EVs and our future

[4WD]

wag123 You are exactly right!
And let's begin with the original problem; the manufacturing of the new battery for the vehicle. I challenge each of you to do your own research on the mining techniques, the abuse of the labor force in the 3rd world countries where the concentrations of these minerals are found, the huge amount of water needed in the mining/extraction processes and the resulting toxic pollution that results from that part.
That said, the world's supply chains are simply not ready for a mass conversion to EVs.
Then there's the power grid system here in the USA that doesn't have the reserve necessary to pick up the load of the nightly or even weekly recharging of the battery, especially with the closures of coal/gas fired generation stations.
All that said; This transition needs to happen more slowly and in an orderly fashion than what is being thrust upon us by TPTB.

Another reason I’m against “fixed batteries“ … it’s obvious that an EV needs a battery - but large battery facilities are just competition for surface extracted minerals … Unreliable power sources just need reliable backup or replacement

 

[ecotourist]

I think the legislation was created to develop a sense of urgency. If the manufacturers waited for organic growth to occur their transition to EVs would take decades.

I don't really believe that ICEs will be banned in 10 years. But by then EVs and the supporting electrical system will have developed to such a point that "everyone" buying a new vehicle will want an EV. Sure some people won't want to make the transition. But how many people were insisting on a steam car by 1940? Or even 1930? How many people buying a new car stereo today insist on it being an 8 track? And how many people buy a new VCR any more? And these technologies were all well developed. Times change.

 

[Cruzer4326]

I think the legislation was created to develop a sense of urgency. If the manufacturers waited for organic growth to occur their transition to EVs would take decades.

I don't really believe that ICEs will be banned in 10 years. But by then EVs and the supporting electrical system will have developed to such a point that "everyone" buying a new vehicle will want an EV. Sure some people won't want to make the transition. But how many people were insisting on a steam car by 1940? Or even 1930? How many people buying a new car stereo today insist on it being an 8 track? And how many people buy a new VCR any more? And these technologies were all well developed. Times change.

Legislation.... In my 57 years on this earth my observation of legislation has been that it rarely benefits the common man and mostly slows organic growth of industry. Legislation is driven by lobbyists, here in the USA. Probably similarly in Canada.
Some of us Yankees are on the Divergent side of thinking....

 

[meep]

How many people buying a new car stereo today insist on it being an 8 track?

Reminiscing: while I enjoy that my audio files don’t degrade over time, I really liked the sound of tape, especially 3 3/4 IPS.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Something that isn't being adequately addressed is the recycling problems that EVs present. This is going to become a really big problem in the next few years. As it stands right now, Li-Ion batteries can't be economically recycled, in other words, it costs more to recycle them than what the metals they recover can be sold for. Who is going to end-up having to pay for this?
As far as Teslas are concerned, salvaging the car itself is very profitable at this time because of replacement parts which can't be easily obtained from Tesla and bring BIG money used.

Actually it is being addressed. Europe is ahead of the game by a couple of years and getting ready to release new regs.

European Union a Step Closer to Adopting Expansive New Rules Covering Lifecycle of Electric Vehicle Batteries

The European Commission published its proposed Regulation in December 2020; the EU Council and Parliament approved their respective amended texts in…

www.lexology.com

 

[Cruzer4326]

Reminiscing: while I enjoy that my audio files don’t degrade over time, I really liked the sound of tape, especially 3 3/4 IPS.

Gee, I don't know about that.
One thing that has changed is the pollution from 8-tracks and cassette tapes getting "eaten" and thrown out the window into my front yard.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The biggest difference between the times surrounding the horse/car debate is that the free market was the entire driving force behind the competition. I don't remember reading in our history books of the promised demise of fodder for the horse by the then current aristocracy.

Did you know Henry Ford was the force behind publicly funded roads?

How Henry Ford advocated for public road building—until he wanted to join a fancy camping club

Ford was a big advocate of public highway construction, but when shutting one down got him membership to a glamping club, he dropped the hammer.

www.hagerty.com

 

[supton]

Legislation.... In my 57 years on this earth my observation of legislation has been that it rarely benefits the common man and mostly slows organic growth of industry. Legislation is driven by lobbyists, here in the USA.

While I agree it has slowed down things, I’m rather glad for minimum safety standards, be it in cars or homes. And while I did lament the loss of performance cars from the 60’s when I was younger, I much prefer the cleaner air that we have today. [While being glad that I was too young to deal with the junk cars of the 70’s!]

 

[Passport1]

I can't help but think some better tech will come along rather than 100 year old electric motor tech

There is. I'm going to skip the EV fever and go right to one of these,

 

[Cruzer4326]

Actually it is being addressed. Europe is ahead of the game by a couple of years and getting ready to release new regs.

European Union a Step Closer to Adopting Expansive New Rules Covering Lifecycle of Electric Vehicle Batteries

The European Commission published its proposed Regulation in December 2020; the EU Council and Parliament approved their respective amended texts in…

www.lexology.com

EUROPE AHEAD OF THE GAME????
I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect, but really??
Do you even read current events in any news articles?
And that article's headline"...a step closer..." is still late. And what do you want to wager that the spent batteries are shipped to some 3rd world country to add to their misery? Like the plastic "recycling" legislation that has been passed...

 

[Cruzer4326]

While I agree it has slowed down things, I’m rather glad for minimum safety standards, be it in cars or homes. And while I did lament the loss of performance cars from the 60’s when I was younger, I much prefer the cleaner air that we have today. [While being glad that I was too young to deal with the junk cars of the 70’s!]

Speaking of performance automobiles... Do you remember the "Malaise" period of automobile production?
There was a lot of time that passed that we had to tolerate smog controls which were only marginally effective when new to let's just say 1988 when nearly every production auto had EFI.

 

[supton]

Speaking of performance automobiles... Do you remember the "Malaise" period of automobile production?
There was a lot of time that passed that we had to tolerate smog controls which were only marginally effective when new to let's just say 1988 when nearly every production auto had EFI.

Thankfully not—I got my license long after that—and am grateful for the utter crap that others had to go through. EFI and computer control over engines and trans (if automatic) did wonders for cars.

 

[ecotourist]

Concerning battery life and recycling:

I understand that Tesla batteries currently have a pretty good life, like 300,000 or 400,000 miles. And they start off with a pretty good range so a 5% or 10% range reduction for an old car won't be such a big deal. Other brands haven't done nearly as well - I'm looking at you Nissan.

It's not reasonable to expect that the future state will be just like the current state, only more so. Times change. So what will change?

If EV batteries require rare metals, then logically defunct batteries would be a good (ie a concentrated) source of those rare metals. So expect a recycling system to develop when there are enough junk EV batteries to make it worthwhile.

And how could you prevent EV batteries from being junked in the first place when they develop a defective cell or lots of defective cells? Large batteries could be modular and the whole battery or individual modules could have (will have) replaceable cells. If batteries do fail, a cottage repair industry will develop.

In Europe you can buy range extender batteries that bolt into the trunk. Yes they do take up some space but that wouldn't matter all that much for an older commuter car or a grocery getter. And the smaller capacity batteries of older EVs (Nissans in particular) can be replaced with large capacity batteries from newer models. Expensive? - you bet, at the moment. But times change.

 

[PimTac]

All that said; This transition needs to happen more slowly and in an orderly fashion than what is being thrust upon us by TPTB.

This is what should be happening. If EVs are the greatest thing since sliced bread then every municipality should be running them on their fleets. The Post Office, delivery services, you name it. There are lots of cases where a EV could replace a gasoline powered car. But we are not seeing that.

The biggest obstacle to consumers is range. When you will be able to recharge the battery in 5-10 minutes then you will see a big increase in sales. Nobody wants to go on a long trip knowing that it will take much more time due to charging.

 

[edyvw]

wag123 You are exactly right!
And let's begin with the original problem; the manufacturing of the new battery for the vehicle. I challenge each of you to do your own research on the mining techniques, the abuse of the labor force in the 3rd world countries where the concentrations of these minerals are found, the huge amount of water needed in the mining/extraction processes and the resulting toxic pollution that results from that part.
That said, the world's supply chains are simply not ready for a mass conversion to EVs.
Then there's the power grid system here in the USA that doesn't have the reserve necessary to pick up the load of the nightly or even weekly recharging of the battery, especially with the closures of coal/gas fired generation stations.
All that said; This transition needs to happen more slowly and in an orderly fashion than what is being thrust upon us by TPTB.

Have you ever ventured to research around issues of oil exploration in Nigeria? Have you looked at societal issues in Saudi Arabia fueled by oil business, which in reality is family business?
All these technologies will have problems. But don’t pretend suddenly you care about workforce in third world countries. If you really mean that, you would pay someone to take away your gas powered vehicles.

Gradual change is happening. But most people are caught in this in a way Ernest Hemingway explaind bankruptcy “gradually, then suddenly .”

As for insurance that @Cujet mentioned, that is SERIOUS problem in Florida in general, which made FL the most expensive state to live in.

 

[sk_pete]

Reminiscing: while I enjoy that my audio files don’t degrade over time, I really liked the sound of tape, especially 3 3/4 IPS.

Tape and vinyl had specific technical properties
For example recording engineer couldn't twist the knobs like today's maniacs in loudness wars,.....
And of course the nyquist frequency which does bite digital in arse.
New tech not always better...

 

[UncleDave]

Tape and vinyl had specific technical properties
For example recording engineer couldn't twist the knobs like today's maniacs in loudness wars,.....
And of course the nyquist frequency which does bite digital in arse.
New tech not always better...

Sep topic - but Nyquist affects perception of video resolution as well.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Have you ever ventured to research around issues of oil exploration in Nigeria? Have you looked at societal issues in Saudi Arabia fueled by oil business, which in reality is family business?
All these technologies will have problems. But don’t pretend suddenly you care about workforce in third world countries. If you really mean that, you would pay someone to take away your gas powered vehicles.

Gradual change is happening. But most people are caught in this in a way Ernest Hemingway explaind bankruptcy “gradually, then suddenly .”

As for insurance that @Cujet mentioned, that is SERIOUS problem in Florida in general, which made FL the most expensive state to live in.

@edyvw you are a beautiful man.

 

[Koainn]

Legislation.... In my 57 years on this earth my observation of legislation has been that it rarely benefits the common man and mostly slows organic growth of industry. Legislation is driven by lobbyists, here in the USA. Probably similarly in Canada.
Some of us Yankees are on the Divergent side of thinking....

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894

By the late 1800s, large cities all around the world were drowning in horse manure. The London Times predicted in 1894 that in 50 years time, every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure.

www.historic-uk.com

The Big Shift Last Time: From Horse Dung to Car Smog | The Tyee

Lessons from an earlier energy transition. Third in a series.

thetyee.ca

To continue my horse/car analogy since the ice/ EV debate seems to mirror it, legislation was used from the steam engine days to curtail horses in cities. I'd rather breathe somewhat fresher air by making ev's mandatory than go thru the whole "manure" argument that ice leaves behind

People back then didn't want to give up horses and used the same excuses I've read in this thread lol

Same thing happened between canals and railroads in late 18 early 19th centuries...same ole manure was thrown around to keep canals over railroads

 

[Oillover]

Ever own one? The maintenance schedule and costs are crazy!

I've heard similar sentiments toward Volvo ownership.