Chinese influence in our backyard

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosm...-not-trade-war-is-chinas-biggest-problem

Well, if this article is right, China's "unofficial" debt to GDP ratio may be as high as 300%. That tends to tame worries of China being enough of an economic juggernaut to globally project military force in the same manner as the USA.

"Data suggest that China's total debt surpassed 300 percent (of GDP) in Q3 2018: robust foreign demand for Chinese bonds and the authorities' efforts to support domestic activity have all contributed to this sharp debt buildup,"

Reference:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-debt-iif-idUSKCN1NJ2IT
 
We went on a cruise last week as well. Grand Turks, St Thomas, Dominican Republic, etc. We took a cab around the Grand Turks and almost everything
but the main Marguiritaville area was devastated from the hurricanes and tsunami's. I noticed a lot of the buildings were boarded up and the cab driver said people
come and go but that island was really poor and the only income was tourist trade. These islands are dangerous if you get too far out. As far as the Chinese being involved they can have it for all I care. I feel sorry for the people that live in these places because they are basically poverty stricken for the most part. I notices there were a lot of Chinese knock off bikes as well as the new and old Honda Cub's.
 
Originally Posted by DejaVue
Many people have a "Magic Dirt" romanticist theory about such things. That anyone, from any country, from any culture, no matter how dissimilar, just needs to step one foot on western civilization soil and they're going to magically and easily give up their old values and culture.
Diversity is our strength!
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Of course, why is it any of our business which countries China invests their money in, and why do we think of these independent countries as our "backyard".


A more appropriate way to think of these places, is our soft underbelly. Why do you think we cared so much about the Middle East during WW2?

Same goes for us and South America.
 
Originally Posted by doitmyself
The U.S. has been a super power for less than 150 years, a mere drop in the ocean of time. History has shown many power shifts over the centuries. The writing is on the wall.


The USA has about 4.3% of the worlds population and a density of 93 people per square mile.

While we remain uniquely innovative and prosperous, we cannot compete on the same scale as giants like China, they have at least a 4.5 times larger population and are flush with cash.

If we are not careful, I suspect we will follow in England's footsteps and be reduced to a post industrial civilization. There are too many parallels to ignore. I think the Brit's are down to one aircraft carrier and near zero aircraft manufacturing. The loss of "means of production" has a wide array of consequences that are invisible to most.

In WW-II we could produce ships faster than they could be sunk. Today, we can make a few ships per year, as we do not produce, recycle or manufacture the materials in sufficient quantities. Nor do we employ the latest in manufacturing techniques.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by doitmyself
The U.S. has been a super power for less than 150 years, a mere drop in the ocean of time. History has shown many power shifts over the centuries. The writing is on the wall.


The USA has about 4.3% of the worlds population and a density of 93 people per square mile.

While we remain uniquely innovative and prosperous, we cannot compete on the same scale as giants like China, they have at least a 4.5 times larger population and are flush with cash.

If we are not careful, I suspect we will follow in England's footsteps and be reduced to a post industrial civilization. There are too many parallels to ignore. I think the Brit's are down to one aircraft carrier and near zero aircraft manufacturing. The loss of "means of production" has a wide array of consequences that are invisible to most.

In WW-II we could produce ships faster than they could be sunk. Today, we can make a few ships per year, as we do not produce, recycle or manufacture the materials in sufficient quantities. Nor do we employ the latest in manufacturing techniques.


I wouldn't draw a parallel between us and the Brits. We're able to rely to a large extent on our own resources, instead of historically relying on our conquests' resources.

Not sure if you knew this, but we've been re-teaching the UK how to build subs. They forgot how.
 
Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by DejaVue
Many people have a "Magic Dirt" romanticist theory about such things. That anyone, from any country, from any culture, no matter how dissimilar, just needs to step one foot on western civilization soil and they're going to magically and easily give up their old values and culture.
Diversity is our strength!
lol.gif



I don't recall reading about that requirement in the constitution.

Originally Posted by Cujet
The USA has about 4.3% of the worlds population and a density of 93 people per square mile.

While we remain uniquely innovative and prosperous, we cannot compete on the same scale as giants like China, they have at least a 4.5 times larger population and are flush with cash.

If we are not careful, I suspect we will follow in England's footsteps and be reduced to a post industrial civilization. There are too many parallels to ignore. I think the Brit's are down to one aircraft carrier and near zero aircraft manufacturing. The loss of "means of production" has a wide array of consequences that are invisible to most.


One of the strengths of the US was the ability to attract the best and the brightest in the world. One of the pillars of wealth is land, labor, capital and entrepreneurship. It's easier to get rich with smart people.

Keep in mind that when Germany started it's pogroms against Jewish people, the best and brightest flocked to the US. If that hadn't happened, Germany would have developed the bomb first as all the major players involved were German physicists who led the world at that time. After the war, it turned out they weren't even close.
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
The Chinese were in the US back in the 1850's building the railroads and during the gold rush.
If it weren't for the Chinese exclusion act, the number of people from China could be a lot higher in this country.

How many of the people from China in 1850 were American citizens and could vote? Probably zero.

Though that statement of mine is itself somewhat immaterial. If 100 million people from China immigrated to America right now, whether done legally or not, whether they can vote or not, there'd be a lot more talk about "Chinese influence" than merely talking about China putting advertising or a naval base on some island.

So much concern about external foreign influence, while ignoring that on the phone Americans already have to press "2" for English.
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by DejaVue
Many people have a "Magic Dirt" romanticist theory about such things. That anyone, from any country, from any culture, no matter how dissimilar, just needs to step one foot on western civilization soil and they're going to magically and easily give up their old values and culture.
Diversity is our strength!
lol.gif



I don't recall reading about that requirement in the constitution.

Originally Posted by Cujet
The USA has about 4.3% of the worlds population and a density of 93 people per square mile.

While we remain uniquely innovative and prosperous, we cannot compete on the same scale as giants like China, they have at least a 4.5 times larger population and are flush with cash.

If we are not careful, I suspect we will follow in England's footsteps and be reduced to a post industrial civilization. There are too many parallels to ignore. I think the Brit's are down to one aircraft carrier and near zero aircraft manufacturing. The loss of "means of production" has a wide array of consequences that are invisible to most.


One of the strengths of the US was the ability to attract the best and the brightest in the world. One of the pillars of wealth is land, labor, capital and entrepreneurship. It's easier to get rich with smart people.

Keep in mind that when Germany started it's pogroms against Jewish people, the best and brightest flocked to the US. If that hadn't happened, Germany would have developed the bomb first as all the major players involved were German physicists who led the world at that time. After the war, it turned out they weren't even close.


They were doing very well with rocket propulsion technology, though, of which we ALSO benefited after the war, if I'm not mistaken.
 
Originally Posted by DejaVue
Originally Posted by Wolf359
The Chinese were in the US back in the 1850's building the railroads and during the gold rush.
If it weren't for the Chinese exclusion act, the number of people from China could be a lot higher in this country.

How many of the people from China in 1850 were American citizens and could vote? Probably zero.

Though that statement of mine is itself somewhat immaterial. If 100 million people from China immigrated to America right now, whether done legally or not, whether they can vote or not, there'd be a lot more talk about "Chinese influence" than merely talking about China putting advertising or a naval base on some island.

So much concern about external foreign influence, while ignoring that on the phone Americans already have to press "2" for English.



I think the laws at the time were different. Even women couldn't vote.

But this should answer some of your questions.

http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/collec...he-united-states-1884-1944/timeline.html
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by DejaVue
Many people have a "Magic Dirt" romanticist theory about such things. That anyone, from any country, from any culture, no matter how dissimilar, just needs to step one foot on western civilization soil and they're going to magically and easily give up their old values and culture.
Diversity is our strength!
lol.gif



I don't recall reading about that requirement in the constitution.


That's a Canadian dig at our current moron-in-chief, a Laurentian elite who is currently embroiled in the self-inflicted "LavScam". He also "admired the basic Chinese dictatorship", told us "the budget would balance itself" and that he was going to "grow the economy from the heart out". There are myriad statements which he's made that were designed to be progressive taglines but ultimately just ended up being vapid virtue signalling or downright stupid statements.
 
Originally Posted by Leo99
I agree with you. Not understanding how Chinese owned resorts in the Caribbean translates to shift in geographical military advantage.



Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
We went on a cruise last week as well. Grand Turks, St Thomas, Dominican Republic, etc. We took a cab around the Grand Turks and almost everything
but the main Marguiritaville area was devastated from the hurricanes and tsunami's. I noticed a lot of the buildings were boarded up and the cab driver said people
come and go but that island was really poor and the only income was tourist trade. These islands are dangerous if you get too far out. As far as the Chinese being involved they can have it for all I care. I feel sorry for the people that live in these places because they are basically poverty stricken for the most part. I notices there were a lot of Chinese knock off bikes as well as the new and old Honda Cub's.


These are what stands out in the thread here.

When Carribean is just a 3rd world vacation spot we are fine with it. When Puerto Rico, our territory with our citizen, got destroyed by hurricane we just abandon them. Now Chinese is investing and we see that in our bargain vacation we call them "hostile".

1.5M home, should I say, is nothing compare to the local buyers' income (how about $300k income per bread earner). I've been working for 18 years and I can easily own 2 of those 1.5M home, no need for Chinese money sending over here. It has been this expensive since the mid 90s when the tech boom started.

Think of the Carribean's people, they are human too. They are not just your vacation spots and they are not your servants. It is rude to call another country your backyard
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Originally Posted by Leo99
I agree with you. Not understanding how Chinese owned resorts in the Caribbean translates to shift in geographical military advantage.



Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
We went on a cruise last week as well. Grand Turks, St Thomas, Dominican Republic, etc. We took a cab around the Grand Turks and almost everything
but the main Marguiritaville area was devastated from the hurricanes and tsunami's. I noticed a lot of the buildings were boarded up and the cab driver said people
come and go but that island was really poor and the only income was tourist trade. These islands are dangerous if you get too far out. As far as the Chinese being involved they can have it for all I care. I feel sorry for the people that live in these places because they are basically poverty stricken for the most part. I notices there were a lot of Chinese knock off bikes as well as the new and old Honda Cub's.


These are what stands out in the thread here.


When Carribean is just a 3rd world vacation spot we are fine with it. When Puerto Rico, our territory with our citizen, got destroyed by hurricane we just abandon them. Now Chinese is investing and we see that in our bargain vacation we call them "hostile".

1.5M home, should I say, is nothing compare to the local buyers' income (how about $300k income per bread earner). I've been working for 18 years and I can easily own 2 of those 1.5M home, no need for Chinese money sending over here. It has been this expensive since the mid 90s when the tech boom started.

Think of the Carribean's people, they are human too. They are not just your vacation spots and they are not your servants. It is rude to call another country your backyard


Geographically, the Caribbean is our back yard. To note this simple reality is in no way disrespectful of anyone.
I posted that we as a nation need to devote some diplomatic effort as well as some dollars toward assisting these small island nations and territories. To do otherwise is to invite the same from nations that don not share our interests.
We began our vacation with a couple of days in Old San Juan where we left a fair amount of money. Old San Juan looks as good as ever and all credit goes to the locals who did most of the work with very limited help from our shared federal government. We stayed at a lovely small hotel located maybe two hundred yards off the beach about midway between San Cristobal and El Morro. There are many nice small hotels throughout San Juan.
In contrast to the people of Puerto Rico, the people in the USVI who received proportionately far more assistance are still crying about their damage.
We should be taking care of our poorer neighbors and cultivating good relations with them. To neglect them only paves the way for the assertion of influence by powers who seek to displace us from our national position in the world.
WRT the bargain vacation crack, for what we spent in nine days including the flights, we could have vacationed anywhere in Europe or most of Asia. This was a very nice winter getaway, but it was by no means cheap.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Originally Posted by Leo99
I agree with you. Not understanding how Chinese owned resorts in the Caribbean translates to shift in geographical military advantage.



Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
We went on a cruise last week as well. Grand Turks, St Thomas, Dominican Republic, etc. We took a cab around the Grand Turks and almost everything
but the main Marguiritaville area was devastated from the hurricanes and tsunami's. I noticed a lot of the buildings were boarded up and the cab driver said people
come and go but that island was really poor and the only income was tourist trade. These islands are dangerous if you get too far out. As far as the Chinese being involved they can have it for all I care. I feel sorry for the people that live in these places because they are basically poverty stricken for the most part. I notices there were a lot of Chinese knock off bikes as well as the new and old Honda Cub's.


These are what stands out in the thread here.


When Carribean is just a 3rd world vacation spot we are fine with it. When Puerto Rico, our territory with our citizen, got destroyed by hurricane we just abandon them. Now Chinese is investing and we see that in our bargain vacation we call them "hostile".

1.5M home, should I say, is nothing compare to the local buyers' income (how about $300k income per bread earner). I've been working for 18 years and I can easily own 2 of those 1.5M home, no need for Chinese money sending over here. It has been this expensive since the mid 90s when the tech boom started.

Think of the Carribean's people, they are human too. They are not just your vacation spots and they are not your servants. It is rude to call another country your backyard


Geographically, the Caribbean is our back yard. To note this simple reality is in no way disrespectful of anyone.
I posted that we as a nation need to devote some diplomatic effort as well as some dollars toward assisting these small island nations and territories. To do otherwise is to invite the same from nations that don not share our interests.
We began our vacation with a couple of days in Old San Juan where we left a fair amount of money. Old San Juan looks as good as ever and all credit goes to the locals who did most of the work with very limited help from our shared federal government. We stayed at a lovely small hotel located maybe two hundred yards off the beach about midway between San Cristobal and El Morro. There are many nice small hotels throughout San Juan.
In contrast to the people of Puerto Rico, the people in the USVI who received proportionately far more assistance are still crying about their damage.
We should be taking care of our poorer neighbors and cultivating good relations with them. To neglect them only paves the way for the assertion of influence by powers who seek to displace us from our national position in the world.
WRT the bargain vacation crack, for what we spent in nine days including the flights, we could have vacationed anywhere in Europe or most of Asia. This was a very nice winter getaway, but it was by no means cheap.



"Natural position in the world."

What does that mean?
 
Originally Posted by Leo99
Originally Posted by fdcg27
national position in the world.



"Natural position in the world."

What does that mean?



......
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Leo99
Originally Posted by fdcg27
national position in the world.



"Natural position in the world."

What does that mean?



......



Thanks. That makes a bit more sense.
 
Originally Posted by maxdustington
The west has been weakening significantly this century. I don't think we'll ever see Chinese cultural hegemony like the west in the 20th century, no one really likes China just their money. A lot of those banana republics have leaders who don't care about their citizens but just want to get rich.

In terms of military strength, volunteers will always fight harder than conscripts. How long do you think conscripts will fight for socialism in the 21st century? Why hasn't China just invaded Taiwan yet? There's a reason they use hard power instead of military force, they have a huge army but never use it because it sucks.


That really is a foolish argument. I have no knowledge about the Chinese military. But looking at history most hard battles , mostly defensive. Have bin fought by drafted forces.
 
While I agree with what Vikas is saying, I don't want to continue on that point. He made it perfectly clear.

That said, the US will do just fine. The US won't be able to do 'my way or the highway' anymore to the extent it was done in the 20th century but overall, we won't be affected too much. If anyone really wants to know the reason why many countries, esp those do not have arm twisting power diplomatically, don't trust the US, they should read Globalization and Its Discontents Its fascinating to read how diplomacy by the way of money works and why many countries feel taken advantage of.

China will fall to the same story because China gives so much loan to the countries that it knows they will not be able to repay and then they start arm twisting them. Like they did in SriLanka. Now biggest Sri Lankan port is on lease to the Chinese for 99 years. Do you think they will leave after that? China is doing the same in Africa.

What I feel bad about, our politicians are 'still' not awake and policies are being made on oligarchy principles. So in the end, China and the US will get bitten but for different reasons, and the effects will probably be different.
 
Originally Posted by MoneyJohn
While I agree with what Vikas is saying, I don't want to continue on that point. He made it perfectly clear.

That said, the US will do just fine. The US won't be able to do 'my way or the highway' anymore to the extent it was done in the 20th century but overall, we won't be affected too much. If anyone really wants to know the reason why many countries, esp those do not have arm twisting power diplomatically, don't trust the US, they should read Globalization and Its Discontents Its fascinating to read how diplomacy by the way of money works and why many countries feel taken advantage of.

China will fall to the same story because China gives so much loan to the countries that it knows they will not be able to repay and then they start arm twisting them. Like they did in SriLanka. Now biggest Sri Lankan port is on lease to the Chinese for 99 years. Do you think they will leave after that? China is doing the same in Africa.

What I feel bad about, our politicians are 'still' not awake and policies are being made on oligarchy principles. So in the end, China and the US will get bitten but for different reasons, and the effects will probably be different.


Well the US still has a lease on Guantanamo Bay even after the Cuban revolution. The US is still the world's reserve currency. There was thoughts that maybe it would be the Euro or Yen or there was even Chinese hope that it'd be the Yuan. But none of that has come to pass yet.
 
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