Graph of oil temp, ATF temp, and MAP
- Thread starter VeryNoisyPoet
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Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoet
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Interesting that a turbo car didn't come factory with an oil cooler, but looks like you have sufficient cooling without it. Perhaps if you were towing or taking it to the track it might need extra cooling. It is the first year for the model. Two years later they upped the HP and added an oil filter Hx with oil temp gauge. I have upgraded the radiator as it was not up to the job when racing. Stock hardware with a tune saw 240F coolant and +300F oil temps at the track on hot days.
I changed the t-stat last summer as it was getting lazy. It generally ran 180F to 183F. With the new OE t-stat it raised the coolant temp about 5F and so did the oil temp. T-stat is rated at 180F to open, 208F fully open. Coolant fan comes on at 208F but I never see that unless I purposely let it idle to raise the temp.
Aha. Did the oil filter Hx you installed get the temp back under control on track days?
I also just had to replace a lazy thermostat opening way too early. Rated 194F but opening before 180F so coolant would run around 182F on highway. Now it behaves better and runs 196F on highway.
I never took it back to the track. I feel the bigger radiator would have helped with the oil temps at the time. The Hx definitely would have helped. The Hx cut the time in half for the oil warming up from cold.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Interesting that a turbo car didn't come factory with an oil cooler, but looks like you have sufficient cooling without it. Perhaps if you were towing or taking it to the track it might need extra cooling. It is the first year for the model. Two years later they upped the HP and added an oil filter Hx with oil temp gauge. I have upgraded the radiator as it was not up to the job when racing. Stock hardware with a tune saw 240F coolant and +300F oil temps at the track on hot days.
I changed the t-stat last summer as it was getting lazy. It generally ran 180F to 183F. With the new OE t-stat it raised the coolant temp about 5F and so did the oil temp. T-stat is rated at 180F to open, 208F fully open. Coolant fan comes on at 208F but I never see that unless I purposely let it idle to raise the temp.
Aha. Did the oil filter Hx you installed get the temp back under control on track days?
I also just had to replace a lazy thermostat opening way too early. Rated 194F but opening before 180F so coolant would run around 182F on highway. Now it behaves better and runs 196F on highway.
I never took it back to the track. I feel the bigger radiator would have helped with the oil temps at the time. The Hx definitely would have helped. The Hx cut the time in half for the oil warming up from cold.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I never took it back to the track. I feel the bigger radiator would have helped with the oil temps at the time. The Hx definitely would have helped. The Hx cut the time in half for the oil warming up from cold.
Bigger radiator would have helped, though it would take the combo of that with the heat exchanger to get the oil temps down when thrashing it. As Shannow mentioned earlier, running at 4000 rpm vs 1800 at highway speeds kicked his oil temp from 95C/203F to 125C/257F+.
Quote:
That was on a road course in +90F temps running 10/10. Got 25 mpg when on the track though!
I don't go to the track but I'm positive I would get about 10 mpg if I did.
I never took it back to the track. I feel the bigger radiator would have helped with the oil temps at the time. The Hx definitely would have helped. The Hx cut the time in half for the oil warming up from cold.
Bigger radiator would have helped, though it would take the combo of that with the heat exchanger to get the oil temps down when thrashing it. As Shannow mentioned earlier, running at 4000 rpm vs 1800 at highway speeds kicked his oil temp from 95C/203F to 125C/257F+.
Quote:
That was on a road course in +90F temps running 10/10. Got 25 mpg when on the track though!
The most interesting take-away for me is that the oil temp did not exceed the coolant temp, assuming your coolant temp did not go above 100 C (212 F) at normal RPM’s.
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Since we see a direct correlation between rpm and oil temp I’m going to assume a person’s oil temp would not exceed their engine temp when driving in slow bumper to bumper traffic. Anyone disagree with that?
I don't do much stop and go in town driving but, the oil temp after the engine warms up is always higher than the coolant temp for me. Under no or little load the oil temp will drop but only to the coolant temp if that. As soon as I start accelerating it starts to rise again.
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
The most interesting take-away for me is that the oil temp did not exceed the coolant temp, assuming your coolant temp did not go above 100 C (212 F) at normal RPM’s.
Since we see a direct correlation between rpm and oil temp I’m going to assume a person’s oil temp would not exceed their engine temp when driving in slow bumper to bumper traffic. Anyone disagree with that?
Correct. Coolant temp did go up to 103C / 217F (cooling fan on setpoint) when sitting still for minutes in the first graph. Oil temp would slowly rise, but fell when the fan kicked on or I was moving again so it didn't quite get to the max coolant temp.
In a vehicle with a small sump and no oil to coolant heat exchanger, oil temp could very well exceed coolant temp while sitting still because heat continues to enter the oil, but there is little airflow or other means to remove that heat.
Take the actual temp numbers with a grain of salt, since I still have some calibration and other changes to do on the oil temp sensor. It also is measuring oil picked up from the bottom of the pan that has had time to cool. This engine has a relatively large 7 quart system for its 2.4L displacement.
The most interesting take-away for me is that the oil temp did not exceed the coolant temp, assuming your coolant temp did not go above 100 C (212 F) at normal RPM’s.
Since we see a direct correlation between rpm and oil temp I’m going to assume a person’s oil temp would not exceed their engine temp when driving in slow bumper to bumper traffic. Anyone disagree with that?
Correct. Coolant temp did go up to 103C / 217F (cooling fan on setpoint) when sitting still for minutes in the first graph. Oil temp would slowly rise, but fell when the fan kicked on or I was moving again so it didn't quite get to the max coolant temp.
In a vehicle with a small sump and no oil to coolant heat exchanger, oil temp could very well exceed coolant temp while sitting still because heat continues to enter the oil, but there is little airflow or other means to remove that heat.
Take the actual temp numbers with a grain of salt, since I still have some calibration and other changes to do on the oil temp sensor. It also is measuring oil picked up from the bottom of the pan that has had time to cool. This engine has a relatively large 7 quart system for its 2.4L displacement.
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
Originally Posted By: jayg
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
Well, not everyone has the time or skills to install a custom data logger in their car. There's all this guesswork about when fluids reach operating temp and how they react to different conditions. Even if there's a gauge, the data looks very different when presented as a graph over time where you can see the nuances of various events. So I completely agree with people who think this is a cool thing. I think this is cool which is a big reason why I went to the trouble of designing and installing this system.
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
Well, not everyone has the time or skills to install a custom data logger in their car. There's all this guesswork about when fluids reach operating temp and how they react to different conditions. Even if there's a gauge, the data looks very different when presented as a graph over time where you can see the nuances of various events. So I completely agree with people who think this is a cool thing. I think this is cool which is a big reason why I went to the trouble of designing and installing this system.
Originally Posted By: jayg
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
What's the data you've been able to deliver to the board ?
That's BITOG rolling at it's finest.
Post results of papers...it's other people's work...papers aren't "fresh".
Post results of tests like throwing a thermocouple down the dipstick, get bagged.
Go to the trouble of installing datalogging to an engine for real time data of his own car, in describable modes of operation, and it's old hat.
Not old hat when that's the first poster on BITOG to do that.
Guess people prefer to rely on their "feelings" when it comes to "imagining" how things should work...which is usually wrong.
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
What's the data you've been able to deliver to the board ?
That's BITOG rolling at it's finest.
Post results of papers...it's other people's work...papers aren't "fresh".
Post results of tests like throwing a thermocouple down the dipstick, get bagged.
Go to the trouble of installing datalogging to an engine for real time data of his own car, in describable modes of operation, and it's old hat.
Not old hat when that's the first poster on BITOG to do that.
Guess people prefer to rely on their "feelings" when it comes to "imagining" how things should work...which is usually wrong.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: jayg
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
What's the data you've been able to deliver to the board ?
That's BITOG rolling at it's finest.
Post results of papers...it's other people's work...papers aren't "fresh".
Post results of tests like throwing a thermocouple down the dipstick, get bagged.
Go to the trouble of installing datalogging to an engine for real time data of his own car, in describable modes of operation, and it's old hat.
Not old hat when that's the first poster on BITOG to do that.
Guess people prefer to rely on their "feelings" when it comes to "imagining" how things should work...which is usually wrong.
I didn't say it's not useful, it's just not magic. We did this 20 years ago tuning turbo Mitsubishi's with EPROM chips and Palm Pilot loggers.
You put in a request to do some warm up routine to confirm your hypothesis on some theory when you yourself could buy an OBD dongle and the torque app is funny to me when do it yourself for less than $20. For the last 8 years this stuff has been dirt cheap.
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoetWell
not everyone has the time or skills to install a custom data logger in their car.
Can you plug something in an OBD port? Do you have time for that?
Again, people's minds are blown. Do this yourself for virtually no money. I'm not saying the OP's post is worthless. On the contrary, they are useful and it's why I've been doing datalogs with various standalones since the early 2000's. The part I'm commenting on is most people not understanding how easy it is to do it yourself.
Originally Posted By: jayg
It's amazing that a datalogger graph is blowing people's minds like this is new technology. LOL
What's the data you've been able to deliver to the board ?
That's BITOG rolling at it's finest.
Post results of papers...it's other people's work...papers aren't "fresh".
Post results of tests like throwing a thermocouple down the dipstick, get bagged.
Go to the trouble of installing datalogging to an engine for real time data of his own car, in describable modes of operation, and it's old hat.
Not old hat when that's the first poster on BITOG to do that.
Guess people prefer to rely on their "feelings" when it comes to "imagining" how things should work...which is usually wrong.
I didn't say it's not useful, it's just not magic. We did this 20 years ago tuning turbo Mitsubishi's with EPROM chips and Palm Pilot loggers.
You put in a request to do some warm up routine to confirm your hypothesis on some theory when you yourself could buy an OBD dongle and the torque app is funny to me when do it yourself for less than $20. For the last 8 years this stuff has been dirt cheap.
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoetWell
not everyone has the time or skills to install a custom data logger in their car.
Can you plug something in an OBD port? Do you have time for that?
Again, people's minds are blown. Do this yourself for virtually no money. I'm not saying the OP's post is worthless. On the contrary, they are useful and it's why I've been doing datalogs with various standalones since the early 2000's. The part I'm commenting on is most people not understanding how easy it is to do it yourself.
Originally Posted By: jayg
Can you plug something in an OBD port? Do you have time for that?
Again, people's minds are blown. Do this yourself for virtually no money. I'm not saying the OP's post is worthless. On the contrary, they are useful and it's why I've been doing datalogs with various standalones since the early 2000's. The part I'm commenting on is most people not understanding how easy it is to do it yourself.
Yes...have it, doesn't measure oil temperature...
Can you plug something in an OBD port? Do you have time for that?
Again, people's minds are blown. Do this yourself for virtually no money. I'm not saying the OP's post is worthless. On the contrary, they are useful and it's why I've been doing datalogs with various standalones since the early 2000's. The part I'm commenting on is most people not understanding how easy it is to do it yourself.
Yes...have it, doesn't measure oil temperature...
Originally Posted By: jayg
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoetWell
not everyone has the time or skills to install a custom data logger in their car.
Can you plug something in an OBD port? Do you have time for that?
All three sensors on my logger are things that do not exist or are not accessible through OBD on my car.
I don't want this to turn into squabbling when all I wanted was to share something cool I did with people who might be interested in the data.
Originally Posted By: VeryNoisyPoetWell
not everyone has the time or skills to install a custom data logger in their car.
Can you plug something in an OBD port? Do you have time for that?
All three sensors on my logger are things that do not exist or are not accessible through OBD on my car.
I don't want this to turn into squabbling when all I wanted was to share something cool I did with people who might be interested in the data.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
...
(I only shut off the engine, dropped it into Neutraal and pulled off the road, dropping a type K thermocouple down the dipstick tube....nothing as flash as yours).
Test A
Drive on the highway in "D", then repeat for same speed (same road load) in "2" 1,800 RPM versus nearly 4,000RPM, same road load. 95C in the first, 125-135C in the second.
...
depending on your data sampling rate, you can catch the temperature spikes easier when a car comes to a full stop or if it is immediately shut off after a heavy load. e.g. driving with relatively high rpm and then exiting the freeway to a red light.
Not only the coolant flow is minimal due to low (idle) or 0 (engine shut off) rpm, the airflow is minimal as well. This is even worse on hot summer days, everything will be baking including your poor battery!
...
(I only shut off the engine, dropped it into Neutraal and pulled off the road, dropping a type K thermocouple down the dipstick tube....nothing as flash as yours).
Test A
Drive on the highway in "D", then repeat for same speed (same road load) in "2" 1,800 RPM versus nearly 4,000RPM, same road load. 95C in the first, 125-135C in the second.
...
depending on your data sampling rate, you can catch the temperature spikes easier when a car comes to a full stop or if it is immediately shut off after a heavy load. e.g. driving with relatively high rpm and then exiting the freeway to a red light.
Not only the coolant flow is minimal due to low (idle) or 0 (engine shut off) rpm, the airflow is minimal as well. This is even worse on hot summer days, everything will be baking including your poor battery!
Originally Posted By: OilUzer
depending on your data sampling rate, you can catch the temperature spikes easier when a car comes to a full stop or if it is immediately shut off after a heavy load. e.g. driving with relatively high rpm and then exiting the freeway to a red light.
Not only the coolant flow is minimal due to low (idle) or 0 (engine shut off) rpm, the airflow is minimal as well. This is even worse on hot summer days, everything will be baking including your poor battery!
Currently I'm sampling once per second, with the recorded value averaged over that past second. I could easily bump that up to a few times per second.
If anything these recorded temps will drop when engine is shut off due to the placement of sensors (attached to transmission cooler hot pipe, and attached to outside of oil passage in oil pan). So far I haven't seen much of a temp spike when coming to a stop, and I'd suspect any that does show up might be because parasitic cooling of the sensors stops when the airflow stops. Improved insulation will help there. A coolant temp data point might be of more interest here, since the stopped engine will heat soak and there's still a blistering hot turbo dumping heat into the coolant.
An under hood air temp sensor would be interesting to see as well at different speeds and conditions. Definitely looking at extra heat shields for the battery and a few other items.
depending on your data sampling rate, you can catch the temperature spikes easier when a car comes to a full stop or if it is immediately shut off after a heavy load. e.g. driving with relatively high rpm and then exiting the freeway to a red light.
Not only the coolant flow is minimal due to low (idle) or 0 (engine shut off) rpm, the airflow is minimal as well. This is even worse on hot summer days, everything will be baking including your poor battery!
Currently I'm sampling once per second, with the recorded value averaged over that past second. I could easily bump that up to a few times per second.
If anything these recorded temps will drop when engine is shut off due to the placement of sensors (attached to transmission cooler hot pipe, and attached to outside of oil passage in oil pan). So far I haven't seen much of a temp spike when coming to a stop, and I'd suspect any that does show up might be because parasitic cooling of the sensors stops when the airflow stops. Improved insulation will help there. A coolant temp data point might be of more interest here, since the stopped engine will heat soak and there's still a blistering hot turbo dumping heat into the coolant.
An under hood air temp sensor would be interesting to see as well at different speeds and conditions. Definitely looking at extra heat shields for the battery and a few other items.
VNP,
Forgot to mention that for example coolant temp in one of my cars goes from 185F +/- (cruising) to almost 199°F when I stop. I hardly ever see 199F during warm-up or driving (slow or fast) until I completely stop and there is no airflow!
The coolant temp spike in this car happens about a minute or so after I stop and the car is idling. however this car has an electric fan.
Once you are able to capture your coolant temperature, you may observe the same thing ... or maybe not ... lol
It depends on the car and the cooling system (electrical fan vs. mechanical).
I don't see this level of spike (after I stop) with the other car that has a mechanical fan.
btw, none of my cars are turbo!
Forgot to mention that for example coolant temp in one of my cars goes from 185F +/- (cruising) to almost 199°F when I stop. I hardly ever see 199F during warm-up or driving (slow or fast) until I completely stop and there is no airflow!
The coolant temp spike in this car happens about a minute or so after I stop and the car is idling. however this car has an electric fan.
Once you are able to capture your coolant temperature, you may observe the same thing ... or maybe not ... lol
It depends on the car and the cooling system (electrical fan vs. mechanical).
I don't see this level of spike (after I stop) with the other car that has a mechanical fan.
btw, none of my cars are turbo!
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One more clarification:
After the car has stopped and with temp on its way to 199F, if I rev up the engine (vs. letting it Idle) the coolant temp slowly drops as there is more coolant flow even with the fan still off and with no air flow.
After the car has stopped and with temp on its way to 199F, if I rev up the engine (vs. letting it Idle) the coolant temp slowly drops as there is more coolant flow even with the fan still off and with no air flow.
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Originally Posted By: OilUzer
One more clarification:
After the car has stopped and if I rev up the engine (vs. letting it Idle) the coolant temp slowly drops as there is more coolant flow even with the fan still off and with no air flow.
It will...would love to see the thermocouple in the sump while you did it.
Back in 1991/2, when I was messing around with inlet hose thermostats, the sheet metal "open backed impeller" water pump would move absolutely nothing at idle.
would use the water pump recirc hose (elongated obviously) in two buckets, and they could scarecely drive an inch of differential at idle...different with a few revs on board.
The cast impellers (closed back) actually moved water.
One more clarification:
After the car has stopped and if I rev up the engine (vs. letting it Idle) the coolant temp slowly drops as there is more coolant flow even with the fan still off and with no air flow.
It will...would love to see the thermocouple in the sump while you did it.
Back in 1991/2, when I was messing around with inlet hose thermostats, the sheet metal "open backed impeller" water pump would move absolutely nothing at idle.
would use the water pump recirc hose (elongated obviously) in two buckets, and they could scarecely drive an inch of differential at idle...different with a few revs on board.
The cast impellers (closed back) actually moved water.
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