FRAM CORE 9688, 5,000 Miles CUT OPE

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Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And before you accuse me of being a cheerleader, I don't use any filters that have end caps as far as I know.


I don't accuse anyone of being a cheerleader, I let their actions speak for themselves.
smile.gif
And before you think I am cheerleading for another brand, I have FU on my Odyssey and even a couple for my Fusion on the shelf, but I am currently running an MicroGreen to see what the UOA and C&P look like since I have a good data set (100k of UOA with PUP) to compare against.

I just personally don't see why anyone would trust 1/8" cardboard against a viscous liquid at pressures greater than 50psi. To me, the bent top plate will bypass dirty oil just as bad or worse as torn media since an opening will have even less restriction than one pleat torn away at the bottom. IMHO of course.
That's the same problem I have with the EG/TG/fiber end Ecores-if the end cap pulls down enough to nave a gap between the leaf spring/bypass, or the ADBV, there's a clear path for unfiltered oil. I haven't seen one I've cut open get that bad, but I'm not a fan of them for over 5K (although my brother has gone over 10K on the smaller ones without major trouble).
 
Some people do not understand the filter construction:
The end caps of the Fram Core filter are not cardboard.
The Fram Core Filter is a basic filter with enough media to meet Walmart’s TLE 90 day 3K mile warranty.

Some people do not understand filter operating conditions:
If it took more than 6 months to get the 5K miles then there could be a good accumulation of condensation. Condensation and fuel dilution weakens the cellulose in the media. Cold, viscous oil will increase DP depending on RPMs until the bypass valve opens. Depending on where the moisture is, bypass valve opening could be delayed and exposing the media to DP greater than the bypass valve setting. Conventional oil used for more than 6 months may have begun to thicken up thus increasing viscosity.

My
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Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
.....That's the same problem I have with the EG/TG/fiber end Ecores-if the end cap pulls down enough to nave a gap between the leaf spring/bypass, or the ADBV, there's a clear path for unfiltered oil. I haven't seen one I've cut open get that bad, but I'm not a fan of them for over 5K ....

Because it's not as obvious as a tear, IMO that is a point many don't recognize in dissections of EG/TG, but I agree with. I've seen that very situation on a Tough Guard posted here not too long ago.

Many EG/TG dissections don't include the view of the endcap area(s), either from the side with bypass and adbv on, or from the top with the bypass removed. I've seen the endcap pulled down and away exposing the centertube end in the area of a bent or significantly distorted pleat. That 'imo' can also be an area of oil bypass. I wonder what a view similar to, same as shown in the linked TG, would show on the topic filter in the area of the distorted pleat. My .02
 
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
.....That's the same problem I have with the EG/TG/fiber end Ecores-if the end cap pulls down enough to nave a gap between the leaf spring/bypass, or the ADBV, there's a clear path for unfiltered oil. I haven't seen one I've cut open get that bad, but I'm not a fan of them for over 5K ....

Because it's not as obvious as a tear, IMO that is a point many don't recognize in dissections of EG/TG, but I agree with. I've seen that very situation on a Tough Guard posted here not too long ago.

Many EG/TG dissections don't include the view of the endcap area(s), either from the side with bypass and adbv on, or from the top with the bypass removed. I've seen the endcap pulled down and away exposing the centertube end in the area of a bent or significantly distorted pleat. That 'imo' can also be an area of oil bypass. I wonder what a view similar to, same as shown in the linked TG, would show on the topic filter in the area of the distorted pleat. My .02

Sayjac - That is a great TG example. If I saw a filter like that, I would be using a more robust filter or reduce the OCI/FCI. And I agree, if the end caps warp too much, the filter may just go into bypass.
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
... -if the end cap pulls down enough to nave a gap between the leaf spring/bypass, or the ADBV, there's a clear path for unfiltered oil. ...
If that can happen, then tear-down reports on saggy fiber end caps should note whether such a gap exists. To be a real problem, the distortion would have to extend to the area of the end cap that's supposed to seal against a flat component.

The whole topic of potential bypass around the ends of media is neglected in the BITOG obsession over media tears. That goes for cartridges, too.
 
Originally Posted By: CR94


The whole topic of potential bypass around the ends of media is neglected in the BITOG obsession over media tears. That goes for cartridges, too.

How many of these filters in "potential" bypass due to fiber endcaps deforming do we have examples of?
I am not saying it is not a potential issue, but unless the deformation goes to the metal center tube (like in the TG3614 example above), there is little likely hood of bypass.
Torn media is easy to spot and you know if it is torn it is bypassing.
I also have seen a lot more posts of torn media than severely distorted fiber endcaps.
 
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Some people do not understand the filter construction:
The end caps of the Fram Core filter are not cardboard.
The Fram Core Filter is a basic filter with enough media to meet Walmart’s TLE 90 day 3K mile warranty.

Some people do not understand filter operating conditions:
If it took more than 6 months to get the 5K miles then there could be a good accumulation of condensation. Condensation and fuel dilution weakens the cellulose in the media. Cold, viscous oil will increase DP depending on RPMs until the bypass valve opens. Depending on where the moisture is, bypass valve opening could be delayed and exposing the media to DP greater than the bypass valve setting. Conventional oil used for more than 6 months may have begun to thicken up thus increasing viscosity.

My
49.gif



OK, fine, I'll bite. Please explain since "some people do not understand". What exactly are the endcaps on this filter, if not cardboard/stiff paper fibers? and exactly how is it relevant- do the operating conditions change the fact that this filter element FAILED? We buy filters to do exactly that, right? A failure is a failure is a failure, whether OCOD, Tearolator, or those M&H collapsed cartridge filters.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Some people do not understand the filter construction:
The end caps of the Fram Core filter are not cardboard.
The Fram Core Filter is a basic filter with enough media to meet Walmart’s TLE 90 day 3K mile warranty.

Some people do not understand filter operating conditions:
If it took more than 6 months to get the 5K miles then there could be a good accumulation of condensation. Condensation and fuel dilution weakens the cellulose in the media. Cold, viscous oil will increase DP depending on RPMs until the bypass valve opens. Depending on where the moisture is, bypass valve opening could be delayed and exposing the media to DP greater than the bypass valve setting. Conventional oil used for more than 6 months may have begun to thicken up thus increasing viscosity.

My
49.gif



OK, fine, I'll bite. Please explain since "some people do not understand". What exactly are the endcaps on this filter, if not cardboard/stiff paper fibers? and exactly how is it relevant- do the operating conditions change the fact that this filter element FAILED? We buy filters to do exactly that, right? A failure is a failure is a failure, whether OCOD, Tearolator, or those M&H collapsed cartridge filters.

Now would be a good time to ask Fram for the definitive answer.
User Motorking can be found as follows:
_______________________
Jay M Buckley
FRAM
(248) 808-4551
[email protected]
 
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Now would be a good time to ask Fram for the definitive answer.


Well, you had been so freely sharing your opinion that people don't understand I figured you'd share your wealth of knowledge, since you obviously feel you're more informed than those some people who do not understand. I don't need to bother Jay, I am not buying any OCODs. Problem solved.
 
Originally Posted By: car51
BlueOvalFilter: i enjoy helping others

DuckRyder: 5,000 miles on filter


Thanks car51, my apologies I missed that in the title, the coffee had not yet begun to take affect this morning...

Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: CR94


The whole topic of potential bypass around the ends of media is neglected in the BITOG obsession over media tears. That goes for cartridges, too.

How many of these filters in "potential" bypass due to fiber endcaps deforming do we have examples of?
I am not saying it is not a potential issue, but unless the deformation goes to the metal center tube (like in the TG3614 example above), there is little likely hood of bypass.
Torn media is easy to spot and you know if it is torn it is bypassing.
I also have seen a lot more posts of torn media than severely distorted fiber endcaps.


I agree, the way the leaf spring is designed the deformation would have to be severe in order to bypass as much as a tear.

Still, this filter and the linked TG are pretty well shagged considering the mileage... you could somewhat let this one slide because it is even cheaper than the EG and is intended for 3000 miles (last time i was in a TLE they could not even set the printer to put anything over than 3000 in the next due spot)... The linked TG is a bit harder to excuse.

Still rather have either one of them than a M+H.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Now would be a good time to ask Fram for the definitive answer.


Well, you had been so freely sharing your opinion that people don't understand I figured you'd share your wealth of knowledge, since you obviously feel you're more informed than those some people who do not understand. I don't need to bother Jay, I am not buying any OCODs. Problem solved.

People freely share their opinions everyday on BITOG. I think Fram’s end caps are much better than cardboard and I don’t care to guess what the material type is. The real problem here is not the end caps but the effects of DP on the media. DP depends on oil flow rate through the media and the viscosity of the oil.
 
Some Honda filters use the same end cap material, but it might be a bit thicker based on photos posted. Someone would have to measure them both to say for sure. The end cap material is much different than what people think when they hear the word "cardboard".

The design if fine, it's the manufacturing (wide pleats) that's the problem.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
I just personally don't see why anyone would trust 1/8" cardboard against a viscous liquid at pressures greater than 50psi. To me, the bent top plate will bypass dirty oil just as bad or worse as torn media since an opening will have even less restriction than one pleat torn away at the bottom. IMHO of course.


You know Subaru even has OEM filters with "cardboard" end caps - LINK

And no filter sees "50 psi" across it, unless it's flowing about 25 GPM with 10W-40 at -25 deg F.

All those Honda and Subaru engineers must not be very good oil filter engineers, but great engineers on all other aspects of their vehicles.
 
Zee, if they are farming out filters to Fram is it not likely they would also offload engineering responsibility to Fram as well? I don’t believe the old Tokyo Roki filters were ‘cardboard’ caps were they? I completely understand ‘typical’ cardboard is not the actual material but I think we can agree that an engineered pulp product regardless of the treatment can be called ‘cardboard’ for the sake of argument.

I really think we are mainly on the same page; we both (all) agree the Fram Ultra is NOT anything like an OCOD; a filter failure whether from endcaps or torn media is still a failure; and while none of us want a failed filter there do not seem to be any immediate detriments to engine life.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
... a filter failure whether from endcaps or torn media is still a failure; and while none of us want a failed filter there do not seem to be any immediate detriments to engine life.
Warped end caps are a failure if they allow unfiltered oil to bypass the media. If not, they're merely ugly. Whether the subject filter failed or not is unclear, so far.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Zee, if they are farming out filters to Fram is it not likely they would also offload engineering responsibility to Fram as well?


Yes, I would say any OEM vehicle manufacturer who has Fram (or any other filter maker) design and make their filters have given Fram (or other filter maker) the majority of the engineering responsibility. But knowing how sub-contracting works, Honda and Subaru engineering most likely gave Fram design and performance specifications to meet, and also bought off/approved the final design and performance tests, etc. So if they didn't like "cardboard" end caps thinking they were an inferior design, or couldn't meets specs, then they would probably have said so. That's how engineering typically works when sub-contractors are involved.

Like said earlier, this is another case of wide pleats and the resulting flow stress on the pleats manifesting into a potential problem. Wide spaced pleats are not a good thing on non-wire backed media oil filter.
 
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
.....Sayjac - That is a great TG example. If I saw a filter like that, I would be using a more robust filter or reduce the OCI/FCI. And I agree, if the end caps warp too much, the filter may just go into bypass.

Agreed. As noted, 'in my observation' the fiber endcap anecdotes with significantly distorted pleats frequently don't show the side view as shown in the ~5k mile TG bypass anecdote. Or, show the endcap area around the center tube end with bypass removed in the area adjacent to the distorted pleat(s). Normally it just says or shows no obvious tear(s) so all is assumed good.

As for comparison to tear oil bypass amount, seems a pointless exercise. Imo, either way unintended oil bypass is still oil bypass.
 
They have to put more pleats in and make them evenly spaced, or it's flimsy. I know it is a Fram and there is always an excuse for them now, but still it should hold true. Nice even and many pleats. I have a TG being opened, hoping it will be fine.
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Goodtimes - I agree adding more pleats and making them more even will probably fix this issue. Every Tough Guard I have dissected was pristine.
 
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