Corvette C6 Z06 oil for road racing/street

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: jlvink
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But is that Redline a dual purpose oil or just a race oil? All that phosporus and moly make me think it's a race oil. I'd probably drain it out after coming home from track use if I intended to do street driving.

I think I would just get the revised oil tank, and use 5/10-30 SM or maybe the 0-40 if you want a little thicker oil since you wanted a dual purpose oil.


The oil I listed was Redline's street 5W-40. I already have the larger dry sump tank. If I go with a 3,000 mile OCI, would I really have to worry about the additives?

John


I don't know if you would have to worry about the race level additives like the moly for prolonged street use. If Redline claims it's a dual purpose oil then you would have to depend on their claim. If you have one of the larger tanks with revised and improved baffling, then maybe you have no oil starvation issues to worry about? I think oil starvation being fixed is the number one issue, then maybe oil temp and viscosity and more zddp after that. It's not something I can really say if too much additives might be a problem over time. If Redline says it is suitable as a street oil, then I can't say it's not. I just think if it were me, I'd just make sure I had an oil tank that was proven to prevent starvation and use some type of SM oil.

 

[mechanicx]

But what do you think about the 300 degree oil temperature with 10W30? I personally think this car should've came with an oil-to-water oil cooler, but I doubt one could be added easily now.

 

[priler]

Originally Posted By: jlvink
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you're going with Red Line, why not 10w-40?


The properties for both above 40C were very similar, so I thought I might as well have a little more start-up protection between 0C and 40C.

****************Redline 5W-40******Redline 10W-40

40 deg C cSt*********94*****************93
100 deg C cSt********15*****************15
150 Deg C HTHS*****4.6****************4.7
Phosphorous********1,300**************1370
Zinc******************1,700**************1350
Moly*******************700****************700
TBN******************10.8****************8.6

John



did you confirm these numbers buy talking directly to redline or buy studying VOA? be aware that i think redline just recently practically eliminated moly from it's 5w-40 and 15w-40...possibly something to do with lowering ash to meet an approval(not sure). for this reason,i'm actually now considering changing to there 10w-40 on my next OC but i'm not through thinking and deciding. where exactly did you get those numbers?

don't worry about using these on the street,there made for that.

 

[jlvink]

Originally Posted By: priler
Originally Posted By: jlvink
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you're going with Red Line, why not 10w-40?


The properties for both above 40C were very similar, so I thought I might as well have a little more start-up protection between 0C and 40C.

****************Redline 5W-40******Redline 10W-40

40 deg C cSt*********94*****************93
100 deg C cSt********15*****************15
150 Deg C HTHS*****4.6****************4.7
Phosphorous********1,300**************1370
Zinc******************1,700**************1350
Moly*******************700****************700
TBN******************10.8****************8.6

John



did you confirm these numbers buy talking directly to redline or buy studying VOA? be aware that i think redline just recently practically eliminated moly from it's 5w-40 and 15w-40...possibly something to do with lowering ash to meet an approval(not sure). for this reason,i'm actually now considering changing to there 10w-40 on my next OC but i'm not through thinking and deciding. where exactly did you get those numbers?

don't worry about using these on the street,there made for that.


I used recent VOA's. Here is one for Redline 10W-40; http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1539713&an=1

Here is one for the Redline 5W-40. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1465711&an=1

If you think either of these are old formulas and that they have been changed, I sure would like to know.

Thanks,
John

 

[pavelow]

GM tested the [censored] out of the Z06 at Nürburgring. Same goes for all of their performance vehicles released in the last 5-6 years.

 

[jlvink]

Originally Posted By: pavelow
GM tested the [censored] out of the Z06 at Nürburgring. Same goes for all of their performance vehicles released in the last 5-6 years.


Yea, that is why a bunch of us Z06 owners are wondering why they didn't catch the dry sump problem. Supposedly it was because with stock tires you can't pull the same G's through corners. Overall this is not a new issue for Corvettes in that a lot of LS-3 road racers use an Accusump to help keep the pressure up through those hi-G corners. But you would have expected with the new Z06 that if GM bothered with putting in a dry sump, why not get it right?

John

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: pavelow
GM tested the [censored] out of the Z06 at Nürburgring. Same goes for all of their performance vehicles released in the last 5-6 years.


I spoke to a GM engineer that was involved in the development and testing of GM engines and I really think Mobil 1 is all you really need. They really like the oil and have had great success with it. They do a A LOT of testing with Mobil 1.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: buster
I spoke to a GM engineer that was involved in the development and testing of GM engines and I really think Mobil 1 is all you really need. They really like the oil and have had great success with it. They do a A LOT of testing with Mobil 1.

Are you suggesting the factory grade as well, or the brand in general?

 

[buster]

Yes, factory retail grade Mobil 1 5w-30. They test with Mobil 1 quite a bit. According to this guy, Mobil 1 has "no wear issues at all. Period."

He also said the engine condition at teardown is the gold standard. They run endurance engines and base all the conclusions regarding durability and performance of the various parts based on condition at end of test teardown. Oil Analysis is a limited tool.

 

[zoomzoom]

synthetic oil has much larger operating temperature range then most people on this board think:

 

[SteveSRT8]

agreed, my car regularly goes over 300 degrees at the track and it doesn't hurt any quality synthetic. My oil analysis has always been fine even with two track days in a run.

And it is wonderful to hear all those glowing Porsche reviews, but I wonder if they track tested any of those hundreds of Boxters they sold? Hmmmm, does the fact that a full 20% of the cars required engine replacement due to issues like block porosity, intermediate shaft bearing failure, rear main bearing seal failure, etc. make anyone feel TRACK TESTED?

 

[jlvink]

Originally Posted By: buster

I spoke to a GM engineer that was involved in the development and testing of GM engines and I really think Mobil 1 is all you really need. They really like the oil and have had great success with it. They do a A LOT of testing with Mobil 1.


Buster, thanks for the info. Was the GM engineer the one who designed the Z06 dry sump? I hope he knows about the number of blown engines.

I hear what you are saying, the M1 5W-30 is a great oil. My question is; is it the best oil at 300F oil temperatures? GM has had their "head in the sand" on several serious LS-7 issues, so it is hard to know when to totally believe their party line.

John

 

[d00df00d]

Did you just use metallurgy/manufacturing defects in a narrow range of model years to try to discredit a test of oil pressure under lateral loading?

 

[d00df00d]

Moreover: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1696524#Post1696524

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
SteveSRT8 - You said this:
"And it is wonderful to hear all those glowing Porsche reviews, but I wonder if they track tested any of those hundreds of Boxters they sold? Hmmmm, does the fact that a full 20% of the cars required engine replacement due to issues like block porosity, intermediate shaft bearing failure, rear main bearing seal failure, etc. make anyone feel TRACK TESTED?"

Such statements as "facts" are often misleading or inaccurate - as yours is!

 

[1 FMF]

Originally Posted By: pavelow
If you can beat on your engine harder than this, you need to get a job as a GM engineer to up the ante. For example-one of GM's torture tests used on its ZL1 crate engines. "This engine has passed GM's 50-hour durability torture-test, where the engine is continuously run at full throttle, cycling back and forth between peak torque and peak power in 125-rpm, 10-25-millisecond increments." I'm sure their production torture tests are as brutal, if not more brutal. LOL.


so-called "torture" tests are not really torture.
what is the engine oil and coolant temps during this test?
if they are maintained at operational levels, then it's not really torture. what owners do to their cars on the street or track are often greater torture when they're running a 30 weight oil with oil temps 270+ degrees F and coolant temps > 240F, then have an idle less than 1000 rpm with 10psi or less oil pressure then put a load on the engine.

Running an engine continuously at full throttle/load with CONSTANT coolant temp of 190F and oil temps of 210F is not really torture- the HEAT is CONTROLLED and LUBRICATION IS MAINTAINED. This is no different than the millions of industrial equipment that run 24/7 which accumulate more hours in a year than your car engine ever will.

simple fact is, if the original poster with the z06/LS7 is running high coolant temps on the track and also seeing high oil temperatures, and it's no surprise given the body style and capacity of the cooling system plus if ambient temperatures are high to begin with, the car is simply going to run hot.
you either need to track on a cooler day, or add capacity to the cooling system to handle that heat. In addition, if you can't maintain optimal oil temperatures, which is around 180-200F... look at credible publications and you will see it stated that for every 10F over 190-200F oxidation doubles (or something to that affect). Not a big deal if you regularly change the oil, but higher heat reduces viscosity, and the most important property of ANY lubricating oil is viscosity! That is lubrication 101.
so the question you clowns should be asking is what is optimal viscosity?
the answer is much greater than the advertised 10 cSt of 5w-30 at 210F, that's if you want optimal bearing life. If all you care about is max horsepower and maximum fuel economy then run the lightest weight oil possible and get it as hot as possible... otherwise the general consensus that i've read is a range of 13 cSt up to around 50 cSt to maintain optimal bearing life along with minimizing parasitic loss from too thick an oil,
this is widespread among all lubrication systems if you bother to look at credible sources, here are 2 references that i can pull easily off the web otherwise you'll need to buy actual books,
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-e...ubrication.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post260489

http://www.insidersecretstohydraulics.com/oil-viscosity.html

now, assuming you're smart enough to read oil viscosity charts how far below minimum 'standards' are you when running an sae 30 motor oil at > 240F?

if you can maintain a max oil temp of < 190F then an sae-30 (0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30) would be great. When you KNOW oil temps run higher, you WILL need to run a higher viscosity oil in order to maintain a minimum viscosity at that higher operating temperature... if you care about preventing wear.

anybody ever wonder why if all the oils with weights heavier than 30 are so bad, why are they still on store shelves?

i won't bother getting into the more technical things of bearing clearances... as opposed to tolerances like everyone loves to proclaim about selecting oil (which proves they know nothing) nor government influence.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/general-maintenance-repairs/1212440-simple-question-grade-oil-use.html

 

[pavelow]

I'm sorry, but 50 hours at WOT is indeed torture, no matter which way you try to slice it. If you don't believe me, put whatever vehicle you own up on jackstands, put it into neutral and then drop a brick on the gas pedal and come back in 50 hours and see what's what. lmao. I'm being somewhat sarcastic but still, those tests are no joke.

As for the oiling issues being seen in the LS7, well, don't you think GM would've seen this during all of their testing? It would've most likely shown up at their desert proving grounds. They use and abuse those test vehicles worse than thugs with stolen cars. Especially the models with highend, premium engines. Anyways, the only complaint I have about the LS7 is about the [censored] hypereutectic pistons GM put in them....all that engineering and they couldn't put forged pistons in....but that was probably a deterrent to keep blowers and turbos off of them. lol

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: pavelow
Anyways, the only complaint I have about the LS7 is about the [censored] hypereutectic pistons GM put in them....all that engineering and they couldn't put forged pistons in

Just a quick correction: Hypereutectic just refers to the alloy. It's not a process like forging is.

Forged pistons expand and shrink more as temperature changes, which can affect all sorts of things including emissions and blow-by on startup. This might be one reason they weren't used.

 

[pavelow]

Yeah, but hypereutectic pistons are actually a piston classification. You have cast, hyper and forged. I don't like hypers because they are brittle.

GM put forged pistons into the LS9 and Ford ran them in the 03-04 Cobras and well as the GT(40 wannabe). All are boosted, premium applications. I'd venture to say they weren't used in the LS7 due to cost more than anything else, but they are also a deterrent to make somebody think twice about increasing cylinder psi via their preferred method of either N20, blower or turbo(s). From a gearheads' perspective, that was a foolish move on GM's part when you consider what the LS7 is all about per se. But the warranty writers, bean counters, and lawyers got their say in. lol. As for cost, did they think that a perspective Z06 buyer would balk at another couple hundred bucks (if that) added to the already pricy sticker if they had tossed forged pistons in it? [censored] no.

 

[d00df00d]

Hypereutectic alloys retain their characteristics much more stably as heat increases. They're pretty popular in high performance NA apps. BMW's M engines have been using them for years with some of the highest piston speeds and specific outputs ever to hit the road.

People always see features as "better" or "worse". If a "better" feature isn't on a car, they assume it's because of cost cutting or deliberate crippling of the product. It isn't always that simple.