The biggest overlooked "detail" in this was the highly esoteric knowledge that the highways were not designed for all occupants to go the same place at the same time, therefore they should free up the lanes going in the opposite direction. It took them about a day to figure that out.
Evacuating major U.S. city: Lessons
- Thread starter TheTanSedan
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The evacuation was supposed to take place in stages, and started out that way, but then everyone decided to leave, and it got terrible. Who is going to give the tickets? The cops are too busy doing other things.
No, it took less than that, but supplies were coming into town and closing down one of the largest freeways is not an easy task. There needs to be a barricade at each entrance (usually with a person posted there) to the freeway. Many areas do not have a feeder road, the freeway is used for local traffic also. They then need to decide where to make the switch and how far to do it for and then where to make it come back together. Most of I-45 in Houston has 2 solid barricade walls for the HOV lane. These would have to be destroyed and paved over to do it. Luckily where they did do the switch was a construction zone, so the equipment was already there to do it with.
As for the original post, who knows. This was not something that the average person can plan for. The fact of the fuel shortage just blew any plan out the window. Cars were not designed to idle for 30+ hrs. A guy I work with had his girlfriend leave from the Beltway south of Houston @ 6am Thursday with a full tank of gas (2002 Dodge Concord?). She got to Huntsville (70 miles) @ about 2:30am and ran out of gas while stopped in a Kroger Parking lot waiting for a gas truck to show up.
She got gas @ 6 this morning and drove home in 45 minutes.
How do you plan for this? I guess that is what your asking also.
My wife on the other hand left Wednesday morning from Katy and got to Hondo with no traffic at all.
my brother left Pearland,TX (7 miles south of the astrodome on hwy288) at 3:30am on thrusday. he got 1.5 miles down the road before he came to a standstill on 288. he had already passed 5 gas stations with no fuel. his 05 tacoma had a full tank. slowly they made it to the Beltway 8 and went on the west loop. at a crawl. after 14 hours they made it onto hwy 290, some 29.5 miles form his house. i finally found some other roads for him to try and he did. in vain. after 15 hours and 41 total miles and completely stopped in traffic they turned around and went home. they made it back in 48 minutes!!!
finaly tally:
81 miles in 16 hours and half a tank of gas.
at 2:30pm saturday their power was back and he had all the boards off the windows. he said it really never rained that hard at his place.
had rita landed 50-75 miles west of where it did, things would have been vastly different and catastrophic.
finaly tally:
81 miles in 16 hours and half a tank of gas.
at 2:30pm saturday their power was back and he had all the boards off the windows. he said it really never rained that hard at his place.
had rita landed 50-75 miles west of where it did, things would have been vastly different and catastrophic.
Sure appreciate the related experiences!
Some planning and preparation beats the heck out of none. When the son and I headed south on IH-35 on Thursday, the truck was already overfilled with gas (with an extra shot of FUEL POWER); had plenty of food, water, tools, winch bar, chains and some other stuff from the truck driving days. Shoot, I can't hardly lift those chain bags anymore, but that's why *** made Marines (he's 22). A few other supplies as well. Overkill? Sure . . . all it takes is one serious accident to shut down an Interstate (witness the roasted old folks trapped aboard that bus owned by crooks), and we could have been a very long time in getting home OR trying to find a motel room. Plus, we could have been of help to others if need be.
For now I'm going to plan on 8-hours of fuel from the main tank, and carry [6] 5-gl fuel jugs. That gives me 20-hours plus reserve (or fuel to barter with or give away).
As to not being able to idle for 30-hours, sure they can. EFI is wonderful for that. If the owner keeps well ahead of the maintenance/repair curve. I see far too many posts around here that claim "well, it isn't worth it" for some so-called reason or another. I've always enjoyed driving into and out of some areas with little traffic, so never wanted to take the chance or trust to dumb luck.
To open IH-45 to one-way traffic, which it was reported was done by 1200 Thursday (any dispute?), it was also said that 130 exits/entrances had to be closed. No small endeavor, and I respect the TxDOT personnel who did the work.
Would enjoy hearing more from the areas evacuated.
And in determining, from the original post, some better numbers as rules of thumb.
Some planning and preparation beats the heck out of none. When the son and I headed south on IH-35 on Thursday, the truck was already overfilled with gas (with an extra shot of FUEL POWER); had plenty of food, water, tools, winch bar, chains and some other stuff from the truck driving days. Shoot, I can't hardly lift those chain bags anymore, but that's why *** made Marines (he's 22). A few other supplies as well. Overkill? Sure . . . all it takes is one serious accident to shut down an Interstate (witness the roasted old folks trapped aboard that bus owned by crooks), and we could have been a very long time in getting home OR trying to find a motel room. Plus, we could have been of help to others if need be.
For now I'm going to plan on 8-hours of fuel from the main tank, and carry [6] 5-gl fuel jugs. That gives me 20-hours plus reserve (or fuel to barter with or give away).
As to not being able to idle for 30-hours, sure they can. EFI is wonderful for that. If the owner keeps well ahead of the maintenance/repair curve. I see far too many posts around here that claim "well, it isn't worth it" for some so-called reason or another. I've always enjoyed driving into and out of some areas with little traffic, so never wanted to take the chance or trust to dumb luck.
To open IH-45 to one-way traffic, which it was reported was done by 1200 Thursday (any dispute?), it was also said that 130 exits/entrances had to be closed. No small endeavor, and I respect the TxDOT personnel who did the work.
Would enjoy hearing more from the areas evacuated.
And in determining, from the original post, some better numbers as rules of thumb.
Some good articles in NYT and other outlets on the details of the evacuation. Carrying capacity of roads, number of personnel to enable road changes, etc. Also, EPA rates city driving at 24 mph.
The killer for any gas engine is up to 20 mph in wasted fuel.
The killer for any gas engine is up to 20 mph in wasted fuel.
i just talked with my brother.
he says southbound IH-45 out of dallas is at a standstill in Corsicana. construction has it down to 1 lane. so, think of how bad it was going north and now DOUBLE that coming back south!
as far as the topic goes, some cities are bound by their position (ocean, gulf, river, mountain) in which they CAN evacuate. coupled with their population (or lack there of) things can go from bad to ugly to impossible. as an example, how (or where?) would you evacuate Los Angeles too if the major earthquake was east of the city? north and south are the only options and puts you in aftershock central. san diego goes where if a quake hits slightly north of them? where do you evacuate miami to if a tidal wave hits north of them?
he says southbound IH-45 out of dallas is at a standstill in Corsicana. construction has it down to 1 lane. so, think of how bad it was going north and now DOUBLE that coming back south!
as far as the topic goes, some cities are bound by their position (ocean, gulf, river, mountain) in which they CAN evacuate. coupled with their population (or lack there of) things can go from bad to ugly to impossible. as an example, how (or where?) would you evacuate Los Angeles too if the major earthquake was east of the city? north and south are the only options and puts you in aftershock central. san diego goes where if a quake hits slightly north of them? where do you evacuate miami to if a tidal wave hits north of them?
Watching Katrina and the aftermath, and also during Rita, I kept commenting to the family on how many scenes looked something out of the 'Day After'. Can you imagine what would have happened if a Category 5 had landed and caught everyone on the highway ?
Unless you get out early or know of a back route I don't think that it's reasonable to expect to evacuate by highway, as they're clogged during rush hour, or due to one accident. How many remember the 'duck and cover' drills during the Cold War ? The expectation was that evacuation wouldn't be feasible, and that one needed to rely upon civil defense or personal 'bomb shelters'. People outside of the frost belt don't appear to build basements often, but some sort of shelter seems warranted for people in tornado or hurricane country. Still, I remember that some people died during the fires in So Cal a few years back as their cars ran out of gas and they couldn't get away from the fires.
We live with volcanos around here, but the population affected by a single eruption will tend to be smaller, and the expectation is that there will be more warning for an evacuation.
Unless you get out early or know of a back route I don't think that it's reasonable to expect to evacuate by highway, as they're clogged during rush hour, or due to one accident. How many remember the 'duck and cover' drills during the Cold War ? The expectation was that evacuation wouldn't be feasible, and that one needed to rely upon civil defense or personal 'bomb shelters'. People outside of the frost belt don't appear to build basements often, but some sort of shelter seems warranted for people in tornado or hurricane country. Still, I remember that some people died during the fires in So Cal a few years back as their cars ran out of gas and they couldn't get away from the fires.
We live with volcanos around here, but the population affected by a single eruption will tend to be smaller, and the expectation is that there will be more warning for an evacuation.
Granted, thus the need to be able to predict vehicle fuel endurance in operating time.
The best map reading and choices in the world won't mean much without fuel.
The best map reading and choices in the world won't mean much without fuel.
FWIW,
Had a 1972 Dotsun 610 that ran OK on Coleman Fuel.
??
Had a 1972 Dotsun 610 that ran OK on Coleman Fuel.
??
The two scenarios scared me.
First thought in N.O. was "why did they stay".
Then saw the freeway car-parks, and thought "If it hits while they are stranded it will be carnage."
Looking at it, I think I'd stay (anyway, at 900m above sea level...I don't have to worry)
First thought in N.O. was "why did they stay".
Then saw the freeway car-parks, and thought "If it hits while they are stranded it will be carnage."
Looking at it, I think I'd stay (anyway, at 900m above sea level...I don't have to worry)
I recently received a reply from "HankL" a guy who makes some fine technical contributions on boards catering to DODGE pickup trucks:
"I have not looked at fuel consumption at speeds around 20 mph. I can easily play with looking at that on the Oztrip [onboard trip compputer], and will try to remember to do some watching.
My guess on a 1995 5.9V8 Dodge Ram is at idle around 0.65 gallons per hour with the AC off, 0.75 gallons per hour with AC on, and in that short period of acceleration as you 'inch' forward in the traffic jam about 6 MPG, which at 20 mph average would work out to about your numbers of 1-1.5 gallons per hour.
If cars could keep moving forward at a steady creeping speed of 20 mph in 3rd gear without stops/starts/accelerations in 1st gear I would bet the maximum would be no more than 30 MPG or
(20 mph/30 MPG )
= .66 gallon per hour, tops.
My experience with the Ram is that maximum fuel economy I have observed is 25 MPG around 50 mph in OD top gear on a flat road.
I read a research article once (I think by engineers at DaimlerChrysler) where it said the number of vehicles moved across a mile of highway per hour keeps increasing as the distance between vehicles decreases with lower speed - down to a maximum at 16 mph. Below 16 mph the number of vehicles moved across a mile then decreases.
I guess one lesson of the traffic jams with the Hurricanes is that if you are moving at 3-10 mph, the authorities have let the highway 'get out of control' and are moving less total vehicles out of harm's way than you would at 16 mph or more."
"I have not looked at fuel consumption at speeds around 20 mph. I can easily play with looking at that on the Oztrip [onboard trip compputer], and will try to remember to do some watching.
My guess on a 1995 5.9V8 Dodge Ram is at idle around 0.65 gallons per hour with the AC off, 0.75 gallons per hour with AC on, and in that short period of acceleration as you 'inch' forward in the traffic jam about 6 MPG, which at 20 mph average would work out to about your numbers of 1-1.5 gallons per hour.
If cars could keep moving forward at a steady creeping speed of 20 mph in 3rd gear without stops/starts/accelerations in 1st gear I would bet the maximum would be no more than 30 MPG or
(20 mph/30 MPG )
= .66 gallon per hour, tops.
My experience with the Ram is that maximum fuel economy I have observed is 25 MPG around 50 mph in OD top gear on a flat road.
I read a research article once (I think by engineers at DaimlerChrysler) where it said the number of vehicles moved across a mile of highway per hour keeps increasing as the distance between vehicles decreases with lower speed - down to a maximum at 16 mph. Below 16 mph the number of vehicles moved across a mile then decreases.
I guess one lesson of the traffic jams with the Hurricanes is that if you are moving at 3-10 mph, the authorities have let the highway 'get out of control' and are moving less total vehicles out of harm's way than you would at 16 mph or more."
This current post has me thinking again. The season is a comin' (From "neat little ol' FP story")
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=005030
Quoted:
"Last year, after Katrina, I drove from Picayune, MS to Baton Rouge, LA to get gas. I think I went 3 times and spent $400. Sigh.......it's good to be over it. Others aren't. I didn't even have damage to my mobile home, and the wind was clocked @ 135+, though that's not the official speed".
Jason
"Would appreciate more details, in another post. I think I'll revive one I started last year after Rita sent my [since deceased] 86 yr old father-in-law on a 12-hour drive to get out of South Texas.
I've been wondering at just how much extra gas to carry in a situation like this. Now, your post makes me wonder at distance-to-buy, price-paid, fuel quality and the rest. Folks seem to have forgotten Rita as quickly as the Feds forgot New Orleans. Not a good sign, as thousands of cars were stranded here, just trying to leave."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=005030
Quoted:
"Last year, after Katrina, I drove from Picayune, MS to Baton Rouge, LA to get gas. I think I went 3 times and spent $400. Sigh.......it's good to be over it. Others aren't. I didn't even have damage to my mobile home, and the wind was clocked @ 135+, though that's not the official speed".
Jason
"Would appreciate more details, in another post. I think I'll revive one I started last year after Rita sent my [since deceased] 86 yr old father-in-law on a 12-hour drive to get out of South Texas.
I've been wondering at just how much extra gas to carry in a situation like this. Now, your post makes me wonder at distance-to-buy, price-paid, fuel quality and the rest. Folks seem to have forgotten Rita as quickly as the Feds forgot New Orleans. Not a good sign, as thousands of cars were stranded here, just trying to leave."
A related thread from that point in time.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006260
New thoughts, anyone, on mpg versus endurance and the rest?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006260
New thoughts, anyone, on mpg versus endurance and the rest?
I was stuck on U.S. 61 heading out of New Orleans last year, and took 12 hours to go 120 miles.
My plan for future hurricanes is simple.
Move somewhere else, somewhere higher and drier, long before I have to go through all of that again.
-- Paul W.
My plan for future hurricanes is simple.
Move somewhere else, somewhere higher and drier, long before I have to go through all of that again.
-- Paul W.
A pdf study from the American Highway Users Alliance in re emergency evacuation capacity for the nation's 37 largest metro areas:
http://www.highways.org/pdfs/evacuation_report_card2006.pdf
Haven't read it through yet, but as it was a topic of conversation with son yesterday it felt timely. He left Dallas enroute to NAS Pensacola for about a six month station (advised him to buy, keep empty, [3] 5-gl gasoline cans for his Jeep; even at 5 mpg that ought to be 175 mile minimum range). He told me today that he'd made notes of bridges, overhead power lines, etc on his turn south from Interstate 20, a good idea.
I need to run a few routes from the house after some more study. Any one done some work on this problem?
http://www.highways.org/pdfs/evacuation_report_card2006.pdf
Haven't read it through yet, but as it was a topic of conversation with son yesterday it felt timely. He left Dallas enroute to NAS Pensacola for about a six month station (advised him to buy, keep empty, [3] 5-gl gasoline cans for his Jeep; even at 5 mpg that ought to be 175 mile minimum range). He told me today that he'd made notes of bridges, overhead power lines, etc on his turn south from Interstate 20, a good idea.
I need to run a few routes from the house after some more study. Any one done some work on this problem?
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