interesting information about hydrous ethanol

[Kestas]

I vaguely remember some research being done at the Univ Of Michigan back in the 70s, where they were trying to find some way to infuse water with gasoline. The thought was to capture much of the waste heat energy by converting water to steam. The expansion of steam would add to the engine's power. Again, this is the same as what the water injection crowd is trying to accomplish.

I don't know whatever happened to that research.

 

[Shannow]

Kestas, I made reference to that in the other identical thread.

Might b an idea to merge them ?

 

[Kestas]

merged

 

[Diesel1]

I do have a 2000+ Jeep 4.7 the 4% distilled water by volume of alcohol in my e85 makes a noticeable difference in power and MPG. Anyone else try. Since gas shot up 20@¢ works best with e20 or e30

 

[DaryleWB]

The Brazilians really have done the bulk of the research in ethanol fuel that I can find. They stipulate no more than 7.4% water in the ethanol, so just above 185 proof. Perhaps leaving a bit of room for error.

The folks running high compression VW type 1 engines running hydrous ethanol add distilled water to their fuel to lower their cylinder head temperatures during a run. One of the guys says his engine is happy down to about 182 proof. Even with commercial E85 this same guy will add distilled water to the tank of his daily driver, just for shock value, to win a bet or prove that he can do it.

I run E85 from the pump, most generally. I wouldn't go shoving water in my tank, but it would really make E85 less expensive (and E10 slightly less expensive) if we used hydrous ethanol in it's manufacture.

In fact, I'd be thrilled if they offered hydrous ethanol as an alternative to petrol or E85. Then you'd start seeing more ethanol only engines, higher compression ratios, more advanced timing and so forth to take advantage of the properties of the fuel. It would also take the guess work out of jetting the carburetors for the old school crowd if the mix didn't change nearly as much for the seasons.

 

[DaryleWB]

Here is another interesting read on the subject:

http://www.nord-com.net/stoni/docs/SuTCAF.pdf

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: DaryleWB
In fact, I'd be thrilled if they offered hydrous ethanol as an alternative to petrol or E85. Then you'd start seeing more ethanol only engines, higher compression ratios, more advanced timing and so forth to take advantage of the properties of the fuel.


As an early adopter of methylated spirits in my fuel, I agree...however

I don't think that TPTB really want things to be remotely simple.

Have heard on the rumour mill that G.M. don't see more than a 5-10 year window for I.C. engines, with the H2 and electric boondoggles about to make them money/subsidies, at more total fuel burned per km travelled

 

[DaryleWB]

I suspect you might be right, Shannow and I totally agree about the boondoggles.

Every time I hear people talk about how H2 is the energy source of the future, I become upset. It is no more an energy source than a 'D' cell battery is... unless these people are talking about putting a wood gasifier on their car, which I may well do before it is all over.

 

[Diesel1]

Has anyone heard or read recent news on the permitted use of hydrous ethanol in the united states?

 

[Diesel1]

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/laws/LA/tech/3252 is Louisiana using it on state vehicles also suppose to use less than 50% corn

 

[DaryleWB]

Hydrous is permitted, it just isn't available for purchase at the pump. There are quite a few people who distill their own and use it. There is a permit process through the ATF.

If I remember correctly, the ethanol used for E85 can contain no more than .7% H2O.

 

[Diesel1]

Thanks for the info, so would you happen to know anything else about the permit? did you hear about the the Capitol hill croanies trying to reverse renewable fuel amendment?

 

[DaryleWB]

I don't know the specifics on the permit required. A friend makes his own hydrous. He mentioned to me once that the instructions are on the ATF web site. I've never looked at them. I don't have anywhere to grow sugar beets. ... not yet anyway.

 

[friendly_jacek]

There is no free lunch.

FWIW:

Quote:
For ethanol contaminated with larger amounts of water (i.e., approximately 11% water, 89% ethanol, equivalent to 178 proof ethanol), considerable engine wear will occur, especially during times while the engine is heating up to normal operating temperatures. For example, just after starting the engine, low temperature partial combustion of the water-contaminated ethanol mixture takes place and causes engine wear. This wear, caused by water-contaminated E85, is the result of the combustion process of ethanol, water, and gasoline producing considerable amounts of formic acid (HCOOH, also known as methanoic acid and sometimes written as CH2O2). In addition to the production of formic acid occurring for water-contaminated E85, smaller amounts of acetaldehyde (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (C2H4O2) are also formed for water-contaminated ethanol combustion. Of these partial combustion products, formic acid is responsible for the majority of the rapid increase in engine wear.

 

[Diesel1]

Wow interesting information any citing on that? I do appreciate your time and consideration. You have given me new reasoning to watch my h2o %. I have only been using 4% h2o the difference in power is amazing and by that thought with e85 I do get better mpg

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Diesel1
Wow interesting information any citing on that?


http://www.flextek.com/links/article.htm

 

[Diesel1]

Ah thanks so when do y'all think we will see he15 fuel?

 

[sdowney717]

"Ah thanks so when do y'all think we will see he15 fuel?"

hydrous water in ethanol is ok if ethanol is the main fuel, but wont work when gasoline is the main fuel as it will phase separate.
If you doubt this do your own experiment, take some pure ethanol, make it hydrous, then add it to gasoline, shake it and watch the separation take place.

Of course, why not let the government go ahead and mandate hydrous e15 and strand every motorist. That way our fossil fuel use for gasoline will plummet to pre-industrial medieval days and save the planet from human beings. I would like to read some serious proposals by dufus politicians on this.

 

[sdowney717]

lets say you make up a successful hydrous ethanol mix that does not phase separate in gasoline. Great, then you find out how corrosive this is to the engine later on.

Lets say everything is fine for now at the moment of filling. Then the fuel ages, sits in the tank. The fuel slowly picks up more water, then overnight the temperature drops and since the fuel was already borderline on water content, it phase separates and your engine dies.

Lets say you own a boat which has several things already stacked against ethanol.

Old fuel and engine systems not designed for higher ethanol concentrations.
Boat is in a very, very wet environment.
Fuel system mandated by USCG is open to the air 100% of the time thru the vent system.
Boats tend to sit long periods with fuel in the tank not constantly being refreshed.

Now add you hydrous ethanol to the system and you just added to the headaches your going to create for yourself.

 

[DaryleWB]

I haven't had any problems with water in my fuel running E85. Even after a long spell of sitting. My engine isn't optimized for ethanol, (When I rebuild, it will be.) but has been running on E85 or as the primary fuel for the past 18 months or so.

I don't worry about corrosion of ethanol fuel. Judging from the preponderance of data the Brazilians don't either. I've had cans of food grade E10 in my fridge for a long time. I've yet to experience a corrosion related failure of the Aluminium that caused the beer to spill.