[Cut Open] Honda 15400-PLM-A02 (Fram) - Virgin

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Let us look at the media/end cap assembly - the media is glued to the end caps, the end caps completely cover the ends of the pleats. once you seal the center holes in the end caps (which is what the ADBV and leaf do) the flow of oil is fixed. Oil cannot pass from dirty to clean side any way but by being filtered through the media. The center tube is irrelevant to the path of the oil from dirty to clean.


Exactly, and that's the point I was trying to make by saying if you totally removed the center tube, AND the hole in the end cap was sealed well - as shown by the 360 degree sealing ring impression - then there's no path for dirty oil to get past the media. All the ends of the pleats are glued to the end cap. It would be no different than a cartridge filter element with no center tube and with both ends sealed up, ensuring all dirty oil goes through the media.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Let us look at the media/end cap assembly - the media is glued to the end caps, the end caps completely cover the ends of the pleats. once you seal the center holes in the end caps (which is what the ADBV and leaf do) the flow of oil is fixed. Oil cannot pass from dirty to clean side any way but by being filtered through the media. The center tube is irrelevant to the path of the oil from dirty to clean.


Exactly, and that's the point I was trying to make by saying if you totally removed the center tube, AND the hole in the end cap was sealed well - as shown by the 360 degree sealing ring impression - then there's no path for dirty oil to get past the media. All the ends of the pleats are glued to the end cap. It would be no different than a cartridge filter element with no center tube and with both ends sealed up, ensuring all dirty oil goes through the media.


Correct - that’s what I have been trying to get at

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Sayjac
So your conclusion is that, assuming that 12 o'clock opening is present even during an oci it is 'not' directly exposed to the dirty side of the filter. Have to agree to disagree. If that opening would be there during an oci, dirty oil would be bypassing through that opening and not through the media first, at that point. Further you are saying the opening is designed to be that way? No, not possible in this design.


How can that gap you reference pass dirty oil if the end cap it totally sealed as indicated by the 360 deg seal impression from the leaf spring? You do realize all the pleat ends are glued to the underside of the end cap. You could totally remove the center tube and not change anything about the oil flow path or sealing of the end cap.


Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Quote:
….the media is glued to the end caps, the end caps completely cover the ends of the pleats.

That is a true statement. However, that has no effect on the opening at 12 o'clock which is central to, inside the clean side of the pleats.


How can dirty oil get past an end cap that is totally sealed on the bottom side with all the pleats glued to it, and then also sealed 100% around the center tube hole on the outside of the end cap?

Now, IF the end cap deforms and that 360 deg seal is broken and caused a gap between the end cap and leaf spring sealing area, then there can be dirty oil bypassing at that point. But that's not what we are talking about here.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
IMO in a fiber end cap filter like this, seeing an impression on the gasket felt is misleading.


The impression in the end cap material shows there was some pressure and resulting conformity between the parts going on. Probably seals just a well or better than a metal-to-metal seal like a lot of filters have.

I think Fram used a felt seal on the Ultra end cap on the leaf spring side to give it a better seal than just an unsealed metal-to-metal interface.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
You could totally remove the center tube and not change anything about the oil flow path or sealing of the end cap.

Then what would the bypass/leaf spring rest on and what would form the seal. It would be just rest the media/endcap itself which would allow oil to bypass down the centertube with no seal at that point.

And the 360/100% seal is irrelevant if the opening 'just as pictured' at 12 o'clock is directly exposed to the dirty side which is what the OP earlier posited when he said it didn't matter even if it was open and exposed as a matter of course, not even during the oci.

That said, as a wise member recently said in this sub forum, I'll agree to disagree. The discussion has gone full circle now time to move on, for me at least.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Quote:
You could totally remove the center tube and not change anything about the oil flow path or sealing of the end cap.
Then what would the bypass/leaf spring rest on and what would form the seal. It would be just rest the media/endcap itself which would allow oil to bypass down the centertube with no seal at that point.


The leaf spring rests on the end cap with some spring force, that's what makes the seal impression in the material - that is the sealing mechanism - it's not dependent on the center tube as long as the seal is 360/100%. Just like the photo goodtimes is locked onto with the big gap between the center tube end and the end cap - the leaf spring is still sealing and made a sealing impression in the material - the photo clearly showed the sealing ring in the end cap was 100%. The pleats are strong enough to take the leaf spring pressure without deforming or collapsing as long as the pleat spacing is decent, and especially if the center tube fits relatively tight up against the pleats in the radial direction.

Originally Posted By: Sayjac
And the 360/100% seal is irrelevant if the opening 'just as pictured' at 12 o'clock is directly exposed to the dirty side which is what the OP earlier posited when he said it didn't matter even if it was open and exposed as a matter of course, not even during the oci.


I'm really trying to understand what you're seeing. The 360 deg/100% sealing ring is totally relevant - that's the only place the dirty oil could get by if that seal isn't 100% around the end cap hole. The center tube 'gap' you're referencing is not a path that dirty oil can pass through if that 360 deg seal is 100%. All the ends of the pleats are glued and totally sealed on the bottom side of the end caps - how can dirty oil get past the pleats if they are all glued to the end cap and the hole seal is 360 deg/100% ?

 

[goodtimes]

"it's not dependent on the center tube as long as the seal is 360/100%. Just like the photo goodtimes is locked onto with the big gap between the center tube end and the end cap - the leaf spring is still sealing and made a sealing impression in the material - the photo clearly showed the sealing ring in the end cap was 100%. The pleats are strong enough to take the leaf spring pressure without deforming or collapsing as long as the pleat spacing is decent, and especially if the center tube fits relatively tight up against the pleats in the radial direction."

You don't need to be saying my user ID to others about what you think I am locked into or not. You are locked into never admitting you are wrong. I have admitted I am wrong many times.

You don't know the force on the gasket, how much the pleats may have already relieved. The filter is designed to press quite hard on the adbv seal through the center tube. There is no way to tell what hot oil and pressure does to the seal on the unsupported media. It is not designed that way for the tube to be cut short, so it is a defect. Imagine an EG with wide wavy pleats and that is supposed to support the spring pressure. No way it does, you have a rattler and a bypasser. It takes some pretty strong Fram potion to be blind to this defect and yet glom all over any other filter makers defects like they were an apocalypse.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
"it's not dependent on the center tube as long as the seal is 360/100%. Just like the photo goodtimes is locked onto with the big gap between the center tube end and the end cap - the leaf spring is still sealing and made a sealing impression in the material - the photo clearly showed the sealing ring in the end cap was 100%. The pleats are strong enough to take the leaf spring pressure without deforming or collapsing as long as the pleat spacing is decent, and especially if the center tube fits relatively tight up against the pleats in the radial direction."

You don't need to be saying my user ID to others about what you think I am locked into or not. You are locked into never admitting you are wrong. I have admitted I am wrong many times.

You don't know the force on the gasket, how much the pleats may have already relieved. The filter is designed to press quite hard on the adbv seal through the center tube. There is no way to tell what hot oil and pressure does to the seal on the unsupported media. It is not designed that way for the tube to be cut short, so it is a defect. Imagine an EG with wide wavy pleats and that is supposed to support the spring pressure. No way it does, you have a rattler and a bypasser. It takes some pretty strong Fram potion to be blind to this defect and yet glom all over any other filter makers defects like they were an apocalypse.


As long as any member here discusses things and gives their points of view in a thread, I will mention that viewpoint if need be. Just like you do when I make comments - the one-way glasses are still on I see. No different than quoting you and making a response to your comment. No different than if everyone in this thread was sitting in a room together talking about it. That's the whole essence of a chat board.

It's pretty clear that in the example shown with the gap between the center tube and end cap that the pleats and end cap were really not deformed anymore than if the center tube was longer. And the 360 deg seal impression was clearly seen, proving that the media can take the leaf spring pressure. If that caused a filter to "rattle" we would be hearing of such cases over and over again - there's been but a hand full in the last 5+ years reported - and no proof it was due to a short center tube. You have any examples to show where the center tube wasn't touching the end cap and the filter collapsed and caused a failure on a filter with good pleat spacing? You have the Fram drawings in front of you to see what the allowable center tube gap space is between the tube and end cap?

I already mentioned about the pleat spacing caveat and the importance of good pleat spacing, so don't grasp onto that as an excuse. It takes a logical engineering position to see this stuff, unlike some who take the brand name as a position and try to find any excuse to explain something that they don't fully grasp.

 

[WellOiled]

ZeeOSix - without drawings and specifications, I would not call the gap we see as a defect.

DuckRyder - very well done cut & post. Thank you.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
"it's not dependent on the center tube as long as the seal is 360/100%. Just like the photo goodtimes is locked onto with the big gap between the center tube end and the end cap - the leaf spring is still sealing and made a sealing impression in the material - the photo clearly showed the sealing ring in the end cap was 100%. The pleats are strong enough to take the leaf spring pressure without deforming or collapsing as long as the pleat spacing is decent, and especially if the center tube fits relatively tight up against the pleats in the radial direction."

You don't need to be saying my user ID to others about what you think I am locked into or not. You are locked into never admitting you are wrong. I have admitted I am wrong many times.

You don't know the force on the gasket, how much the pleats may have already relieved. The filter is designed to press quite hard on the adbv seal through the center tube. There is no way to tell what hot oil and pressure does to the seal on the unsupported media. It is not designed that way for the tube to be cut short, so it is a defect. Imagine an EG with wide wavy pleats and that is supposed to support the spring pressure. No way it does, you have a rattler and a bypasser. It takes some pretty strong Fram potion to be blind to this defect and yet glom all over any other filter makers defects like they were an apocalypse.


As long as any member here discusses things and gives their points of view in a thread, I will mention that viewpoint if need be. Just like you do when I make comments - the one-way glasses are still on I see. No different than quoting you and making a response to your comment. No different than if everyone in this thread was sitting in a room together talking about it. That's the whole essence of a chat board.

It's pretty clear that in the example shown with the gap between the center tube and end cap that the pleats and end cap were really not deformed anymore than if the center tube was longer. And the 360 deg seal impression was clearly seen, proving that the media can take the leaf spring pressure. If that caused a filter to "rattle" we would be hearing of such cases over and over again - there's been but a hand full in the last 5+ years reported - and no proof it was due to a short center tube. You have any examples to show where the center tube wasn't touching the end cap and the filter collapsed and caused a failure on a filter with good pleat spacing? You have the Fram drawings in front of you to see what the allowable center tube gap space is between the tube and end cap?

I already mentioned about the pleat spacing caveat and the importance of good pleat spacing, so don't grasp onto that as an excuse. It takes a logical engineering position to see this stuff, unlike some who take the brand name as a position and try to find any excuse to explain something that they don't fully grasp.


You can't admit you are wrong about anything. That's a defective Fram filter in front of your eyes.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
You can't admit you are wrong about anything. That's a defective Fram filter in front of your eyes.


It being a 'defect' is only your opinion - and I see nobody else agreeing with you. There's really nothing technical to show that it's really a 'defect' - no dozens of "rattlers" showing up every week, or cut filters showing failures that point to the center tube having a gap as the cause. Only what you think, and nothing based on any real engineering data or facts to back up the claim.

You could probably find some old cut and posts by members here that show the filter is in good shape after use, and they also have a gap between the center tube and end cap. Ask that of the C&P poster every time a fiber end filter is posted up. And I'm not talking about filters that have super wide pleat spacing that have been ran for 10K miles that caused the end cap to flex and deform ... that's a different issue due to wide pleat spacing, not center tube length.

I will say that I agree with your assessment that excess glue around the inner hole of the end caps is a concern if the end of the metal center tube can cut and dislodge that glue. It doesn't seem very common, but it can happen. So you see, I'm not biased like you think I am.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
...

DuckRyder - very well done cut & post. Thank you.


You’re welcome of course, and thank you.

I’d like it if we could keep it on a technical level... I think there is something to be learned.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
... You can't admit you are wrong about anything. That's a defective Fram filter in front of your eyes.
I claim (again) that a center tube that doesn't reach all the way to the end cap is not in itself a defect, and will not cause bypassing, barring other defects. If you can explain clearly and logically how it does, the specific path bypassing oil would take, I'll consider admitting error. Yes, the Fram in the photo with the wide pleat and warped end cap that left a gap was defective, but that's a separate problem.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Quote:
You could totally remove the center tube and not change anything about the oil flow path or sealing of the end cap.
Then what would the bypass/leaf spring rest on and what would form the seal. It would be just rest the media/endcap itself which would allow oil to bypass down the centertube with no seal at that point.


The leaf spring rests on the end cap with some spring force, that's what makes the seal impression in the material - that is the sealing mechanism - it's not dependent on the center tube as long as the seal is 360/100%. Just like the photo goodtimes is locked onto with the big gap between the center tube end and the end cap - the leaf spring is still sealing and made a sealing impression in the material - the photo clearly showed the sealing ring in the end cap was 100%. The pleats are strong enough to take the leaf spring pressure without deforming or collapsing as long as the pleat spacing is decent, and especially if the center tube fits relatively tight up against the pleats in the radial direction.

Originally Posted By: Sayjac
And the 360/100% seal is irrelevant if the opening 'just as pictured' at 12 o'clock is directly exposed to the dirty side which is what the OP earlier posited when he said it didn't matter even if it was open and exposed as a matter of course, not even during the oci.


I'm really trying to understand what you're seeing. The 360 deg/100% sealing ring is totally relevant - that's the only place the dirty oil could get by if that seal isn't 100% around the end cap hole. The center tube 'gap' you're referencing is not a path that dirty oil can pass through if that 360 deg seal is 100%. All the ends of the pleats are glued and totally sealed on the bottom side of the end caps - how can dirty oil get past the pleats if they are all glued to the end cap and the hole seal is 360 deg/100% ?


I’m really trying to understand what you are saying as well. Please try to explain it in detail.

Explain how the opening is exposed to the dirty side. Draw pictures if necessary. (I keep at the drawing pictures thing in hopes someone will have an “ah ha”.)

And being the OP, I feel compelled to say that the OP did not say that it did not matter if it was exposed to dirty oil.

What I said is that it is all the same oil. You could completely remove the center tube (and speaking only about the flow and not the support functions) the oil in the center of the media would not change. If it helps picture the center tube as 1/2 diameter - it would be covered in the same oil on both sides just as it is when it is full diameter. The media and the end caps are the separation point.


Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
... You can't admit you are wrong about anything. That's a defective Fram filter in front of your eyes.
I claim (again) that a center tube that doesn't reach all the way to the end cap is not in itself a defect, and will not cause bypassing, barring other defects. If you can explain clearly and logically how it does, the specific path bypassing oil would take, I'll consider admitting error. Yes, the Fram in the photo with the wide pleat and warped end cap that left a gap was defective, but that’s a separate problem.


I agree.