For those who own an airplane
- Thread starter 1978elcamino
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I don't own one but have my PPL and have been looking a Piper Cub prices a lot for the past few years.
It's not just the cost of the plane though, insurance, maintenance, a hangar, etc. all add up.
If I had the money I'd love to get one of the new Waco biplanes but a Cub would be in my budget a lot more than anything new.
It's not just the cost of the plane though, insurance, maintenance, a hangar, etc. all add up.
If I had the money I'd love to get one of the new Waco biplanes but a Cub would be in my budget a lot more than anything new.
The Jolly Wrenches!
The reasons people have for aircraft ownership vary. Many people simply want to fly locally. However, what I see is boredom setting in if that’s the only goal. Aviation has so many aspects, and I’d encourage any potential aircraft owners to strongly consider speed as a necessary aspect of ownership. Nearly all single engine aircraft can fly slow as the certification rules require low stall speeds. Not all make good cross country machines.
I met a guy through work a while back, him & the wife had matching ‘Hellcats’, cars. I thought the cost was in the $70+k range, then expenses.
I’m on my 3rd plane over the years, 1976 Rockwell Commander. My 1st plane cost $10.5, 2nd, mid 30’s, this one started just under $50k. Yes, with all one has expenses & the rest.
Financially one wants to have most other areas shored up before looking at planes. There are options with rentals & flying clubs.
I don’t have any real high $$ cars, toys are lower end. I’m really not justifying anything, not flaunting either. Many have fancier houses, furnishings, & vacations. Since Covid sales of light planes has really taken off. My older son is away with work now, in recent years he was my main flying partner.
I’m on my 3rd plane over the years, 1976 Rockwell Commander. My 1st plane cost $10.5, 2nd, mid 30’s, this one started just under $50k. Yes, with all one has expenses & the rest.
Financially one wants to have most other areas shored up before looking at planes. There are options with rentals & flying clubs.
I don’t have any real high $$ cars, toys are lower end. I’m really not justifying anything, not flaunting either. Many have fancier houses, furnishings, & vacations. Since Covid sales of light planes has really taken off. My older son is away with work now, in recent years he was my main flying partner.
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Planes are really expensive .You are flying a rule/law/required maintenance machine.
Speaking of meth; A guy I associate with has been in a rough patch the last 18 months. It started with surgery then a painkiller addiction. After that it went to insane, heavy drinking. He’s been through 2 rehab programs & more recently got 2 DUI’s and totaled his truck.
Then I have the relative that is north of $500k with a divorce, that’s just the legal & associated fees.
I’m kinda thinking either would gladly drop $75k on a plane if it would make the other go away. If my plane is meth, I’ll take it, addiction I can live with.
Then I have the relative that is north of $500k with a divorce, that’s just the legal & associated fees.
I’m kinda thinking either would gladly drop $75k on a plane if it would make the other go away. If my plane is meth, I’ll take it, addiction I can live with.
I'd never say flying is cheap or even affordable for those with modest income. However, light airplane ownership may not be more expensive than modern high end SUV ownership. Furthermore, the cost to fly an efficient light aircraft a certain number of miles also mirrors modern trucks. Keep in mind that modern SUV's depreciate very rapidly, use a lot of fuel, and 5 year cost of ownership may in fact be more than vintage aircraft ownership.
Some thoughts on ownership:
1) many aircraft loans are 20 years, with very low interest rates, leading to low payments
2) aircraft tend to retain value very well
3) insurance costs mirror SUV's
4) annual inspections don't have to cost $8K, if they do, that's by choice
5) capable owner/pilots can legally perform many money saving tasks, tires/brakes/servicing struts/oil changes/side window replacement/seats/interiors/fuel lines/cowlings/plugs/etc.
https://www.edmunds.com/tco.html (take a look here, a 2021 Ford Excursion King Ranch may, over 5 years, cost far more than an older Mooney) (you might also find that 2017 Jaguar F-Type ownership or other exotic cars have predicted repair bills in the $15K range)
But, yeah, if you wanna purchase a brand new Cirrus SR22t 315HP turbocharged monster, it's gonna cost ya, big time.
Agree. I owned a Mooney M20F and a Cessna 182. The costs were reasonable.
My wife and I actually talked about getting our pilots licenses with one day hopefully getting a small Cessna like what my grandfather used to have. They’d fly to Florida with it all the time. Took 8 hrs, but had to refuel in 4. Definitely seems like something a person could try out and if it’s not for you, easily back out.
Literally 2 days later we met some people at her co workers birthday party who had partial ownership in 3 planes, but they shared them with like 5 other couples. Thought he said something like the costs were around $6500 a year, but that sounded low to me. You also have to schedule your time with the plan as opposed to just flying somewhere on a whim, which IMO would be part of the fun and/ or benefit in owning one.
My luck, if I was to do something like this, I’d get stuck with the maintenance tasks. Who knows.
Literally 2 days later we met some people at her co workers birthday party who had partial ownership in 3 planes, but they shared them with like 5 other couples. Thought he said something like the costs were around $6500 a year, but that sounded low to me. You also have to schedule your time with the plan as opposed to just flying somewhere on a whim, which IMO would be part of the fun and/ or benefit in owning one.
My luck, if I was to do something like this, I’d get stuck with the maintenance tasks. Who knows.
Ultralight with 4 Cyl Jabiru motor. After retiring some years ago I learned to fly an Ultralight and then built a couple on my own and taught a few in this two seater. Had always wanted to fly but never could afford it when I was younger. Several of us would get together and visit other air strips and county airfields. Had to eventually let it go due to age but miss flying late evenings over farms and fields, often spotting wildlife having their late night snacks.
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That's all true, but leaves out an important point: when you own an airplane, on any given day you may suddenly and unexpectedly be up for $25k or more in expenses, if your engine develops a problem that requires an overhaul (like a bad cam).
That risk is part of ownership, so know in advance and be ready for it.
I'm really glad you brought that specific example up. There is no question that any type certificated aircraft is one AD away from major expense or even, if things get horribly, horribly bad, the scrap pile. That is a risk, albeit a relative minor one.
I did try to mention that the feared $8000 annual inspection was generally "by choice". Aircraft owners have all sorts of options available to them when "squawks" raise their ugly heads. Unfortunately, sometimes people just want someone else to "take care of the problem" and the decisions lead them down the path of greatest expense.
My engine is known for eating camshafts, which is a $500-$600 part, the tappets are similar. The gasket kit is about $400. The labor to remove, partially disassemble and reassemble/run the engine to change the cam is not as high as many would think. An A+P can do the work for $3K. The idea that a bad cam requires an overhaul is a repair center policy. The fact is, helicopter operators change camshafts over a weekend and are back flying on Monday. Same engine, same crank, same pistons, rings, valves, cylinders etc. New cam, lifters, gaskets. They never even remove the rods from the crank, or the pistons from the cyls.
It's good to remember that these are modular engines, clearly designed for on site repairs.
Here's a real-world story from my own aircraft ownership.
A few years ago the cam spalled in my O-320-D2J. The cam cannot be serviced in place, and replacing it requires splitting the case. This engine had 1300 hours on it and I wasn't the original owner (else it would have flown frequently enough not to spall the cam). In this situation, engine more than halfway to TBO and not knowing its history, you never know what you're going to find when you split the case to replace the cam. But chances are, it will be something, and more than one something. By the time you find those little surprises, the engine is already apart and it can quickly add up to an overhaul. I fly over large bodies of cold salt water and big pointy rocks with friends and family, so I want the most confidence in my engine as possible. So I took that opportunity to replace the engine with the Penn Yan O-360-A4M. Total cost about $45k when all complete, and I now have a more capable airplane. Just a day in the life of ownership of one of the simplest, most reliable and economic certified aircraft on planet Earth (Cessna 172). The cheapest I could have done in that situation was around $20k from a shade tree A&P, which as mentioned above doesn't suit my risk profile. I'm OK with a wrench so maybe if I did an "owner assisted" cam replacement working with the A&P I could have done it for half that.
If replacing the cam requires splitting the case, I don't see how anyone could do it for $3k as that is only about 30 hours of labor around here, and you'll spend a lot of that time just removing and reinstalling the engine, before you even get to the actual work. And you'd have to be lucky, not finding anything else wrong with it while you're doing the job.
The main point that we agree upon is that any given day, there are any number of things that could cost you more than the airplane is worth. Fortunately, they are rare. But if you own an airplane long enough, you will encounter one of them at some point.
I clearly understand. There is no question that many aircraft piston engines are just a bundle of old school parts. And it's really nice to know you have a good one pulling you along.
The 172 is about as easy to work on as possible. Engine removal takes about 3 hours, and if you are not done by lunch, you are wasting time. The disassembly does require removing the oil sump, cylinders by unbolting and pushing the piston pin out, then removal of the accessory case and splitting the engine cases. But it does not require removal of the timing gears, pistons, rings, valves, rods, fuel pump and other items like the alternator bracket. I don't believe the valve covers even need to be removed.
I understand the "halfway to overhaul thing too", but again, those overhaul hours are not mandatory, nor are they even a good indication of condition. Flight school engines run all the time and hold up longer than TBO, despite the abuse. It's not at all unusual to see an O-320 go 3000 hours.
We could put it another way, the engines are designed to be maintained, that's how the big boys do it, and "if in otherwise good condition" a hard time 700 hours remained, that's 7 years at an unusually high 100 hours per year. I think most owners fly about 50 hours per year, leaving a nice 14 year cushion.
The 172 is about as easy to work on as possible. Engine removal takes about 3 hours, and if you are not done by lunch, you are wasting time. The disassembly does require removing the oil sump, cylinders by unbolting and pushing the piston pin out, then removal of the accessory case and splitting the engine cases. But it does not require removal of the timing gears, pistons, rings, valves, rods, fuel pump and other items like the alternator bracket. I don't believe the valve covers even need to be removed.
I understand the "halfway to overhaul thing too", but again, those overhaul hours are not mandatory, nor are they even a good indication of condition. Flight school engines run all the time and hold up longer than TBO, despite the abuse. It's not at all unusual to see an O-320 go 3000 hours.
We could put it another way, the engines are designed to be maintained, that's how the big boys do it, and "if in otherwise good condition" a hard time 700 hours remained, that's 7 years at an unusually high 100 hours per year. I think most owners fly about 50 hours per year, leaving a nice 14 year cushion.
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Ah, there's the rub. I did consider that option, though for me that 700 hours is more like a 5 year cushion. You may not know whether it is in "otherwise good condition" until you start taking it apart to replace the cam. Maybe you'll get lucky and it goes without a hitch and no surprises. Maybe you get so many surprises that you end up wishing you bit the bullet up front and overhauled or replaced the engine because that would have cost the same and given you more for the money. For one example, with that O-320 that I replaced with an O-360, I didn't get the full core fee for the O-320 because the crankshaft was excessively worn and didn't clean up within service limits. Of course we couldn't know that ahead of time. But we might find that when splitting the case to replace the cam. Who knows what other silent surprises lurked within.
Ownership involves these kinds of risk management decisions where there is no "right" answer. The best you can do is inform yourself as much as possible, then commit to a decision knowing you don't know everything you need to know.
Here's a take-away point for those considering aircraft ownership. The marginal cost of the next hour of operation may be only $50, which is a lot less than renting. Don't let that fool you. The hourly rental rate is not as high as it seems when you amortize the big expenses that happen only occasionally.
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