Chevy heavy duty gas engine needs upgrade

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Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by A_Harman
Agree. When the duty cycle changes to heavy duty, the engine design has to get conservative. I wouldn't want an aluminum block engine in a heavy duty pickup. I'd bet the 6.0 iron block can put out more power longer, under more severe conditions than the 6.2 L86.
I would, aluminum blocks are strong enough for race engines and high rpm use but not enough to lug a truck and trailer around below 5k rpm? If this were the case, aluminum blocks would be notorious for blowing up. I don't believe aluminum engine block durability is an issue in the 21st century, but I am not a metallurgist or automotive engineer. An aluminum block would be something cool to market, and a probable class exclusive.



The duty cycle is different in say 1/4 mile tracking my Trans Am with an aluminum block LS based motor, then say running up Vantage in 100 degree heat at 4200 to 5500 RPM for 10 to 15 minutes lugging 15,000 lbs total..

Like I said earlier it is the reason why big number, low ET LS cars are generally Iron block engines.. I have been messing with LS engines since they came out in 97. I had a 1998 Z28 new and have had at least two LS motors in my driveway a at time since. The Aluminum engines are really good but long term lots of hauling, towing high rpms for long periods of time or high hp low et cars it a no brainer to go to the iron block.


The 6.0 has a poo cam and poo heads. The change the Cam and heads and easily get 400hp out if with no change to the block or reliability.
 
6.0 is a hard worker. Our oldest truck went half a million miles at full GVWR every single day! Used to work 2 shifts per day.

Currently driving one with 200k miles and over 4000 hours of stationary operation. These engines are tough and long lasting.

People should note the duty cycle comments above as our 1995 vans got 185hp 5.7's when the light duties got 220! Think about that, there's always a reason for it.
 
I would imagine that 45-50% of that 64% of gassers are fleet trucks.
Fleets typically are budgeted would avoid the upfront cost of the diesels and the additional maintence/ emmisions related repair expenses.
 
Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by A_Harman
Agree. When the duty cycle changes to heavy duty, the engine design has to get conservative. I wouldn't want an aluminum block engine in a heavy duty pickup. I'd bet the 6.0 iron block can put out more power longer, under more severe conditions than the 6.2 L86.
I would, aluminum blocks are strong enough for race engines and high rpm use but not enough to lug a truck and trailer around below 5k rpm? If this were the case, aluminum blocks would be notorious for blowing up. I don't believe aluminum engine block durability is an issue in the 21st century, but I am not a metallurgist or automotive engineer. An aluminum block would be something cool to market, and a probable class exclusive.

Dmax is not as advanced as it was a decade ago, it needs to be sheltered. The 6.0 is the dmax's "contrast girl"
grin2.gif



It comes down to the basic fact that they teach you in sophomore material science in engineering school: Ferrous materials have an endurance limit, Aluminum alloys don't. This means that as long as the engine is designed with stresses less than the endurance limit, it will not suffer failures due to high cycle fatigue loading. An aluminum structure is designed with finite life span for the stresses that are imposed.

Cast iron has a modulus of elasticity about 80% higher than aluminum. This means that it will deflect less due to applied loads than an aluminum block of identical design (wall thicknesses).

Cast Iron maintains its strength up to 600F. Aluminum starts losing its strength at 210F. Not many aluminums can be depended upon to have worthwhile fatigue strength at temperatures over 350F. This is something to think about when considering cylinder wall temperatures at the min sections between the bores. An aluminum block in high volume production will have cast-in liners, which takes away available space for aluminum. The .065" larger bore in the 6.2 makes the situation worse. An aluminum block heavy duty engine would have a smaller bore to avoid cracking of the aluminum between the bores due to constrained thermal fatigue.
 
Rented a Ryder truck about 20 feet long, with a 5.3L. I was quite surprised at how well it carried the load across the country.
 
Originally Posted by DriveHard
I have been driving my Silverado with a 6.2L since the year after it was made, and still love it. Whenever I think about trading it in, I know I would like to upgrade to a 2500 with a gas engine. What I can't imagine is getting a larger, heavier truck with a smaller/weaker engine. When will Chevy offer a more powerful gas engine in their heavy duty line?? It makes no sense that they only offer their most powerful engine in the least capable truck!


GM could easily cast a 6.2L iron block.......But you only gain 12 cubic inches by going from a 4.00" bore to 4.065", Little to gained in a HD application!
Your L9H has to much compression (10.5:1) for use in a HD truck & requires premium fuel to realize it's full potential.....Not something most HD truck buyers will accept.

Have you driven a 6.0L (L96) HD truck? Or are you going off ratings alone?
 
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Originally Posted by maxdustington
Dmax is not as advanced as it was a decade ago, it needs to be sheltered. The 6.0 is the dmax's "contrast girl"
grin2.gif




The latest L5P is quite advanced & very different from the previous LML/LMM/LBZ/LLY/LB7 generations.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by DriveHard
I have been driving my Silverado with a 6.2L since the year after it was made, and still love it. Whenever I think about trading it in, I know I would like to upgrade to a 2500 with a gas engine. What I can't imagine is getting a larger, heavier truck with a smaller/weaker engine. When will Chevy offer a more powerful gas engine in their heavy duty line?? It makes no sense that they only offer their most powerful engine in the least capable truck!


GM could easily cast a 6.2L iron block.......But you only gain 12 cubic inches by going from a 4.00" bore to 4.065", Little to gained in a HD application!
Your L9H has to much compression (10.5:1) for use in a HD truck & requires premium fuel to realize it's full potential.....Not something most HD truck buyers will accept.

Have you driven a 6.0L (L96) HD truck? Or are you going off ratings alone?

I run the premium in old LQ4. It like it. On 87 It will pull back the timing.
The Cam is very mild in the LQ4. I don't want to mess with the truck. It is so dang reliable. Then I think of the WS6 years with heads and a cam no issue.
 
HD trucks are made primarily for the commercial sector. We like proven, simple, durable, reliable, and cost effective. 6.0 is it. Would I check the box to upgrade to an expensive aluminum 6.2? Nope.

Old 6.0 design does nicely. Nothing new to learn, nothing fancy to fix.
 
Originally Posted by ls1mike

You had to me until couldn't handle. There are some big 5th wheels out there Fuzion and Voltage come to mind. Their dry weights are all over 13000lbs with cargo they are all allowed to weigh over 16,000lbs that exceeds the towing capacity and Gross combined vehicle weight of the 6.0 gassers. The Voltage 4210 is 15,710lbs...DRY! Over double the weight of my trailer loaded!!! There is a time and place for diesel. I am at the point where my 7500lbs loaded does not warrant it.

I know guys out in the flat lands (Kansas, Oklahoma, Florida, you get the idea) towing 12,000 to 15,000lbs with my exact truck. Out west here with the big passes? I would skip it.


Mike....I'm NOT saying that you couldn't put a load on the 6.0 and wish you had more power.... But said: "Show me that you NEED more power". Big difference.

I mean, what are the chances that the OP actually has one of these HUGE 5th wheels?? He could, but show me that your truck is falling on its face.

And of course, we know that "one guy" who really needs a bigger truck with more power, it's just like likely it's the OP.

The 6.2 is a heck of an engine, but it's Tow Pig. It's a Show Mill.. That engine is great for guys who want a acceleration in a truck that's mostly unloaded or lightly loaded. It's even a decent engine for a guy pulling a 18--20' glass bass boat.
 
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Its amazing to me how many folks simply don't read the thread before they reply....

I DO NOT imply that it is a good idea to simply slam the L9H into the 2500 or 3500 truck...not saying that at all. I didn't say it was a good idea to use an aluminum block on the heavy duty trucks, and I'm not sure why people are using that as an argument (maybe it is a good idea, I simply don't know). All I am saying is that the 6.0L engine is getting old, and I think Chevy could sell a lot more trucks if they upped the hp in the heavy duty line and offered a little more tow capability with the gas engines.

Yes, I do love my L9H in my truck! I know it is high compression, and for sure not set up for the heavy duty market. I run E85 99% of the time, and don't really care about the poor mileage. If you search my past posts you would see that I do tow decent loads, including a tandem trailer setup, a 30' Formula boat with dual small blocks, and currently a 26' Glastron bowrider. Before I got my Fiat, my truck was a DD. I have driven a co-workers 2500 with a 6.0L. Maybe it has "enough" hp to get the job done, but I just don't want to "upgrade" to a slower, less powerful truck to get more payload and tow capacity.
 
Originally Posted by Phishin


And of course, we know that "one guy" who really needs a bigger truck with more power, it's just like likely it's the OP.

The 6.2 is a heck of an engine, but it's Tow Pig. It's a Show Mill.. That engine is great for guys who want a acceleration in a truck that's mostly unloaded or lightly loaded. It's even a decent engine for a guy pulling a 18--20' glass bass boat.


Not sure I am understanding your last sentence. Are you saying that the 6.2L can't tow? It is rated to have the highest tow rating of the 1500 level Chevy truck, and it has done fine for me.

Nope, I don't "need" a bigger truck...I want one, I can afford one, and I would buy one if it were offered. I would love to upgrade to a heavier duty model, but I don't want to give up the acceleration and performance of the truck I have today. To me, it seems Chevy is leaving some sales on the table by not offering a heavy duty truck powered by a gas engine with a little more hp...that is all I am saying, and the purpose of the post.
 
Black on black 2500HD High-Country with 6.0, flip the manifolds forward, weld V-bands to the manifolds. Twin 6266s, boost cam, fuel pump, injectors and HPTuners.

Some low boost pump gas magic and make that baby eat. Low boost, high reliability and plenty of power.
 
Originally Posted by DriveHard

Nope, I don't "need" a bigger truck...I want one, I can afford one, and I would buy one if it were offered. I would love to upgrade to a heavier duty model, but I don't want to give up the acceleration and performance of the truck I have today. To me, it seems Chevy is leaving some sales on the table by not offering a heavy duty truck powered by a gas engine with a little more hp...that is all I am saying, and the purpose of the post.


I agree with you. I do.

My brother is a professional fishing guide. He tows his boat with a 2017 Silverado 1500 with the Max Trailering Package (6.2L)
He had the dealer put extra leaf springs in the rear because he hates how much his truck squats when he hooks up a 21' boat to it.

He's love to buy a 2500 or 3500, but he swears by the 6.2L
He tells me all the time, he'd buy a 2500HD if it had the 6.2L

So, there are a few guys like you out there (like my brother), who will keep buying new 1500's because they come with the 6.2L

However, there are a few guys like me, who WON'T buy a 6.2L because they refuse to own a truck that shuts off cylinders and is high compression (needs premium all the time). Those are deal breakers for me.

I wish we could get a more powerful version of the 6.0....but still be iron block, low compression, and not have AFM. I don't need it. I just want it.
 
Originally Posted by Phishin
Originally Posted by DriveHard

Nope, I don't "need" a bigger truck...I want one, I can afford one, and I would buy one if it were offered. I would love to upgrade to a heavier duty model, but I don't want to give up the acceleration and performance of the truck I have today. To me, it seems Chevy is leaving some sales on the table by not offering a heavy duty truck powered by a gas engine with a little more hp...that is all I am saying, and the purpose of the post.


I agree with you. I do.

My brother is a professional fishing guide. He tows his boat with a 2017 Silverado 1500 with the Max Trailering Package (6.2L)
He had the dealer put extra leaf springs in the rear because he hates how much his truck squats when he hooks up a 21' boat to it.

He's love to buy a 2500 or 3500, but he swears by the 6.2L
He tells me all the time, he'd buy a 2500HD if it had the 6.2L

So, there are a few guys like you out there (like my brother), who will keep buying new 1500's because they come with the 6.2L

However, there are a few guys like me, who WON'T buy a 6.2L because they refuse to own a truck that shuts off cylinders and is high compression (needs premium all the time). Those are deal breakers for me.

I wish we could get a more powerful version of the 6.0....but still be iron block, low compression, and not have AFM. I don't need it. I just want it.


Actually, the version I have does not have and did not come with AFM...nor did it come with direct injection...another two reasons I can't justify "upgrading" to a newer model. I actually like the high compression because E85 is everywhere here in the middle of Iowa, and my engine seems to just love it!
 
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Nope, I don't "need" a bigger truck...I want one, I can afford one, and I would buy one if it were offered. I would love to upgrade to a heavier duty model, but I don't want to give up the acceleration and performance of the truck I have today. To me, it seems Chevy is leaving some sales on the table by not offering a heavy duty truck powered by a gas engine with a little more hp...that is all I am saying, and the purpose of the post.
They cannot because the Dmax is outdated and has not kept up with the power levels of the gas mills. They offer a comparable solvent burner and dmax sales will plummet, losing the light duty diesel market share.

Originally Posted by Phishin

I agree with you. I do.

My brother is a professional fishing guide. He tows his boat with a 2017 Silverado 1500 with the Max Trailering Package (6.2L)
He had the dealer put extra leaf springs in the rear because he hates how much his truck squats when he hooks up a 21' boat to it.

He's love to buy a 2500 or 3500, but he swears by the 6.2L
He tells me all the time, he'd buy a 2500HD if it had the 6.2L

So, there are a few guys like you out there (like my brother), who will keep buying new 1500's because they come with the 6.2L

However, there are a few guys like me, who WON'T buy a 6.2L because they refuse to own a truck that shuts off cylinders and is high compression (needs premium all the time). Those are deal breakers for me.

I wish we could get a more powerful version of the 6.0....but still be iron block, low compression, and not have AFM. I don't need it. I just want it.
Both of you should learn how to wrench and make your trucks the way you want them instead of whining about it!
 
Originally Posted by maxdustington

Both of you should learn how to wrench and make your trucks the way you want them instead of whining about it!

I'm all over it. Although, I'm not doing the wrenching. My truck is about to head to shop for a bit of an attitude adjustment.
 
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Its amazing to me how many folks simply don't read the thread before they reply....

I DO NOT imply that it is a good idea to simply slam the L9H into the 2500 or 3500 truck...not saying that at all. I didn't say it was a good idea to use an aluminum block on the heavy duty trucks, and I'm not sure why people are using that as an argument (maybe it is a good idea, I simply don't know). All I am saying is that the 6.0L engine is getting old, and I think Chevy could sell a lot more trucks if they upped the hp in the heavy duty line and offered a little more tow capability with the gas engines.

Yes, I do love my L9H in my truck! I know it is high compression, and for sure not set up for the heavy duty market. I run E85 99% of the time, and don't really care about the poor mileage. If you search my past posts you would see that I do tow decent loads, including a tandem trailer setup, a 30' Formula boat with dual small blocks, and currently a 26' Glastron bowrider. Before I got my Fiat, my truck was a DD. I have driven a co-workers 2500 with a 6.0L. Maybe it has "enough" hp to get the job done, but I just don't want to "upgrade" to a slower, less powerful truck to get more payload and tow capacity.


I'll admit that I didn't thoroughly read your opening post.

The return on investment for GM to design, build & certify a new engine for this particular segment would be what? Sure....There might be a spike in sales the first couple years but will normalize to the same levels as before.
In my opinion....They would need to spread the bore spacing out & raise the deck height to accommodate let's say a 4.125" bore & a 4.00" stroke that would yield 7.0 Litres.

GM had the L18 8.1L mated to a Allison 1000......Available for 6 years in the GMT800 platform, Made 40 more horsepower & 95 more ft lbs of torque compared to the LQ4 6.0L that was standard in 2500/3500 trucks.
The torque under the curve was outstanding & the Allison was a big leap with it's ratio's compared to the 4L80E........They couldn't hardly give them away!
GM lost a ton of money on the 8.1L even with help from Medium Duty Kodiak/Top-Kick, RV chassis & Mercury Marine sales. And it wasn't even a clean sheet design as it was based on the big block.

Ford has the 6.2L "Boss" & Dodge has the 6.4L Hemi, They both make more HP & Torque than the GM offering. Dodge has the most power but GM sold 300,000 more fullsize trucks than Dodge last year. I can't find data that breaks down 1500 vs 2500 vs 3500 & what engine was installed......
 
Originally Posted by Phishin
Originally Posted by maxdustington

Both of you should learn how to wrench and make your trucks the way you want them instead of whining about it!

I'm all over it. Although, I'm not doing the wrenching. My truck is about to head to shop for a bit of an attitude adjustment.



Ok, so you insult me and tell me I need to learn to wrench, but you yourself are paying someone else to wrench on your truck???

I have personally done the following to my truck to help it fit me...

Front end leveling kit
added leaf to rear springs
aftermarket KYB Monomax struts and shocks
true duel 3" exhaust with X-pipe
long tube headers
aftermarket rims and tires
drilled and slotted rotors front and rear
custom intake
Texas Speed performance cam
Custom tune

All of which I have installed MYSELF. My truck has only ever been to a shop for alignment work, that is it. I do use my truck to tow often, otherwise I would also have a blower on there by now. All of these mods help make my truck what I want it to be. I can't do anything else to make it as capable as a 2500 or 3500, and the add-on's and mods to make the 6.0L perform as well as my truck does today don't exist.
 
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