The syn has a lower temperature pour point...it will lube faster than mineral because it doesn't have to "heat up". I had the same thing in my Sportster with the engine but the engine took longer to come up to temperature because of the cooling effects of the syn. GM went to mobil 1 syn in the high performance corvettes because they were getting warranty issues on valvetrain oil starvation on cold start. JMO but all my friends who have v-rods and cvo harleys use a syn oil either syn3,amsoil...and they ride em pretty hard. So, I'm going syn3 20w50. Note: all my friends change oil at 3000-4000 mi.
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Harley Syn3 or Amsoil
- Thread starter KBFXDLI
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I am running Amsoil 20w50 in all 3 holes of my tc88. I have no complaints and it seems to work real well in Texas climate. I can ride year round down here and heat is my main concern. I don't put alot of miles on the bike and am debating on just going back to dino since I don't take advantage of the extended drain capabilites. Seems like a waste to be draining the Amsoil every 2K or once a year.
Todds: I wouldn't bother. That Amsoil will shear less than ANY dino oil. You will get less heat which means less component wear which means longer tranny life. I spent about 30 minutes on the phone yesterday with a tech guy from the MOCO and he said all the synthetics are better for all the Harleys and he runs Syn in his V-rod as well. They still offer dino for the old timers who can't wrap their brain around synthetic oil. Then I called one of my friends who is anengineer for the main HD engine component supplier and he checked with this test R&D group and they said use Syn3 or any of the other Vtwin rated synthetics and save the dino oil for your lawnmower. So, I am convinced that it's 100% synthetic for me. I'm going to try Syn3 and if I don't like it switch to Amsoil. Again, it's worth $20 a year. KB
Todds21: I think you are better with a synthetic of any brand for the heat reduction you get. It's worth the extra $20 a year. I'd stick with the Syn. My buddy in FL is an Amsoil junkie and runs it in his V-rod. Swears by the stuff. If it ain't broke don't fix it. KB
KBFXDLI : I agree with you on the heat reduction and am gonna probably stick with syn for the engine but am wondering if I would get better protection in the tranny and primary going with the dino recommended fluids. I am having no problems with the 20w50 in all 3 holes but am on the fence about using it as a one size fits all. I change the primary and tranny at every oil change since its not much fluid to change out and see no benefit in leaving the primary and tranny fluid in there longer than the engine oil.
todds21: If you want a heavier trans oil I owuld look at the redline heavy shockproof...that trans oil seems to be the favorite of most HD wrenches on the various forums. I may go with the syn3 in the engine & primary and redline shockproof in the trans because it is apparently one of the heavy duty high performance full synthetics out there. Plus. it's the same price. But, that's JMO.
The last MSDS I saw stated Citgo.
Yeah for those that don't feel alright with 20W50 in the trans there are plenty of good synthetic gear oils out there like Amsoil and Redline. As far as the primary chain, it's lube needs are pretty basic and clutch slippage is more of a concern for oil selection. The 20W50 synthetic you run in your motor is fine for the primary too.
I would tend to agree with you based on the size of those companies and would think a Citgo size corp would have the capacity to scale up a small operation for Syn3 and really reap the benefits of that price plus they could use an idle pilot plant size operation to do it. That said, the person who told me this also told me that the only difference between Syn3 and RP is that Syn3 has no moly in it. So RP would alrady have the formula scaled up then just leave the moly out of the blend and run a huge batch then package then back to RP. Not too complicated eh? I would think HD is paying about $1.60/qt but a company like RP only has a market that is so big and this could be a real nice way to squeeze a few bucks out of the operation quietly with no reformulation on a private label deal. Makes more business sense than Citgo. Interesting?
I doubt you will see Royal Purple/Amsoi/Redline type companies blending for HD. I bet the smaller oil blenders couldn't touch the pricing HD is paying for the oil from CITGO or any other larger oil Co. they decided to deal with in the future. If the oil sells for around $8.25US it probably costs HD 2.50-3.50 if that, and then it is sold to the dealer for a buck or two more and then the price is doubled and sold to the public.
I've just read through the posts on what everyone is running in their perspective Harleys. I don't have anything near as new as you guys. The only thing that I have on wheels, at the moment, is my 59 FLH. It will be back on the road soon, as I found some practically new antique tires in the barn (didn't know I had them), and will be replacing the slick on the back. My primary ride was my 76 FLH, until a chance meeting with a minivan, 01Sep04. Totaled the bike, and took me out of commission for a while. I'm recovered, but the bike is still waiting it's turn. I'm presently building my 42 WLA (military Harley). The 47 Indian Chief is next in line. Then I'm thinking that the 59 and 76 need to get equal attention.
All this is my form of introducing myself to the group, and saying that I use Amsoil lubricants exclusively. Since the early 80's. I used to break in engines on mineral-based oils. But, have abandoned that to extending the break-in period and using synthetics, only. I do run 20W-50 in 3 and 4 speed transmissions, for about 6 months (changing a couple of times). Then, switch to 75W-90 gear lube as the final running lube. Engine lubricants are 20W-50, year round. I'm no scientist. I just observe the results. It works. And, works very well. Here is a link to what my passion is in motorcycles (that is, next to my wife):
http://community.webshots.com/album/108151930HQkPCZ
Looking forward to participating in the group.
Jack
All this is my form of introducing myself to the group, and saying that I use Amsoil lubricants exclusively. Since the early 80's. I used to break in engines on mineral-based oils. But, have abandoned that to extending the break-in period and using synthetics, only. I do run 20W-50 in 3 and 4 speed transmissions, for about 6 months (changing a couple of times). Then, switch to 75W-90 gear lube as the final running lube. Engine lubricants are 20W-50, year round. I'm no scientist. I just observe the results. It works. And, works very well. Here is a link to what my passion is in motorcycles (that is, next to my wife):
http://community.webshots.com/album/108151930HQkPCZ
Looking forward to participating in the group.
Jack
Jack: Interesting. How long do you extend the break in period? I have talked to a lot of Detroit piston heads who actually have designed pistons & bearings for GM, Ford, DCX and even Harley and they recommend and oil change at 50-100 miles, 500 miles and 1,000 miles to get rid of what they call pieces and parts left over from assembly. (one guy runs a green engine at idle 15 minutes then drains the oil). But all said run the new motor through 50-100 thermal cycles (cold-fully hot-cold) at varied speeds staying at least 1500 rpm shy of redline. This in my best estimate is pretty close to the HD 500 mile break-in period with the same driver behavior. What do you do different? KB
KB -
New engine or complete rebuild:
1 - Run first until warm to the touch, on the cylinders. Moderate to fast idle. I'm usually adjusting the carburetor low speed setting.
2 - Let sit for 10 or 15 minutes, and snug all head bolts and cylinder base bolts (no thru bolts on any of the machines I deal with).
3 - Let sit until cool down to ambient temp..
4 - Run until warm to the touch, as in first step.
5 - Repeat 2nd step, except snug head bolts, only. Feeling for creep, and not pulling hard.
6 - Cool down to ambient temp..
7 - Repeat steps 4,5 & 6, until no creep felt in head bolts.
8 - Hit the back roads with no traffic, accelerating easy, never lugging the engine in any gear. Time the ride to coicide with a cool-down stop, every 15 or so minutes. Cool-down means I don't burn my hand, when I'm checking the temperature. Back side of the hand and fingers, only. Nothing like holding on to the handlebars with a blister. I try to make these first trips in the cool of the evening. Winter is my favorite break-in season.
9 - Repeat step 8 for a couple of weeks, never getting over 45 - 50 mph in high gear, on level ground. Never run in high, for extended periods, when pulling a grade. RPM's are not the issue, so much as the load.
10 - Change the oil, but not the filter. It ain't through working, yet. And, it certainly hasn't gone bad. Don't pay any attention to the miles.
11 - Hit the open road, staying under 60 mph. Ride at mostly varying speeds of 45 to 55 mph. Mostly level roads or easy grades, if possible. Cool-down periods every 30 minutes or so.
12 - Repeat step 11 for a couple of weeks.
13 - Change the oil and filter (it's still working, but just change it) at 500 or so miles, or end of 2 weeks. Whatever comes first.
14 - Repeat steps 11, 12, & 13, change oil and filter at 500 mile intervals up to 2500 miles.
15 - Take it on whatever trips, and whatever road speeds you feel like.
I would have ended the break-in at 1500 or so miles, with dino oil. So, there is only a short extention in miles. Time seems to be the greatest extention.
The tranmission lube gets changed with the second oil change, and the last, before hitting the road for a trip. But, the grade stays the same for the first riding season. I make the jump in grade on the next season. I used to flush with kerosene, but now use syn ATF.
This applies to all vintage models that I build. We're talking cast iron, and hot, for cylinders, and some flatheads.
Jack
New engine or complete rebuild:
1 - Run first until warm to the touch, on the cylinders. Moderate to fast idle. I'm usually adjusting the carburetor low speed setting.
2 - Let sit for 10 or 15 minutes, and snug all head bolts and cylinder base bolts (no thru bolts on any of the machines I deal with).
3 - Let sit until cool down to ambient temp..
4 - Run until warm to the touch, as in first step.
5 - Repeat 2nd step, except snug head bolts, only. Feeling for creep, and not pulling hard.
6 - Cool down to ambient temp..
7 - Repeat steps 4,5 & 6, until no creep felt in head bolts.
8 - Hit the back roads with no traffic, accelerating easy, never lugging the engine in any gear. Time the ride to coicide with a cool-down stop, every 15 or so minutes. Cool-down means I don't burn my hand, when I'm checking the temperature. Back side of the hand and fingers, only. Nothing like holding on to the handlebars with a blister. I try to make these first trips in the cool of the evening. Winter is my favorite break-in season.
9 - Repeat step 8 for a couple of weeks, never getting over 45 - 50 mph in high gear, on level ground. Never run in high, for extended periods, when pulling a grade. RPM's are not the issue, so much as the load.
10 - Change the oil, but not the filter. It ain't through working, yet. And, it certainly hasn't gone bad. Don't pay any attention to the miles.
11 - Hit the open road, staying under 60 mph. Ride at mostly varying speeds of 45 to 55 mph. Mostly level roads or easy grades, if possible. Cool-down periods every 30 minutes or so.
12 - Repeat step 11 for a couple of weeks.
13 - Change the oil and filter (it's still working, but just change it) at 500 or so miles, or end of 2 weeks. Whatever comes first.
14 - Repeat steps 11, 12, & 13, change oil and filter at 500 mile intervals up to 2500 miles.
15 - Take it on whatever trips, and whatever road speeds you feel like.
I would have ended the break-in at 1500 or so miles, with dino oil. So, there is only a short extention in miles. Time seems to be the greatest extention.
The tranmission lube gets changed with the second oil change, and the last, before hitting the road for a trip. But, the grade stays the same for the first riding season. I make the jump in grade on the next season. I used to flush with kerosene, but now use syn ATF.
This applies to all vintage models that I build. We're talking cast iron, and hot, for cylinders, and some flatheads.
Jack
Jack: Amazing, I do a very close program. But I'm going to syn at somewhere around 200-300 miles at the recommendation of one of my favorite 30 year detroit piston heads who now swears by it. I'll run the syn to 1000 and change again then I'm done with filter changes at each change. Have you looked at the redline high temp ATF or the shockproof heavy? My motown boys are sold on the shockproof heavy and they are the guys who just absolutely blister engines and build some real radical stuff. Most ride Harleys and use 100% redline oils. If you haven't try their website. Why do you extend breakin to 2500? KB
KB -
Burnish fit of parts, is the reason for the extended break-in. If it's slicker that dino, then it will take a bit longer for the parts to burnish. I've already proven that rings will seat in the same period, as lubrication is at a minimum on the top side of the pistons. But, I fit to the minimum factory specs, and extend the period so that engine temperatures are kept to a minimum. Even the finish looks better, with syn oil. Not that I have torn into that many new builds. But, curiousity over the years has forced me to peek at engine parts, just to see what difference it made.
Jack
Burnish fit of parts, is the reason for the extended break-in. If it's slicker that dino, then it will take a bit longer for the parts to burnish. I've already proven that rings will seat in the same period, as lubrication is at a minimum on the top side of the pistons. But, I fit to the minimum factory specs, and extend the period so that engine temperatures are kept to a minimum. Even the finish looks better, with syn oil. Not that I have torn into that many new builds. But, curiousity over the years has forced me to peek at engine parts, just to see what difference it made.
Jack
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