group there tends to be certain norms and styles, and a lot of bikers have gravitated toward a faux-bike gang look that is mostly about looks and not utility. I think it's the same with the motorcycles they ride--there is a lot of peer pressure to conform, so you see most people riding bikes that are way too big, heavy, awkward, and costly. There's a sportbike crowd that is the same way--long swing arms, no fenders, and huge fat tires ruining the handling. It is all about style and not function.
 
Buy what you like and like what you to ride.Harley, Yamaha etc ride what is fun, every one is different.
 
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Too much stereotyping here. I bought a Harley because it was union made in America. Many people don't care about whether their neighbor has a job, but I do. I haven't had any issues either and my bike is a 2007. I will say that 2007 got the bigger engine, delphi fuel injection, better cam chain tensioners as an upgrade to the original twin cam design. Another reason I bought one is the dealer network. I can get parts easily and there is always a H-D dealer close. Most people around here are just riders who love bikes. The "wannabe biker" thing just seems to be made up in your minds. I'm not seeing much of that. If someones rides in a correct leather jacket he's a wannabe biker? Doesn't make much sense that if you wear boots, leather jacket, etc. you're a wannabe. Now the brain bucket helmet is another story.


You may not be keeping as much money in the U.S. as you think by buying a Harley...they have A LOT of parts on them now days that are made over seas....
 
I recall that as of a few years ago, Harleys have enough imported parts that thy can no longer be sold as "Made in the USA". (Ironically, I recall that Ohio-built Goldwings COULD be!)
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I recall that as of a few years ago, Harleys have enough imported parts that thy can no longer be sold as "Made in the USA". (Ironically, I recall that Ohio-built Goldwings COULD be!)


Sold as "Union Made in the USA"
 
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Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Too much stereotyping here. I bought a Harley because it was union made in America. Many people don't care about whether their neighbor has a job, but I do. I haven't had any issues either and my bike is a 2007. ...


You may not be keeping as much money in the U.S. as you think by buying a Harley...they have A LOT of parts on them now days that are made over seas....


My 14 Road King has had no warranty work done yet. Hate saying it, don't want to jinx myself at 8,500 miles.

May not be keeping as much money in the USA as you think? I buy products on who gives me what I want and value for my hard earned money, Harley gives me this in spades for the bike. I owned two metrics before the HD.
With that said, it's pretty cool to me that a tiny little AMERICAN specialty company like Harley and its workers are getting the profits from my purchase over the HUGE international conglomerates like Yamaha who is 10 times and more the size of harley making everything from musical instruments to boats.
When I purchase Harley I am giving the profits to an American company which helps it compete against HUGE companies 10 times is size. With that said, of course they better be giving me my money's worth, so far, no complaints, in fact bike has been awesome.
We should cheer for them as they still sell 50% or more of ALL motorcycles from all other makers combined over 600cc in the United States of America. I hope they keep up the good work.
 
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Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Too much stereotyping here. I bought a Harley because it was union made in America. Many people don't care about whether their neighbor has a job, but I do. I haven't had any issues either and my bike is a 2007. ...


You may not be keeping as much money in the U.S. as you think by buying a Harley...they have A LOT of parts on them now days that are made over seas....


My 14 Road King has had no warranty work done yet. Hate saying it, don't want to jinx myself at 8,500 miles.

May not be keeping as much money in the USA as you think? I buy products on who gives me what I want and value for my hard earned money, Harley gives me this in spades for the bike. I owned two metrics before the HD.
With that said, it's pretty cool to me that a tiny little AMERICAN specialty company like Harley and its workers are getting the profits from my purchase over the HUGE international conglomerates like Yamaha who is 10 times and more the size of harley making everything from musical instruments to boats.
When I purchase Harley I am giving the profits to an American company which helps it compete against HUGE companies 10 times is size. With that said, of course they better be giving me my money's worth, so far, no complaints, in fact bike has been awesome.
We should cheer for them as they still sell 50% or more of ALL motorcycles from all other makers combined over 600cc in the United States of America. I hope they keep up the good work.


I don't disagree with anything you said except for the value part. Harleys have a huge markup in price just for the name, so I would say many, if not most of the other brands offer a better value...
 
Until you try to sell one, or trade it in. Why would anyone pay top dollar for one, when for about the same cash you could buy a new one, or a new leftover ?. Now lets talk aftermarket support. There isn't a brand of motorcycle made that has more options available for it from the dealers or from the aftermarket sector then Harley does. And if the metric model you have chosen is dropped from production, like so many have been in the last 15 years, even their dealers don't want anything to do with those models. That's why aftermarket suppliers are real slow and cautious in jumping in, coming out with parts they will be stuck with when the metric makers decide there's no money being made so let's kill that model off. Japanese bike go fast out of show room, fast out of style, fast out of owners desire to own them, and fast out of production, and their retail value also drops fast. Yep them metrics are fast.,,,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Until you try to sell one, or trade it in. Why would anyone pay top dollar for one, when for about the same cash you could buy a new one, or a new leftover ?. Now lets talk aftermarket support. There isn't a brand of motorcycle made that has more options available for it from the dealers or from the aftermarket sector then Harley does. And if the metric model you have chosen is dropped from production, like so many have been in the last 15 years, even their dealers don't want anything to do with those models. That's why aftermarket suppliers are real slow and cautious in jumping in, coming out with parts they will be stuck with when the metric makers decide there's no money being made so let's kill that model off. Japanese bike go fast out of show room, fast out of style, fast out of owners desire to own them, and fast out of production, and their retail value also drops fast. Yep them metrics are fast.,,,,



Harleys don't hold their value like they used to...the only ones paying top dollar for them used are the Harley dealerships, and that's only if you're trading it in on a new Harley...sell them outright and you'll lose your butt on them because the market is saturated with them...they do have the best aftermarket and dealer support/network though....
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna




Harleys don't hold their value like they used to...the only ones paying top dollar for them used are the Harley dealerships, and that's only if you're trading it in on a new Harley...sell them outright and you'll lose your butt on them because the market is saturated with them...they do have the best aftermarket and dealer support/network though....


Lets take a metric bike as an example of resale.
Having owned two metrics off the showroom floors I know.
You can pay sticker or close to sticker price $17k for a new Strat (not even sure if they are still available so many large metric cruisers are now dropped from production) then go to another dealer and pay $4000 less then sticker and why resale on metrics are not good as those dealers are competing for the same customers that the poor guy is when trying to sell his one or two year old metric. The buyer can buy new at the same price he wants.

At least Harley dealers stick close to sticker and adds resale value.
Nothing is like it used to be but with HD it is still ok..
Agree on the HD dealers, if you like all kind of bikes from all makers as I do, its a lot of fun going into some of the large HD dealers in my state which we did all the time while I owned metrics.

Top dollar is relative to what someone wants out of a bike. Put an HD next to a metric in the same class, compare the saddlebags, fit, finish, paint, hardware right down to the brake line hoses and they will be superior to the metric. This commands top dollar, much like the Indian Brand and BMW. Take he list price of the Strat S (dropped from production now) 17k compared to 19K for a Road King, then check all the features I mentioned, it wasnt close to the quality feel of the Road king and why the Strats could be bought for a song and dance.

Nothing wrong with that, not at all. I like the Strats, good bikes, but to pay sticker would be crazy there are compromises. You get what you pay for. If fit, finish etc, etc is your thing, HD gives it to you. If you like the looks of the Indian, they do to.

I am leary of Indian, new kid on the block, if things dont work out, Polaris will change models, etc and drop them like a rock. Polaris is a huge company the Victory and Indian products are a tiny part of their business.
Look what Victory did with the Cross Roads. I loved the bike but they didnt sell enough for Polaris so they dropped it, I almost bought a new one for a song and a dance years ago at 12K and glad I didnt, simply because I dont want an out of production bike.
With HD I get a bike made by a small company whose business is building motorcycles.
 
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Also, yes HD dealer support is awesome and so are the prices if their aftermarket stuff. Its not priced all that bad.
Example, replaced my rear tail light with an LED. I went with the HD brand, DOT approved and the cost was middle of the road compared to aftermarket companies with non DOT products.
Better priced then most aftermarket products. I paid around $140 including shipping, aftermarket was the same to $100 more and I got a nice quality LED tail light from HD.
All I know is I feel the need to do very little to this bike (almost boring) as right "out of the box" its set up the way I want it, quality feel.
 
The last two metrics I sold, an '89 Vmax, sold for $1000 more than I paid for it, and an '07 M109R sold for $500 less than I paid for it 6 years later...not too bad if you ask me....
 
Oh, where to begin responding to the title of this thread?

I'll start with HD....Hd is rated 1054 on Forbes global 2000 largest companies. HD is and remains a US based company. It's also ranked around 230 on the Fortune 500.

Worldwide, it sold 266,380 units last year. 170,688 of those were sold in the US. worldwide that's approximately 50% marketshare of motorcycles more than 601cc.
One US brand, half the world market. In comparison, Honda manufactured less than
70,000 bikes over 500CC last year.

HD's cheapest bike was $10,000 USD, average price of bikes sold over $18,000 USD with them a majority of sales being over $25,000USD....do the math, Japanese manufacturers are! Then add an additional 46% of that amount which is generated in aftermarket parts and accessories each year. Then add in the dollars taken in at HD service departments and the number of service personal it employs worldwide.

HD is adding overseas dealers faster than it is US dealers...all with a cut of every
sale coming directly back to the US economy. Now consider the (literally thousands) of
US manufacturers specializing solely in aftermarket HD parts...from entire motors to
companies that generate millions of dollars annually manufacturing only aftermarket
valve train components. In short, thousands of US manufacturing firms would not exist
without HD.....THEN (Holy Chit) consider all the catalog/mail/internet companies marketing primarily to the HD market...and the US companies that supply them.
Victory and Indian are increasing sales each year in the US and abroad.

On to Europe...KTM is now the sales leader in Europe and BMW will overtake Suzuki
in manufacture and worldwide sales this year or next. Triumph is also increasing
worldwide sales each year.

Yep, the Japanese build millions of bikes each year under 125cc..so what, who cares?
Sorry about the fragmented format.
 
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Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Oh, where to begin responding to the title of this thread?

I'll start with HD....Hd is rated 1054 on Forbes global 2000 largest companies. HD is and remains a US based company. It's also ranked around 230 on the Fortune 500.

Worldwide, it sold 266,380 units last year. 170,688 of those were sold in the US. worldwide that's approximately 50% marketshare of motorcycles more than 601cc.
One US brand, half the world market. In comparison, Honda manufactured less than
70,000 bikes over 500CC last year.

HD's cheapest bike was $10,000 USD, average price of bikes sold over $18,000 USD with them a majority of sales being over $25,000USD....do the math, Japanese manufacturers are! Then add an additional 46% of that amount which is generated in aftermarket parts and accessories each year. Then add in the dollars taken in at HD service departments and the number of service personal it employs worldwide.

HD is adding overseas dealers faster than it is US dealers...all with a cut of every
sale coming directly back to the US economy. Now consider the (literally thousands) of
US manufacturers specializing solely in aftermarket HD parts...from entire motors to
companies that generate millions of dollars annually manufacturing only aftermarket
valve train components. In short, thousands of US manufacturing firms would not exist
without HD.....THEN (Holy Chit) consider all the catalog/mail/internet companies marketing primarily to the HD market...and the US companies that supply them.
Victory and Indian are increasing sales each year in the US and abroad.

On to Europe...KTM is now the sales leader in Europe and BMW will overtake Suzuki
in manufacture and worldwide sales this year or next. Triumph is also increasing
worldwide sales each year.

Yep, the Japanese build millions of bikes each year under 125cc..so what, who cares?
Sorry about the fragmented format.


Nobody's disputing Harley's sales success, but it's due more to their marketing genius rather than their engineering genius...
 
Excuse the pun, but don't sell HD short believing it's all marketing. No one will dispute that marketing gets people's attention, but it's the product that gets their money...or not.
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Oh, where to begin responding to the title of this thread?

I'll start with HD....Hd is rated 1054 on Forbes global 2000 largest companies. HD is and remains a US based company. It's also ranked around 230 on the Fortune 500.

Worldwide, it sold 266,380 units last year. 170,688 of those were sold in the US. worldwide that's approximately 50% marketshare of motorcycles more than 601cc.
One US brand, half the world market. In comparison, Honda manufactured less than
70,000 bikes over 500CC last year.

HD's cheapest bike was $10,000 USD, average price of bikes sold over $18,000 USD with them a majority of sales being over $25,000USD....do the math, Japanese manufacturers are! Then add an additional 46% of that amount which is generated in aftermarket parts and accessories each year. Then add in the dollars taken in at HD service departments and the number of service personal it employs worldwide.

HD is adding overseas dealers faster than it is US dealers...all with a cut of every
sale coming directly back to the US economy. Now consider the (literally thousands) of
US manufacturers specializing solely in aftermarket HD parts...from entire motors to
companies that generate millions of dollars annually manufacturing only aftermarket
valve train components. In short, thousands of US manufacturing firms would not exist
without HD.....THEN (Holy Chit) consider all the catalog/mail/internet companies marketing primarily to the HD market...and the US companies that supply them.
Victory and Indian are increasing sales each year in the US and abroad.

On to Europe...KTM is now the sales leader in Europe and BMW will overtake Suzuki
in manufacture and worldwide sales this year or next. Triumph is also increasing
worldwide sales each year.

Yep, the Japanese build millions of bikes each year under 125cc..so what, who cares?
Sorry about the fragmented format.


Nobody's disputing Harley's sales success, but it's due more to their marketing genius rather than their engineering genius...
Here's some engineering success for ya. Rows upon rows of success. Too many to count, but it's where all Japanese hi performance and technology end up. You will never find a Harley graveyard like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAHRfOQOzJY
 
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