Originally Posted By: Phishin
So, here is my question:
Has anyone had a problem with their shared-sump bike running PCMO's with a high level of FM's?
I'm looking for real world experiences. Has anyone put non-motorcycle Redline (an oil loaded with FM's) in their Harley or crotch rocket for exmaple, and have the clutch begin to slip or behave poorly?
I was just curious. I have never heard or seen of anyone getting clutch problems in their bikes running non-motorcycle oil. Perhaps it's possible. I don't know.
While I initially didn't want to post to this thread because the question at hand seemed like a loaded topic, after seeing the information here I felt some of the stats used here needed serious correction.
While I do applaud you (Phishin) in trying to show members that there are other high quality options out there instead of Motorcycle Specific motor oil like Rotella, Delo, Delvac, etc. HDEO's are much more similar in viscosity and additive packs than standard PCMO's. For instance, you asked is there or what are the differences between a standard Valvoline PCMO and their Motorcycle Specific oil, and there are definitely differences that have been misleading on this topic.
For one, the figures you posted of 1200 PPM of Zinc for M1 20W50 through the SVTperformance forums was for Amsoil High Performance, not for M1 20W50 V-Twin. If you are comparing a high mileage PCMO to a motorcycle oil then yes the zinc/phosphorus content will generally be more similar to M/C specific oil. Otherwise, if the oil is the same viscosity comparing a conventional PCMO vs a M/C oil, there are more dramatic differences (see my Valvoline explanation below). For instance, Mobil M/C 10W40 contains 1200 PPM of phosphorus and 1300 PPM of Zinc, while the Mobil M/C 20W50 you quoted at having 1200 actually has 1750 PPM of zinc and 1600 PPM of phosphorus, which is significantly higher than the Amsoil you quoted or a standard PCMO you can buy off the shelves. The link below is from Mobil's website on all their product data sheets showing the same data.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
Secondly, all the Virgin stats on the two oils can be obtained through their product information PDF's. Here is a direct comparison between Valvoline Premium PCMO and their motorcycle specific oil in a 20W50:
Val. Premium: TBN: 7.3, Noack Volatility %:
Val. M/C: TBN: 8, Noack Volatility %: 7.3%, Zinc: 1120, Phosphorus: 1030, Calcium: 1820, Sodium: 520
As is blatantly obvious MC is better in every spectrum. TBN is higher, the Noack volatility percentage loss (loss of oil at high temperatures) was TWICE AS MUCH in the premium than the M/C, Zinc and Phosphorus levels were nearly 40% higher, and Calcium/Sodium were also higher. So YES, there are major differences between these oils just in Noack % and the additive pack alone. Furthermore, the M/C oil will be utilizing different forms of viscosity index improvers to reduce shear, and will also be reducing/lacking friction modifiers to comply with the JASO MA spec. Additionally, just because an oil's viscosity lies outside the API SN specs of 0W20-10W30 does not automatically mean their phosphorus/zinc content goes up as shown here.
To further distinguish the two, the Motorcycle Specific oil is actually CHEAPER than the Valvoline Premium oil! My local Walmart sells the Premium for $4.58 per quart, and the Motorcycle Specific oil for $3.98 per quart, so yes, I would HIGHLY recommend the use of the motorcycle specific over the standard PCMO, not only for the cost savings, but for a much better oil that also meets JASO MA standards.
Here are the references to back them up:
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/premium_conventional.pdf
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_motorcycle.pdf
Now that we have conclusively established the difference between Motorcycle Specific oil and a standard PCMO, the answer to your question as to whether or not anyone has had adverse reactions in a shared sump motorcycle, the answer is yes. While I personally have not had an issue (I've nearly always used a JASO MA oil), I know of good friends that have had issues using standard PCMO's in their bikes ranging from big V-Twins to a Honda CBR600 F4I, and I've also talked to fellow riders that don't have any issue at all using them. While I do agree with Quattro Pete that it's much better to stay away from Energy Conserving Oils, I also agree that a large portion of any clutch issues are generally related more to clutch wear, contaminants and glazing, clutch springs, or other issues as BusyLittleShop stated.
Now to get to the technical stuff. JASO (Japanese Automotive Standards Organization) was formed back in April of 1996 due to the fact that there were no domestic quality standards for motorcycle oil. They initiated the organization because of three main oil related issues they were encountering by not having a motorcycle specific standard: 1. Lower Viscosity Oils 2. Effects of oil shearing 3. Improper clutch activation.
To put it simply, the Lower viscosity oils were providing improper protection due to a lack of oil film strength, causing their main issue in problem #1 which is generating increased wear/pitting throughout the gear assembly. Secondly, the effects of oil shearing led to improper protection including a lack of oil film strength which necessitated the use of different/stronger VII's. Thirdly, clutch activation was suffering due to slippage and not being properly engaged. The results of using PCMO's back in the 90's led to these issues (which would be more exaggerated in now a day PCMO's) and these issues are, and I quote that "These field problems have actually been observed that are probably attributed to such problems."
The use of a JASO MA or above (MA1, MA2) provide you wish these solutions to these problems, especially in regards to the clutch related issue you brought up by having to meet the Dynamic Friction test (related to clutch feel/take up, Static Friction test (relating to clutch slip), and Stop Time Index (relating synchronization time) thus making them more suitable for motorcycle applications than standard API designations along with other standards including: evaporative loss %, foaming tendency, shear stability, and high temperature high shear viscosity that are more strict than standard API designations.
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf
The Chemistry and Technology of Lubricants by Roy M. Mortier (Editor), Malcolm F. Fox (Editor), Stefan T. Orszulik (Editor) 2010
SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book by Roger F. Haycock and Arthur J. Caines 1996
So, to turn this giant post (and yes I'm sorry about the length) into something concise, I'll say this. PCMO's that are high mileage and HDEO's generally have similar additive packs to M/C specific oils, but there are serious differences between PCMO and JASO MA rated oils and that their chemistry's can be different (FM's, VII's, etc.). Does this mean "I'm in bed with JASO"? Absolutely not! I run Rotella 15W40 in both my Yamaha's (even though under their specs it qualifies for JASO MA) and balk at paying even the cheapest price I've found for Mobil 1 10W40 at Walmart for $9.99 per quart (which they indeed are ripping individuals off that purchase it). I believe we can all thank and appreciate Sunruh's UOA's which show that "*Most*" of the hype behind the oils is indeed just that, and I once again applaud Phishin for showing that you can find great oil out there for a fraction of the cost of some motorcycle specific oils, but to state their is no difference between them is simply incorrect. Again, these standards were created in Japan by their automotive standards organization to keep their motorcycles running properly and efficiently, they weren't invented by Mobil and Castrol to make more money, they just didn't want the motorcycle brand name oils like Yamalube to be the only recipients of motorcycle oil profit, but in doing so, they've gotten greedy and decided to charge more than they should. I've spent far too much time in this post, so I probably won't respond back unless it's something serious/pertinent, but these are the facts backed up by science with respectable references, to agree/disagree is just fine, but the facts remain the same.
