Delo 15W40 8,070 miles Honda ST1100

[TimVipond]

I'm not sure what more I can say. I've replaced two low mileage clutches due to slippage when I used non JASO oils. I've had other clutches I've saved when the non JASO oil started to slip and I replaced with JASO oils. I've had fellow riders who said they thought their clutches were slipping, found out they did not use JASO oils, replaced with JASO oils and the clutches quit slipping. I've had other riders that didn't realize their clutches were slipping using non JASO oils, switched to JASO oil, and voila they found more immediate response in their motorcycles as soon has they twist the throttle, instead of a rise in RPM then followed by acceleration.

AFAIK, all the wet clutch motorcycles manufactured since 1998 all list JASO MA or MB oil to be used. The cost is the same as other oils that are not JASO, so why not use it? There are JASO MA oils available for $1.98 if price is an issue. I've tried lots of JASO and non JASO oils in my motorcycles and my friends have too, and we know which work best for our bikes. That is the most important criteria.

 

[Norm Olt]

Great post, Jaybird! Note that much of the JASO MA (etc.) testing has to do with FRICTION CHARACTERISTICS and SHEAR STABILITY.

xW-30 oils require less shear stability than xW-40 & xW-50 oils. It makes sense to me.

As far as other oils (oils that are not JASO MA rated) are concerned it also makes sense that there are some who meet the necessary physical criteria but are just not rated nor advertized as such...

I've used (am using) Chevron Supreme 20W-50 in my ZX-11D and I can assure you that the clutch does not slip.

Cheers!

 

[cos]

Well master 'Busa and Bandit builder Brock Davis recommends M1 5W30 and many of his "followers" run it, as do many 1200 Bandit owners, with no clutch slippage or any other problems. I tired a qt of M1 mixed with a qt of Pennzoil dino 20W50 in my SV650 last season - it worked great and provided butter smooth shifts.

Tim, I find it strange that you've had clutch probs with 15W40. Rotella T is hughely popular on most MC forums for good reason. I've run 15W40 Rotella in all my bikes and never had any slippage.

 

[TimVipond]

Cos - I ran Rotella SB and others have reported similar problems with clutch slippage with this product. A mechanic friend of mine no longer runs Mobil 1 (it was the 40 or 50 wt) in his stock Bandit due to clutch slippage. He switched to a JASO MA motorcycle oil and his slippage stopped. When someone complains of clutch slippage, one of the first questions my mechanic asks is what oil they are running. Usually it is not a motorcycle specific oil. There may or may not have been problems with the CI4 oils and now they are going with CJ4 oils, and we don't know how that will affect motorcycle wet clutches and transmissions. I think certain motorcycles are more sensitive to clutch slippage. If they have weaker springs they will be more sensitive than those that were manufactured or aftermarketed with stronger springs. The problem is with frequent formulation changes with the truck and car oils we just don't know what all the effects could be on motorcycles. What worked yesterday may not work tomorrow. Why take the chance?

 

[Jaybird]

Tim, I have heard hundreds of anecdotes like the ones you describe. But in every instance where I actually got the chance to be involved with a forensic investigation of the problem, it was always attributed to one of the components being out of spec. Weak springs, blued plates, basket problem, etc...
I can honestly say that I have never actually seen evidence of an oil actually being the cause of a clutch problem.

Sure, using a differnt oil may well bring the problem to the forefront, but it was there to begin with and was only made worse with a slightly differing frictional fluid.
Although there are always those who will continue to argue the problem was oil related, until the micrometer comes out and shows that a part(s) was out of spec. to begin with.
At that juncture it is hard to argue the point.

My main point is that you went out of your way to warn folks of this dreaded elusive clutch slip, and you may well be convinced of it being a big issue. But others, probably hundreds of thousands of others, have found over the years that the oil is far less accountable for issues than the sky is falling, don't use EC oils, crowd would have us think.

I take the chance because there is no firm evidence that there is even a risk involved. Only hearsay and anecdotes that can't be verified.
If these oils were indeed a problem, don't you think we would hear it from the mountain tops by those who have actually went against the conventional wisdom warnings and tried these oils? Seems that every time we hear a warning about these oils, we hear about a rider using them with absolutely no issues, rather than riders backing up the warnings.
Somebody has to be wrong.

 

[TimVipond]

Jaybird - Since you disagree with what the motorcycle owners manuals, oil manufacturers, and JASO recommend for motorcycle oils, why don't you post a list of "Jaybird Approved" engine oils for motorcycles with wet clutches and shared transmissions. That we we will know for sure that no problems will be encountered. Be sure to provide a parts and labor warranty should your recommendation cause problems. Make sure your list is very specific as far as brand name, viscosity, API ratings and update your list every time there is a formualtion change.

 

[Mackelroy]

These additive analyzes tell nothing about the base oil, energy saving oils have no more molly than some non energy saving oils. But you dont know the chemical make up of the base oil with regards to polymers and such, and that can cause slipping depending on the clutch sensitivity.

are MB oils slicker than MA oils(absolutely), are there people who've ran MB oils without clutch slippage? Probably, but They'll get away with it till they dont.

Ive never had flat out clutch failure slipping with any oil, but have had mild slippage issues with marginal oil without the frictional characteristics for wet clutch.

I immediately switched back to known good wetclutch oil eliminating the issue.

 

[Jaybird]

Quote:

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are MB oils slicker than MA oils(absolutely)

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Although this may be the perception that folks get, the fact is that a JASO MB certified oil may not actually be slicker than another with JASO MA certification.

According to the latest JASO T-903:2006, there are three frictional tests conducted; Dynamic Friction, Static Friction, and Stop Time Index.
The tested fluid can be well within the margins for MA, MA1, or MA2 in two of the procedures, yet fall just fractionally into the MB range in just one of the tests, and the fluid must then be considered an MB fluid.

With that criteria, it is completely possible that one MA(x) rated fluid could indeed be slicker than another rated MB.

 

[Mackelroy]

My point being, running MB oil does not have the frictional characteristics FOR WET CLUTCH, might get away with it for a while though, till slippage begins.

You wont get flat out (no go slipping) with poor frictional oil) on a good clutch pack, it will be mild events under heavy load, such as full throttle in top gear straight up a hill.

that will test both the oil and clutch pack pretty well

I've had the experience pleasure, also ride alot

 

[Jaybird]

I think you are simply making an assumption. Not much to back up anyone claiming that MB rated fluid will cause any sort of clutch action problem.

JASO is simply a guide, and nothing more. The association gives no assurances that a clutch will not slip if any of the MA certifications are met. Nor do they claim that a clutch is comprimised by using a MB rated fluid.
The fractional differences in MA and MB fluids is not much...and like I tried to explain before, MA fluid could be more "slippery" on a clutch than a MB rated fluid.

Take for example:

Oil #1 DFI= 1.46

 

[Jaybird]

I think you are simply making an assumption. Not much to back up anyone claiming that MB rated fluid will cause any sort of clutch action problem.

JASO is simply a guide, and nothing more. The association gives no assurances that a clutch will not slip if any of the MA certifications are met. Nor do they claim that a clutch is comprimised by using a MB rated fluid.
The fractional differences in MA and MB fluids is not much...and like I tried to explain before, MA fluid could be more "slippery" on a clutch than a MB rated fluid.

Take for example:

Oil #1 DFI= 1.46 SFI= 1.16 STI= 1.90 Fluid rated MA
Oil #2 DFI= 2.49 SFI= 2.49 STI= 1.56 Fluid rated MB

It is obvious that Oil #1 is the more "slippery" of the two, yet Oil #2 only qualifies for the MB rating because of the stop time index being .01 over the threshold.

Besides the testing criteria going against conventional assumptions, the test equipment used hardly simulates real world situations.

 

[Mackelroy]

lets say your running the MB fluid and using my example, of running under full throttle conditions up large hills, and having slippage issues. would you tear down your clutch and install a new one, or ruturn to a known good clutch oil and see if it eliminates the issue.

I think in the real world I'd throw $150 on a new clutch first, rather than spend a few bucks and utilize known good clutch oil to see if it eliminates the issue.

 

[Jaybird]

Again, you are working with nothing but an assumption here.
Unfounded as well.

Folks have used just about anything you can find on the shelf, and very seldom do we ever hear of a person reporting a clutch problem. And when these issues do occur, from my experience, they are always related to a component that is out of mfg spec.

When you climb a fill in top gear, the lagging that occurs is the need to shift to a lower gear...not a clutch failure due to choice of oil.
I ride off-road quite a bit myself.

My main point is that the recommendation to use nothing but JASO rated fluids is not quite the great suggestion many feel it is.
Especially since the JASO frictional testing procedures are very disimilar to the real world of high rpm racing bikes.

Another issue that is hard for parade riders and dual sporters to grasp is the small bore racing 2T's need for clutch slip. Actually, if the 125cc racing bike is ridden correctly and to it's pullest potential, the rider is constantly slipping the clutch on purpose, allowing the engine to turn in the upper RPM ranges where the power is located. So, slip of the clutch can be a good thing. This means that recommending the least frictional fluid there is could be a bad suggestion.

Sure there are fractional differences in all fluids...but there are just not many oils you can find, including PSMO's, UEO's, ATF's, or boutique fluids, that will actually cause a problem with a wet clutch...not one that a human can detect anyway. A test apparatus may well detect a .1 difference in friction, but I challange that you can't.

 

[Mackelroy]

Again, you are working with nothing but an assumption here.
Unfounded as well.)))))))))))

No quite the opposite, but your talking hypothetical and already stated you havent seen the issue.

I Have had the practical experience, that yes certain oils with certain clutches can have slippage issues.

your determined to say that doesnt exist, so you win!

Enjoy your world LOL

 

[Mackelroy]

Folks have used just about anything you can find on the shelf, and very seldom do we ever hear of a person reporting a clutch problem. And when these issues do occur, from my experience, they are always related to a component that is out of mfg spec.

When you climb a fill in top gear, the lagging that occurs is the need to shift to a lower gear...not a clutch failure due to choice of oil.
I ride off-road quite a bit myself.)))))))))

I've used 10w40 car oils for a few decades offroad but they are dumped every few hours and never had any clutch issues.

My slipping experience was on a street related bike, the oil happened to be Redline, Id been running that brand for a few months and a few oil changes more than 5,000 mile.


It was doing very well, then about the 3rd oil change, id be running on the flat lands about 70 mph and you could feel the clutch give alitle , first I thought I'm feeling things, I just observed for a couple weeks, it wasntdrastic or anything shortly after however I was out riding and was at the base of a straight up mile long hill. I burned through the gears, when I hit top gear the feeling I had back on those flats was the same only slightly more severe, no question at that time the clutch was having mild slippage issues, as you know top gear stresses the clutch the most.
Anyway I immediately dumped that oil after getting home and installed known good clutch oil which happen to be Rotella syn 5w40. I never had any more mild slipppage issues on that hill or anywhere else.

Now I guess you could take the clutch stall time on those 2 oils , but my result showed the rotella sysn to be a much more frictional clutch friendly oil than the redline.

it either works or it doesnt, but I easily solved the issue with a known good clutch oil I had experience with, the redline was a new test oil.

 

[richard612]

In the past, I've been responsible for the care and feeding of a CBR600F4, a ZR-7, and a KLR650. None of these bikes have EVER seen a DROP of JASO-certified oil and the factory original clutches are still going strong.

I contend that using a specialty lubricant to ensure adequate clutch holding torque is a band-aid for an engineering problem. FYI, Bandits are known for having marginal clutches. Better to fix the stupid clutch in the first place.

 

[Mackelroy]

Mine wasnt a bandit, but a klx 400 which has no clutch enginering issues, but its performance was back to expectation after removing the redline, and installing the 5w40 Rotella syn which is not jaso spec'd but is flawless in wet clutch application.

had the change not corrected the issue, I would have went after the clutch imediately. But it was not necessary after removal of the redline.

could I have beefed up the clutch to utilize the redline. yes but it was a nice clutch, stiffening the pull would not be my first choice.

 

[BMWR1150GS]

Quote:

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Some motorcycle manufacturers came out with service bulletings (BMW was one) that prohibited the use of API SJ oils as they did not meet wet clutch and transmission requirements.

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BMW is somewhat notorious for making such recommendations. They promote their BMW brand fluids (which are very high priced) relentlessly.

Truth is that there was only 1 BMW model that I know of that had a wet clutch in 1999, the F series..the rest were all either the brick motor, an inline, water-cooled cylinder arrangement laid on its side or the boxer air-cooled twin. Both these designs utilize a dry clutch. Many BMW owners routinely use Mobil 1 15W-50 auto oil in their BMWs with success. I do. There is nothing magical about the BMW engine designs that would require SG rated oils...they are rather "automotive" in design and operation....fuel injected, CAT exhaust with lambda sensor, dry, automotive style clutch mounted on the crankshaft behind the engine, self contained transmission built by Getrag, again in direct line with the dry clutch and the driveshaft and ring and pinion final drive design.

From what I have heard, the clutch slip thing from using auto oils is overblown. I read posts about one fellow who used oils with high ZDDP levels in his wet clutch and had to remove the clutch plates and use sandpaper on them. They were not worn, just coated with zinc from the ZDDP. He reinstalled it without further incident.

 

[Master ACiD]

true that. ive been running valvoline maxlife in my bmw bower cup without problems.

 

[BMWR1150GS]

Quote:

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true that. ive been running valvoline maxlife in my bmw bower cup without problems.

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Truth be known, the BMW boxer engine is a glorified lawnmower engine.......rugged and not temperamental and it does NOT have a highly specialized oil diet with magic additives and Hexametamoondust.

Most motorcycle riders are fanatical about the correct oil to use. Just follow the vis and grade recommendations…….magical fluids with additives whose names I can hardly pronounce are not needed.