How would you use your gun?

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Originally Posted By: ZZman
So you would not try to stop any serious crimes in progress you might observe that may save lives or stop a dangerous criminal from committing again?

No. If I can get my family to safety without drawing or discharging my weapon, I will.

Period.
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
The reason I asked this is an article I read. If the Good Man with a gun doesn't use it to stop the bad man, a huge advantage is lost.

And a "good man with a gun" is a dangerous step away from being a vigilante.
 
Like Massad F. Ayoob says -

Only in the gravest extreme would I use my weapon to protect myself, loved ones, or friends with me under my immediate protection.

Anybody unclear about when the can or should pull a trigger should buy and read his book- In the gravest extreme.


UD
 
Depends on the state,in some you can use force to defend property.In others no.Defending another person from harm-yes.Defending yourself-yes.

I knew a girl who witnessed a home burglary in progress while visiting a friend.Her and her host grabbed their pistols called 911 and went out and confronted the burglar.Said burglar ran, jumped into a nearby lake and tried to swim away and drowned.Sheriff's Dept came out took statements ,looked at the damage to the dwelling ,recovered the burglar's body.S.D.Told the ladies no problem here ya'll have a good night.

Just as a conjecture-if some one touches my wife I foresee a bad outcome for that person.
 
Maybe the answer for many would be: I have no idea until I was put into the situation. All people react differently.
 
The one thing you want to avoid, at ANY and ALL cost, is coming across to a LEO or District Attorney, as a citizen with a weapon and a CCW, who is just itching to use both. And that can be a very easy message to unknowingly convey.
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: bradepb
If you see your neighbors house being broken into and you go over there and intervene with a gun you are going to be in some serious trouble
That is merely a property crime and you are now the one that has escalated things into a deadly force situation.


But breaking into a house is a felony. It is only a deadly force issue if made into one. It means discipline.


I think you're wrong on this point: pointing it and discharging it are two different things.

They are not.

You're using lethal force, or the threat of lethal force, when you point your gun at someone. If there is no lethal threat to an innocent, you applying lethal force to the situation (by presenting, without firing) makes YOU the criminal who is threatening lethal harm. Once you unholster your weapon, you are bringing lethal force into the situation.

Imagine this scenario: You see a property crime in progress (a person breaking into your neighbor's house, as you suggest). You pull your gun and direct them to stop. They see your gun, a lethal threat to their life. They shoot YOU.

Who goes to jail?

YOU do, because you threatened them with lethal force. You were not justified in doing so. You were the aggressor. You were the first to point a gun. They had every right to a proportional (lethal) response.

You really need to consult a criminal attorney in your state.

I am only aware of one state (TN) that allows lethal force to prevent serious property crime.

But even then, I have a serious ethical issue with shooting someone over property.
 
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As plentiful as video cameras are these days, it may be best to intervene by recording instead of using application of deadly force. Easy call on theft, but life-threatening situations will still be a judgement call.
 
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Like Massad F. Ayoob says -

Only in the gravest extreme would I use my weapon to protect myself, loved ones, or friends with me under my immediate protection.

Anybody unclear about when the can or should pull a trigger should buy and read his book- In the gravest extreme.


UD


Great book. First read it over 30 years ago. Just as relevant today as it was then. I've given out copies to friends who are considering owning (or carrying) a firearm.

Mas' point: You should only use lethal force to stop a threat that is either lethal, or promises grave bodily harm. In the gravest extreme.

Property protection is unjustifiable for the use of lethal force.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: bradepb
If you see your neighbors house being broken into and you go over there and intervene with a gun you are going to be in some serious trouble
That is merely a property crime and you are now the one that has escalated things into a deadly force situation.


But breaking into a house is a felony. It is only a deadly force issue if made into one. It means discipline.


I think you're wrong on this point: pointing it and discharging it are two different things.

They are not.

You're using lethal force, or the threat of lethal force, when you point your gun at someone. If there is no lethal threat to an innocent, you applying lethal force to the situation (by presenting, without firing) makes YOU the criminal who is threatening lethal harm. Once you unholster your weapon, you are bringing lethal force into the situation.

Imagine this scenario: You see a property crime in progress (a person breaking into your neighbor's house, as you suggest). You pull your gun and direct them to stop. They see your gun, a lethal threat to their life. They shoot YOU.

Who goes to jail?

YOU do, because you threatened them with lethal force. You were not justified in doing so. You were the aggressor. You were the first to point a gun. They had every right to a proportional (lethal) response.

You really need to consult a criminal attorney in your state.

I am only aware of one state (TN) that allows lethal force to prevent serious property crime.

But even then, I have a serious ethical issue with shooting someone over property.


Would be an interesting argument. Pointing a weapon at a person can be considered felonious assault. But not so sure it would be considered so against a person committing a felony you are trying to stop.

At least I see no decent prosecutor charging it.
 
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Exactly - pointing a firearm is a lethal threat. A felony assault.

I don't think you're excused if you commit that felony to stop a felony.

The only legitimate use of lethal force is to stop a lethal threat.

A lethal threat consists of: Ability, opportunity, and intent. All three must be present for the threat to be present. A B&E in progress fails to meet the lethal threat criteria. The ability hasn't been demonstrated. The opportunity didn't exist until YOU SOUGHT OUT THE CONFLICT. The intent is clearly missing.

Because you sought out the conflict, with the ostensible burglar, by presenting your weapon to stop a felony, YOU are the aggressor. You are the one presenting the threat.

You are the felon.
 
First of all, the person considering all of this needs to be knowledgeable of the state and local laws about this where they live. Laws are different all over the U.S.
In general, however, if you use a firearm, OTHER than when yours or someone else's life is is in imminent danger, you're asking for trouble.
Think about what is going to happen when 5 videos post showing you shooting someone, no matter the circumstances. If you are not shown to be absolutely in the right, you're probably going to jail.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
First of all, the person considering all of this needs to be knowledgeable of the state and local laws about this where they live. Laws are different all over the U.S.
In general, however, if you use a firearm, OTHER than when yours or someone else's life is is in imminent danger, you're asking for trouble.
Think about what is going to happen when 5 videos post showing you shooting someone, no matter the circumstances. If you are not shown to be absolutely in the right, you're probably going to jail.


You don't necessarily have to "SHOOT" said rapist, burglar, thief, etc. Just pulling your gun might put the fear of God into them! But, before I leap into action, I will darn well know what I'm getting into before I make a life or death situation!
But then you might say,"Well, there's not enough time to analyze the situation!" Believe me, there is! Been there, done that.
 
Originally Posted By: bradepb
If you take a decent CPL class in Michigan you would not have to ask.
Only in the case of imminent death or serious physical harm.
Don't get involved for any other reason especially a simple loss of property.
Our instructor used a scenario of the guy coming out of your garage rolling the wheels from your car, you yell at him and he keeps on trucking, call 911 leave your gun in the holster and wait, your not the law and you don't pull a gun and arrest people. If the guy drops your wheels and comes at you with a deadly weapon that is the time to act.


^^^This^^^

CPL (carry conceal civilians) holders should only draw their weapon when life is at risk. Best to know your state and local gun-carrying laws, because most states have different laws and interpretations,

If you want to stop a thief from stealing your tires, do it without aiming your handgun at them, here in Michigan anyways.
 
You do not shoot your gun, aim your gun, draw your gun, or even verbally threaten that you have and may use your gun, unless you or another innocent party is in imminent danger of death or serious harm. Period. The same criterion for shooting applies to drawing and threatening.

If you are going to carry, you better know the laws.
 
Zzman you really need to take a CHL course. If not for carrying, at least for understanding why you can't do the things you are asking about.
 
Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted By: bradepb
If you take a decent CPL class in Michigan you would not have to ask.
Only in the case of imminent death or serious physical harm.
Don't get involved for any other reason especially a simple loss of property.
Our instructor used a scenario of the guy coming out of your garage rolling the wheels from your car, you yell at him and he keeps on trucking, call 911 leave your gun in the holster and wait, your not the law and you don't pull a gun and arrest people. If the guy drops your wheels and comes at you with a deadly weapon that is the time to act.


^^^This^^^

CPL (carry conceal civilians) holders should only draw their weapon when life is at risk. Best to know your state and local gun-carrying laws, because most states have different laws and interpretations,

If you want to stop a thief from stealing your tires, do it without aiming your handgun at them, here in Michigan anyways.


I agree. Hence felonies. If you heard someone breaking into your house would you not grab your gun? Point it at the person if they came in your door or window? Could a reasonable person assume they are threatened or in danger? I think a reason argument could be made for pointing a gun at the person. Shooting them would be another matter unless they lunged at you.
 
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