Does PAO content matter?
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Originally Posted By: tig1
All M1 oils are not grp 3.
True, not that is really matters a lot in the final new mix and especially in the mix of used oil.
Once you run a high PAO oil in a gasoline engine, it has been exposed to the same contaminants itis a mix of combustion by products, fuel and other contamination to.making all that purity a bit funny.
I have seen pure PAO work forever in heavy HVAC fan systems and sealed gear boxes but..
IC engines are a game of resisting the effects of contamination. Sometimes the add pack may be a better influence on outcomes than the difference between group III and IV base oils as a portion of the mix.
All M1 oils are not grp 3.
True, not that is really matters a lot in the final new mix and especially in the mix of used oil.
Once you run a high PAO oil in a gasoline engine, it has been exposed to the same contaminants itis a mix of combustion by products, fuel and other contamination to.making all that purity a bit funny.
I have seen pure PAO work forever in heavy HVAC fan systems and sealed gear boxes but..
IC engines are a game of resisting the effects of contamination. Sometimes the add pack may be a better influence on outcomes than the difference between group III and IV base oils as a portion of the mix.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
As already mentioned, it’s the end results that count, not necessarily the ingredients. Don’t fall into the mindset that if some is good then more must be better. There are a number of components that do not show up on SDS that can make or break a oil. Also, the SDS should be taken with a grain of salt as percentages vary and formulations are changing all the time.
Not quite evidence-based logic there.
Remember, the penny-pinching oil makers use PAO. PAO is expensive. They wouldn't use PAO if it didn't benefit the final product greatly.
Also notice the evidence that the best highest-performance racing and Extended Performance oils use PAO in large percentages.
Conclusion: The experts who make oil say you need lots of PAO in there to make the stew great.
As already mentioned, it’s the end results that count, not necessarily the ingredients. Don’t fall into the mindset that if some is good then more must be better. There are a number of components that do not show up on SDS that can make or break a oil. Also, the SDS should be taken with a grain of salt as percentages vary and formulations are changing all the time.
Not quite evidence-based logic there.
Remember, the penny-pinching oil makers use PAO. PAO is expensive. They wouldn't use PAO if it didn't benefit the final product greatly.
Also notice the evidence that the best highest-performance racing and Extended Performance oils use PAO in large percentages.
Conclusion: The experts who make oil say you need lots of PAO in there to make the stew great.
Much of that is true, but we have to watch how far we take it. Someone can make a premium product just for the sake of making a premium product and charging a premium price. Not everyone needs a Rolls Royce, nor should everyone buy one, nor are enough available for everyone.
The vast majority of North American users, with moderate OCIs and ILSAC grades, will see no benefit from a majority PAO oil. Of course, for that reason, we don't see many (if any) majority PAO oils on North American shelves in ILSAC grades aiming at the service fill type market or Jiffy Lube type OCIs. You want to go 15,000 miles, then a rethink might be worthwhile.
The vast majority of North American users, with moderate OCIs and ILSAC grades, will see no benefit from a majority PAO oil. Of course, for that reason, we don't see many (if any) majority PAO oils on North American shelves in ILSAC grades aiming at the service fill type market or Jiffy Lube type OCIs. You want to go 15,000 miles, then a rethink might be worthwhile.
PAO content is a big indicator of quality in an oil. Period.
Garak, yes you've also got to assume there are tribologists and chemists who are competent at SOPUS, XOM, Amsoil, Motul, Redline, & Castrol, etc. (They are.)
That's a given.
The proof is that the oil company bean counters don't want those scientists & engineers specifying PAO.
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.
Garak, yes you've also got to assume there are tribologists and chemists who are competent at SOPUS, XOM, Amsoil, Motul, Redline, & Castrol, etc. (They are.)
That's a given.
The proof is that the oil company bean counters don't want those scientists & engineers specifying PAO.
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.
The only reliable indicator of an oil's "quality" is the list of specifications the oil meets. Trying to extrapolate base stock composition into some global quality index without regard to the tested performance is making stuff up. Period.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.
Exactly. For guys running 3000 miles on something calling for ordinary 5w-30, the last thing they really need is a PAO oil.
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.
Exactly. For guys running 3000 miles on something calling for ordinary 5w-30, the last thing they really need is a PAO oil.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.
Exactly. For guys running 3000 miles on something calling for ordinary 5w-30, the last thing they really need is a PAO oil.
How many millions of miles have been run in just conventional oils. Too many to count I think. Most vehicles do not have special oil specs. Just run the prescribed grade and go. PAO is great stuff but let’s not get obsessed over it.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
They probably ask them every day "Do we really need that PAO which is as expensive as printer ink? Can't you just use all-GroupIII and still meet 229.5, LL-14FE+, 508/509, or 'Extended Performance' goals in dexos1 oils?" Answer: No.
Exactly. For guys running 3000 miles on something calling for ordinary 5w-30, the last thing they really need is a PAO oil.
How many millions of miles have been run in just conventional oils. Too many to count I think. Most vehicles do not have special oil specs. Just run the prescribed grade and go. PAO is great stuff but let’s not get obsessed over it.
I could care less if my Oil has PAO in it. PAO is good at separation of parts but it cant clean anything at all or mix with add packs, it needs other base oils to do that.
Yes but it helps with using less additives in certain ways. PPD's, VII's etc... A half decent slug of PAO in our engines I'm sure, still gives a lot of us a nice warm feeling of confidence.
Originally Posted by madeej11
Yes but it helps with using less additives in certain ways. PPD's, VII's etc... A half decent slug of PAO in our engines I'm sure, still gives a lot of us a nice warm feeling of confidence.
It is useful in the Arctic circle. Anywear else Group III works just as well.
Yes but it helps with using less additives in certain ways. PPD's, VII's etc... A half decent slug of PAO in our engines I'm sure, still gives a lot of us a nice warm feeling of confidence.
It is useful in the Arctic circle. Anywear else Group III works just as well.
Originally Posted by Joekar
I'm starting to dig in to oil info... I looked at this site 3 years ago and people were saying PAO's aka group 4 synthetic was the good stuff... Now I reading that Penzoil Platinum Ultra and Mobile 1 extended performance are group 3. I read that these are group 3 because group 3 absorb the additive packages better and 100% PAO group 4 won't do that... So now I'm confused... What is the latest info on this as to what is the most protective and best for cars and trucks? I'm looking to always do 10,000 mile changes at the cheapest price with most protection...
For some unknown reason there is a very "large" group of people that tramp around BITOG and the pimp group 3 oils and less as if they are the bees knees. Quite frankly, I don't get it. I hope they are getting paid, then I could respect that. But to your question, [censored] YEAH it matters. By nature other group oils have better performance in the cold and heat, and every engine has it's hot spots, and when a group 3 travels through that spot, it degrades, it shears, much more then other group of oils, Why are the "lifetime" fluids pao? The decision to dumb us down and call group 3 synthetic time is coming to an end. We are seeing with the goals of this government the will have to look at the real synthetic oils. I wont spend more time discussion it because the hacks will hate on me til the sun sets, so let me leave you with a graph that explains the white paper out there. Yes you can dress up a mineral oil, but guess what, you can dress up a pao as well, lol. That is the yellow sections of the graph. Mineral oils never out perform pao if you do the same things to the pao that you did to the mineral oil to get the mineral oil to perform better. The real argument is does it matter in an engine that is forgiving when it comes to lubrication. That is the only point against top tier fluids, the downsides of the fluids have been long since solved late last century.
![[Linked Image]](https://media.noria.com/sites/Uploads/2018/3/6/6cf54096-295b-413e-af35-22104d37044a_base-oil-types-temperature-range_extra_large.jpeg "[Linked Image]")
link from machinelube
I'm starting to dig in to oil info... I looked at this site 3 years ago and people were saying PAO's aka group 4 synthetic was the good stuff... Now I reading that Penzoil Platinum Ultra and Mobile 1 extended performance are group 3. I read that these are group 3 because group 3 absorb the additive packages better and 100% PAO group 4 won't do that... So now I'm confused... What is the latest info on this as to what is the most protective and best for cars and trucks? I'm looking to always do 10,000 mile changes at the cheapest price with most protection...
For some unknown reason there is a very "large" group of people that tramp around BITOG and the pimp group 3 oils and less as if they are the bees knees. Quite frankly, I don't get it. I hope they are getting paid, then I could respect that. But to your question, [censored] YEAH it matters. By nature other group oils have better performance in the cold and heat, and every engine has it's hot spots, and when a group 3 travels through that spot, it degrades, it shears, much more then other group of oils, Why are the "lifetime" fluids pao? The decision to dumb us down and call group 3 synthetic time is coming to an end. We are seeing with the goals of this government the will have to look at the real synthetic oils. I wont spend more time discussion it because the hacks will hate on me til the sun sets, so let me leave you with a graph that explains the white paper out there. Yes you can dress up a mineral oil, but guess what, you can dress up a pao as well, lol. That is the yellow sections of the graph. Mineral oils never out perform pao if you do the same things to the pao that you did to the mineral oil to get the mineral oil to perform better. The real argument is does it matter in an engine that is forgiving when it comes to lubrication. That is the only point against top tier fluids, the downsides of the fluids have been long since solved late last century.
link from machinelube
Why Redline chose Polyol Esters and PAO for their base oil? There ye go, picture worth a thousand words. PAO the best possible protection against the cold, polyol esters the best possible protection against heat. I think I will go off what machinelube says on the issue compared to some random "oil guys" off the net. Just say'n
Most additives, especially vii's are temporary protection. Whereas the nature of the pao will protect you as the graph's green section shows. Use a group 3, say you are in love with it because your granddad and his granddad used it whatever. But if you are one to take interest in the science, there are way better places to look then a chat room. White paper section here is pretty good too.
Originally Posted by burla
Why Redline chose Polyol Esters and PAO for their base oil? There ye go, picture worth a thousand words. PAO the best possible protection against the cold, polyol esters the best possible protection against heat. I think I will go off what machinelube says on the issue compared to some random "oil guys" off the net. Just say'n
Well once you can prove Redline which is a very small player in the game and really isn't pushing the envelope in the lubricant world is using primarly PAO and diester at least a few of your claims could be validated. But redline will not even publish what their 90% "various synthetic basestock" is.
Why Redline chose Polyol Esters and PAO for their base oil? There ye go, picture worth a thousand words. PAO the best possible protection against the cold, polyol esters the best possible protection against heat. I think I will go off what machinelube says on the issue compared to some random "oil guys" off the net. Just say'n
Well once you can prove Redline which is a very small player in the game and really isn't pushing the envelope in the lubricant world is using primarly PAO and diester at least a few of your claims could be validated. But redline will not even publish what their 90% "various synthetic basestock" is.
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Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Why Redline chose Polyol Esters and PAO for their base oil? There ye go, picture worth a thousand words. PAO the best possible protection against the cold, polyol esters the best possible protection against heat. I think I will go off what machinelube says on the issue compared to some random "oil guys" off the net. Just say'n
Well once you can prove Redline which is a very small player in the game and really isn't pushing the envelope in the lubricant world is using primarly PAO and diester at least a few of your claims could be validated. But redline will not even publish what their 90% "various synthetic basestock" is.
Not long ago their MSDS showed something like 90% PAO.
Originally Posted by burla
Why Redline chose Polyol Esters and PAO for their base oil? There ye go, picture worth a thousand words. PAO the best possible protection against the cold, polyol esters the best possible protection against heat. I think I will go off what machinelube says on the issue compared to some random "oil guys" off the net. Just say'n
Well once you can prove Redline which is a very small player in the game and really isn't pushing the envelope in the lubricant world is using primarly PAO and diester at least a few of your claims could be validated. But redline will not even publish what their 90% "various synthetic basestock" is.
Not long ago their MSDS showed something like 90% PAO.
Originally Posted by kschachn
The only reliable indicator of an oil's "quality" is the list of specifications the oil meets. Trying to extrapolate base stock composition into some global quality index without regard to the tested performance is making stuff up. Period.
+1
The only reliable indicator of an oil's "quality" is the list of specifications the oil meets. Trying to extrapolate base stock composition into some global quality index without regard to the tested performance is making stuff up. Period.
+1
Who cares what the base oils are, it's how it performs and the additives have a lot to do with that today. Ultimately time will tell whether or not it was up to the task. In the meantime UOA's can provide some evidence but it's not the full picture.
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Nope. I shop by spec. If I get a PAO oil, it's because it meets a spec I wanted for a priced point I couldn't pass. If a grp 3 oil does the same I buy that one if it meets the specs and is priced less.
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