John- Go to "technical and white papers" section and look For "An Overview of Esters in Synthetic Lubricants"by Tom NJ. Very good article. It will give you an understanding of Esters. Good place to start!
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Corvette C6 Z06 oil for road racing/street
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So this means that the Amsoil Dominator line will not degrade at high temps as readily as their normal diester additive oils?
John
John
If you can beat on your engine harder than this, you need to get a job as a GM engineer to up the ante. For example-one of GM's torture tests used on its ZL1 crate engines. "This engine has passed GM's 50-hour durability torture-test, where the engine is continuously run at full throttle, cycling back and forth between peak torque and peak power in 125-rpm, 10-25-millisecond increments." I'm sure their production torture tests are as brutal, if not more brutal. LOL.
Originally Posted By: pavelow
If you can beat on your engine harder than this, you need to get a job as a GM engineer to up the ante. For example-one of GM's torture tests used on its ZL1 crate engines. "This engine has passed GM's 50-hour durability torture-test, where the engine is continuously run at full throttle, cycling back and forth between peak torque and peak power in 125-rpm, 10-25-millisecond increments." I'm sure their production torture tests are as brutal, if not more brutal. LOL.
However brutal these tests are; the effects of G loading, both laterally and under braking are not taken into account when you race an engine on a dyno(perhaps Porsche does!)
If you can beat on your engine harder than this, you need to get a job as a GM engineer to up the ante. For example-one of GM's torture tests used on its ZL1 crate engines. "This engine has passed GM's 50-hour durability torture-test, where the engine is continuously run at full throttle, cycling back and forth between peak torque and peak power in 125-rpm, 10-25-millisecond increments." I'm sure their production torture tests are as brutal, if not more brutal. LOL.
However brutal these tests are; the effects of G loading, both laterally and under braking are not taken into account when you race an engine on a dyno(perhaps Porsche does!)
Originally Posted By: sidney004
(perhaps Porsche does!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iWayU
Wouldn't be shocked if GM did similar, though. At the very least they must do a LOT of track testing.
(perhaps Porsche does!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iWayU
Wouldn't be shocked if GM did similar, though. At the very least they must do a LOT of track testing.
John- As I do not use amsoils racing oils and have nothing constructive to say about them, I will let Gary or Pablo field this one. In my opinion, if you consider the strengths of POE (redline, Motul) there really is no need to consider a diester.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: sidney004
(perhaps Porsche does!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iWayU
Wouldn't be shocked if GM did similar, though. At the very least they must do a LOT of track testing.
If GM tests their oiling systems the way Porsche does, the results don't reflect it:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2323798-oil-starvation-on-track-hard-data.html
Those are great videos, no wonder the only time I see a Porsche towed off the track, it ran out of gas!
Originally Posted By: sidney004
(perhaps Porsche does!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iWayU
Wouldn't be shocked if GM did similar, though. At the very least they must do a LOT of track testing.
If GM tests their oiling systems the way Porsche does, the results don't reflect it:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2323798-oil-starvation-on-track-hard-data.html
Those are great videos, no wonder the only time I see a Porsche towed off the track, it ran out of gas!
Originally Posted By: sidney004
If GM tests their oiling systems the way Porsche does, the results don't reflect it:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2323798-oil-starvation-on-track-hard-data.html
Ouch. Wonder what GM has to say about that.
Has anyone blown an engine that way?
Originally Posted By: sidney004
Those are great videos, no wonder the only time I see a Porsche towed off the track, it ran out of gas!
Indeed. They don't mess around.
If GM tests their oiling systems the way Porsche does, the results don't reflect it:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2323798-oil-starvation-on-track-hard-data.html
Ouch. Wonder what GM has to say about that.
Has anyone blown an engine that way?
Originally Posted By: sidney004
Those are great videos, no wonder the only time I see a Porsche towed off the track, it ran out of gas!
Indeed. They don't mess around.
Originally Posted By: jlvink
Buster, what is the trade-off for POE vs. diester based oils?
John
POE's have better high temperature stability and are better for high rpm racing conditions. This is why Redline chose to use optimized POE's for their oils.
Diesters are also less expensive. Diesters have great solvency though too.
Buster, what is the trade-off for POE vs. diester based oils?
John
POE's have better high temperature stability and are better for high rpm racing conditions. This is why Redline chose to use optimized POE's for their oils.
Diesters are also less expensive. Diesters have great solvency though too.
The guy that posted the oil starvation thread is the racing buddy that I mentioned in one of my other posts. We race at the same tracks. I increased the size of my dry sump because of his data collection. The long term fix is a more baffled aftermarket pan and an additional scavenging pump.
The Porsche videos of their gyro motor tester are impressive. If you put that gyro on the end of a big centrifuge arm you would be able to simulate a race track. But I would bet that if GM had done the same kind of tests, they would have modified their dry sump design for the LS-7. The GT-2 and GT-3 Porsches are some of my main competition. They are great cars and I enjoy eating most of them up at the track. The only Porsches that I see towed off the track have hit crash walls.
The Porsche videos of their gyro motor tester are impressive. If you put that gyro on the end of a big centrifuge arm you would be able to simulate a race track. But I would bet that if GM had done the same kind of tests, they would have modified their dry sump design for the LS-7. The GT-2 and GT-3 Porsches are some of my main competition. They are great cars and I enjoy eating most of them up at the track. The only Porsches that I see towed off the track have hit crash walls.
Yes, a number of people have blown LS-7s while road racing. It does not appear to be a sudden one-time catastrophic event, but an accumulated (a few thousand miles) main bearing wear problem. Long sweeping turns, especially left-handers, appear to be the culprit causing oil starvation for very brief periods.
I wonder if a high ZDDP oil would help in these situations.
John
I wonder if a high ZDDP oil would help in these situations.
John
I think I've settled on an oil for my application. Thanks everyone for a lot of useful info. I have listed some of the key parameters below for my stock oil (Mobil 1 5W-30) and the two oils that I narrowed it down to, Mobil 1 0W-40 and Redline 5W-40. If I can find the Redline at a reasonable price I'm going to go with it. If not, I'll use the M1 0W-40.
******************M1 5W-30*****M1 0W-40*****Redline 5W-40
40 deg C cSt*********65************78*************94
100 deg C cSt*******11************14*************15
150 Deg C HTHS****3.1***********3.7************4.6
Phosphorous********800**********1,000**********1,300
Zinc******************900**********1,100**********1,700
Moly******************80*************85************700
TBN*******************?*************11.3***********10.8
I like the higher ZDDP and Moly of the Redline. Also very critical is the improved HTHS at 150C.
John
******************M1 5W-30*****M1 0W-40*****Redline 5W-40
40 deg C cSt*********65************78*************94
100 deg C cSt*******11************14*************15
150 Deg C HTHS****3.1***********3.7************4.6
Phosphorous********800**********1,000**********1,300
Zinc******************900**********1,100**********1,700
Moly******************80*************85************700
TBN*******************?*************11.3***********10.8
I like the higher ZDDP and Moly of the Redline. Also very critical is the improved HTHS at 150C.
John
But is that Redline a dual purpose oil or just a race oil? All that phosporus and moly make me think it's a race oil. I'd probably drain it out after coming home from track use if I intended to do street driving.
I think I would just get the revised oil tank, and use 5/10-30 SM or maybe the 0-40 if you want a little thicker oil since you wanted a dual purpose oil.
I think I would just get the revised oil tank, and use 5/10-30 SM or maybe the 0-40 if you want a little thicker oil since you wanted a dual purpose oil.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But is that Redline a dual purpose oil or just a race oil? All that phosporus and moly make me think it's a race oil. I'd probably drain it out after coming home from track use if I intended to do street driving.
I think I would just get the revised oil tank, and use 5/10-30 SM or maybe the 0-40 if you want a little thicker oil since you wanted a dual purpose oil.
The oil I listed was Redline's street 5W-40. I already have the larger dry sump tank. If I go with a 3,000 mile OCI, would I really have to worry about the additives?
John
But is that Redline a dual purpose oil or just a race oil? All that phosporus and moly make me think it's a race oil. I'd probably drain it out after coming home from track use if I intended to do street driving.
I think I would just get the revised oil tank, and use 5/10-30 SM or maybe the 0-40 if you want a little thicker oil since you wanted a dual purpose oil.
The oil I listed was Redline's street 5W-40. I already have the larger dry sump tank. If I go with a 3,000 mile OCI, would I really have to worry about the additives?
John
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you're going with Red Line, why not 10w-40?
The properties for both above 40C were very similar, so I thought I might as well have a little more start-up protection between 0C and 40C.
****************Redline 5W-40******Redline 10W-40
40 deg C cSt*********94*****************93
100 deg C cSt********15*****************15
150 Deg C HTHS*****4.6****************4.7
Phosphorous********1,300**************1370
Zinc******************1,700**************1350
Moly*******************700****************700
TBN******************10.8****************8.6
John
If you're going with Red Line, why not 10w-40?
The properties for both above 40C were very similar, so I thought I might as well have a little more start-up protection between 0C and 40C.
****************Redline 5W-40******Redline 10W-40
40 deg C cSt*********94*****************93
100 deg C cSt********15*****************15
150 Deg C HTHS*****4.6****************4.7
Phosphorous********1,300**************1370
Zinc******************1,700**************1350
Moly*******************700****************700
TBN******************10.8****************8.6
John
Originally Posted By: buster
Redline 0w40 has a HT/HS of 4.0.
I listed the Redline 5W40.
Originally Posted By: buster
I think Redline 5w-30 is all you would need in this engine.
Synpower 5w40 is another good option if you can find it.
I have not seen Synpower 5w-40 around here and I have not heard of any people running it on the track. Not to say that it isn't a good oil. If not Redline, I would lean towards the M1 0W-40.
John
Redline 0w40 has a HT/HS of 4.0.
I listed the Redline 5W40.
Originally Posted By: buster
I think Redline 5w-30 is all you would need in this engine.
Synpower 5w40 is another good option if you can find it.
I have not seen Synpower 5w-40 around here and I have not heard of any people running it on the track. Not to say that it isn't a good oil. If not Redline, I would lean towards the M1 0W-40.
John
I would start with Redline 10W30 and see how that does. Redline 10W30 would be my first choice then I would try their 5W40. I doubt you will need to go any higher then 10W30 though. If the oil does not shear much or at all you do not need to start with a thick oil.If you where not taking it to the track I would recomend M1 0W40 but I doubt it would take the abuse of track use maybe Delvac-1 though in 5W40.
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