Dodge "muscle strategy" versus Chevy/Ford?

[Win]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Me,I'm definitely a turbo guy. There's nothing like the turbos suddenly kicking in and the boost throwing you back into the seat.


I had a small displacement turbo car during the first turbo craze of the '80's. They were mostly under powered without the boost, so it felt pretty dramatic when the turbo spooled up. And for a second or two, if you timed it right, you could show taillights to cars that would ordinarily leave you in the dust. Maybe that was the origin of the infamous ricer flyby, although mine was a Ford.

That kind of boost, progressively controlled, on top of an engine that was never under powered to start with, like a modern pushrod V8 with advanced engine controls, seems to me to be the very best of all worlds.

The cam phasing on my (wife's) little Jaguar V8 is pretty aggressive and gives that same kind of pushback when you stomp on it, but it is much more pleasant to drive because the engine is never underpowered in normal driving, and the car is all aluminum, so it's lightweight.

Out of all the engines I've had, and I feel like I've had ( and have ) some nice ones ( and some real barking dogs ), the GM Powertrain LS1 was, hands down, the very best. All other things being equal, I prefer a normally aspirated engine to a boosted engine. There's just less to fail. I don't see any downside to that.

But everybody has a different itch. And we are lucky that there are a multitude of highly reliable, powerful, modern engines of all types to scratch it.

So I guess I don's see anything wrong with the mopar way of doing things. I wish they would hire a stylist, though ....

 

[LoneRanger]

I was such a nerd in the 80's that I wanted an '86 Mustang SVO (4 cyl turbo), or an '86 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (same engine as the SVO I think). I also had a weird liking of the '86 Mitsubishi Starion turbo which I think might also have worn Dodge badging as the Laser? Most of it was because I was both a car enthusiast (but w/ low money) and a sci-fi nerd. Totally fell for the "futuristic" theme of their marketing campaigns and was the first time digital displays started showing up in the instrument panels.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: donnyj08


Also many here may not be aware that the pentestar shares DNA with the Mercedes Benz 3.5L which is used in many of MB high end SUVs and E series cars.

FCA also produced the dart as a multi air turbo car before we were seeing small ecoboost cars.



And wasn't FCA's newest non-Fiat 4 cylinder engine a joint project between the former DaimlerChrysler, Mitsubishi and Hyundai? I know Mopar's 5-speed auto was more or less a tweaked Mercedes 5G-Tronic that was built in the USA.

It felt like Daimler did give Chrysler some new technology, but the overlords in Stuttgart didn't want to water down the Mercedes brand.


I'm sure I could find it in 5 minutes of google, but I'm lazy. As far as I know, it's the same as the engine that came in the FCA products (2.0/4 in caliber/patriot/compass/sebring/200) with a different head design.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Meanwhile, they all get smoked off the line by an electric car w/ a 337 mile range.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2017/2017-tesla-model-s-p100d-first-test-review/



But the Tesla can't do both. What the Tesla has going for it in the 0-60 sprint, is all wheel drive, traction due to it's high curb weight, and full torque from zero RPM that helps it briefly overcome that curb weight disadvantage. If you use the 'ludicrous' mode, you will dramatically decrease the range available on the charge. Use it repeatedly, combined with their 'supercharger' recharging, and you will decrease the capacity and life of the battery.

My neighbor was anxious to show me his Tesla in 'Ludicrous' mode. It's impressive for a 5000 lb car. It ruined his day when I beat him with my (his words) "crotch rocket".

I think a Tesla Model S/X PxxD/P100D racing anything is silly. Unless Toyota makes a hybrid variant of a Lexus F car or if it's against a PHEV Porsche/LaFerrari with KERS or a Bugatti Veyron/Chiron off the line. But then again, Tesla proved an electric car can be as much of an hotrod as a muscle car.

A old school acquaintance picked me up in a Chevy Spark EV. I thought nothing cool about it. It's a Daewoo after all. And then he turns off the traction control and mashes it. That little thing was able to chirp the tires and throw us into the seats. The Prius would have had the same acceleration as a regular Camry, but Toyota neutered it in the interest of efficiency - it's even slower than the Scion xA/xB/xD and the Yaris which used similar engines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Meanwhile, they all get smoked off the line by an electric car w/ a 337 mile range.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2017/2017-tesla-model-s-p100d-first-test-review/



That's roughly the same as the Demon, which I noticed they left out of that comparo..... And the Demon would smoke it in the 1/4.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I have no excuse for Chevy and them giving up on the SS.


They didn't sell. We had one on the lot for about a full year. Not enough hardcore Chevy RWD sedan people willing to spend the money over buying a '90s Impala, Caprice or Roadmaster with an LT1 and building it up. Enthusiast cars are never all about profit, but there does come a point where the original manufacturer gives up.


What GM should've done is made the SS/Caprice available to retail customers and just dropped the FWD big bloated Impala. GM actually got ANGRY when a Chevy dealer DARED sell a (fleet-only) Caprice to a retail customer. It's as if they've never seen a Charger or 300 on the road. Where have they BEEN the last 10 years?

 

[VNTS]

Originally Posted By: Ammofirst
More HP is great however I think Sergio should just release the following statement : We really don't have much to offer except these 2004 vintage machines well past their expiration date. Please enjoy the tire smoking until we can deliver some fresh product : Sergio out.


except they were refreshed at least 3 times with new engines, transmissions, sheet metal, suspensions, electronics and interior. not counting the new special models

anyone saying they are the same as the original 05 300 hasnt been paying attention.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I was such a nerd in the 80's that I wanted an '86 Mustang SVO (4 cyl turbo), or an '86 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (same engine as the SVO I think). I also had a weird liking of the '86 Mitsubishi Starion turbo which I think might also have worn Dodge badging as the Laser? Most of it was because I was both a car enthusiast (but w/ low money) and a sci-fi nerd. Totally fell for the "futuristic" theme of their marketing campaigns and was the first time digital displays started showing up in the instrument panels.

 

[dlundblad]

I wasn't expecting Jackie Chan the first time I watched that movie.

 

[bbhero]

I don't know about that.. A video on here just a bit ago had a guy with a Tesla which had some weight dropped and it outran everything it faced that night in a 1/4 on the street. Nitrous, turbo, whatever and it out 60 footed them, and beat them all by a good margin all the way through the big end.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
I don't know about that.. A video on here just a bit ago had a guy with a Tesla which had some weight dropped and it outran everything it faced that night in a 1/4 on the street. Nitrous, turbo, whatever and it out 60 footed them, and beat them all by a good margin all the way through the big end.


I commented in that thread and watched the video. Perhaps go read my comments? It is pretty easy to destroy everything when you are the only car with traction.

But in case you can't be bothered, I'll quote myself here:

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


The P90D, with Ludicrous Mode has, with a good driver, in factory stripper config, run high 10's, with the best run being a 10.8 according to Road and Track:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/...d-quarter-mile/

The P100D, which was the car featured in the video, has, under ideal circumstances with a massive generator charging it between runs, run a 10.7 @ 122Mph:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a31313/tesla-model-s-p100d-quarter-mile-world-record/


Is it fast? Yes. Are there faster cars? Also yes. A stock HellCat runs a comparable ET on decent street-legal rubber, however since we are talking "records" here, a stock HellCat has run a best of 10.56 @ 130Mph:
https://www.torquenews.com/106/new-hellcat-dodge-stock-power-14-mile-record-set-michigan

The new Demon runs in the 9's off the showroom floor @ 140Mph, and there are plenty of modified Fox bodies, LSx cars and the like that are faster.

 

[wtd]

I would love to own one of the new Dodge Muscle cars. My next car probably will be a 6.4L Challenger. My 14 Mustang GT is still pretty stout in stock trim and satisfies me for the time being.

I do not like turbo's and will not own a vehicle with them. Just my preference.

Wayne

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
It's what you do when you have nothing. They have pretty much no tech and little R&D budget to do new tech as FCA is strapped.
Do they have anything good in the pipeline? Doubtful.


They actually have decent engines available, but they are keeping the tech in their premium marks, like Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo.
They could very easily bring those twin turbo V-6 and V-8 engines over to the rest of the corporation if they wanted, but they are not.
And even the base turbo I-4 in the Alfa Romeo Giulia is a good engine. 280 hp and 306 lbs-ft of torque from a 2.0 engine.
And don't forget that they also have the 1.75 I-4 that is in the Alfa 4C. 237 hp 258 lbs-ft.

Not to mention the chassis technology from all those new cars and suv's that Alfa and Maserati have.
But nope, strip the American brands is the better choice.

BC.

 

[Andrew1972]

The strategy of dodge is find what you got and tweak so it can sell trying to incur least cost and making immediate profit. No long term strategy in the lineup for years....

It works so well with some of their products and others like Chrysler 200, Dodge Journey and dodge compass just terrible. Terrible when compared to competitors and maybe hope there is they won’t cross shop or buyers coming from something worst.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: itguy08
It's what you do when you have nothing. They have pretty much no tech and little R&D budget to do new tech as FCA is strapped.
Do they have anything good in the pipeline? Doubtful.


They actually have decent engines available, but they are keeping the tech in their premium marks, like Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo.
They could very easily bring those twin turbo V-6 and V-8 engines over to the rest of the corporation if they wanted, but they are not.
And even the base turbo I-4 in the Alfa Romeo Giulia is a good engine. 280 hp and 306 lbs-ft of torque from a 2.0 engine.
And don't forget that they also have the 1.75 I-4 that is in the Alfa 4C. 237 hp 258 lbs-ft.

Not to mention the chassis technology from all those new cars and suv's that Alfa and Maserati have.
But nope, strip the American brands is the better choice.

BC.


Most of the people I know that buy the Chargers, and Challengers, remember the originals. They want the big naturally aspirated V8. A turbo 4 cylinder, even if it is making comparable power to the NA V8, will never sound or feel like the V8. That sound and feel is what sells those cars. That these new cars are much better driving cars than the originals, is just another reason they sell.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: madRiver
Terrible when compared to competitors and maybe hope there is they won’t cross shop or buyers coming from something worst.

I feel like FCA/DCX/ChryCo did build cars like those to bring butts into the seats of dealerships, build something cheap and sell it at a loss. For the uninformed, they're stoked to get a new car at the price of used no matter how it was built. If you're someone with subprime credit, would you buy a new Dodge Journey on a 72-84 month car note(or drive for Uber/Lyft and have the payment partly subsidized) or buy a used CR-V/RAV4 at a BHPH lot? You're still jacked no matter what.

Their mainline cars have been rental/government fleet darlings even though the K-Cars saved the original Chrysler from doom. It was almost always a safe bet that if you rented a car in the past or if you got a company car, it was a Chrysler product.

 

[Silverado12]

I've always had good service from Chrysler. Ford has been the worst. IMO GM and Chrysler are good products as a whole.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: wtd
I would love to own one of the new Dodge Muscle cars. My next car probably will be a 6.4L Challenger. My 14 Mustang GT is still pretty stout in stock trim and satisfies me for the time being.

I do not like turbo's and will not own a vehicle with them. Just my preference.

Wayne


My stock 17 wrx @ 268hp feels faster than the 17 mustang gt I just test drove. I wanted to love it being a traditional V8 RWD guy... I used to make fun of "fake" turbo power until I bought one. Boost is ridiculous fun and takes skill to master (timing it right).

I had a 16 Challenger Scat Pack for moment, loved the raw power, hated just about everything else (too heavy, NO visibility, questionable reliability, thin sheet metal, god awful mpg, lousy interior and radio)

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: babyivan

My stock 17 wrx @ 268hp feels faster than the 17 mustang gt I just test drove. I wanted to love it being a traditional V8 RWD guy... I used to make fun of "fake" turbo power until I bought one. Boost is ridiculous fun and takes skill to master (timing it right).



But it isn't.

Stock GT are in the 12's. The WRX is a 13.60 at 100mph car with a good driver. Most guys are running 13.90 to 13.70.

Your WRX is better matched to my Caprice.

The new Pony cars are quick and put together in such away that you don't get the sensation of going fast in some of them.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Originally Posted By: babyivan

My stock 17 wrx @ 268hp feels faster than the 17 mustang gt I just test drove. I wanted to love it being a traditional V8 RWD guy... I used to make fun of "fake" turbo power until I bought one. Boost is ridiculous fun and takes skill to master (timing it right).



But it isn't.

Stock GT are in the 12's. The WRX is a 13.60 at 100mph car with a good driver. Most guys are running 13.90 to 13.70.

Your WRX is better matched to my Caprice.

The new Pony cars are quick and put together in such away that you don't get the sensation of going fast in some of them.


No argument there, I know the GT is faster. I'm going by feel, which is much more important to me as a daily driver since I'm not doing 1/4 drag races at the track.

"Feel" is why Miatas can get away with meager hp numbers.

The Mustang gt felt boring and heavy to me. Even though the Challenger scat pack was even heavier than the stang, it at least felt fast as f##k. I bet a large part of that feeling was due to the aggressive 3.90 rear axle ratio. The gt I tested had the optional 3.55, not as good as the perf pack, but not as lame as a base gt.