...allow for backward compatibility. Given that certain engines thrive on things like zinc or moly, can new specs that significantly alter an oil’s formulation, really find ways to cover the bases for older designs? If the changes are minor, then I can understand, but it seems like each new spec gets a bit more “radical” (maybe too strong a word but you get the idea).
Can the Latest Oil Spec REALLY...
- Thread starter pscholte
- Start date
- Status
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
Depends on you’re calling “older designs”. Going back 10 years or less, everything’s probably OK. But the future also has some pretty radical weights (0w16 for example) and that’s a bit disconcerting; will 0w16 be suitable for an engine that started out spec’d for 5w20? That coupled with changing chemistry makes me wonder.
Dr. A.E.Haas has run some pretty low vis oils in high end cars that clearly use high vis oils but 0w16 (or lower!) oils may rattle even his cage.
Good question that may only be answered with UOAs here on bitog.
Dr. A.E.Haas has run some pretty low vis oils in high end cars that clearly use high vis oils but 0w16 (or lower!) oils may rattle even his cage.
Good question that may only be answered with UOAs here on bitog.
Are you talking about backward compatibility with engines all the way back to the 1960s and hopped-up engines with very high contact pressures in the valvetrain?
Why not?
Won't work.
There will be a specific market with more players for older engine designs. VR-1, Joe Gibbs, Brad Penn, and the HDEO's will take all the market for the older stuff.
CJ and CK oils are already making that break point. Since diesels in fleets and off road equipment operate for decades, the oils will follow the market. As the older equipment finally wears out, the market will diminish. But it will never be gone ...
We are at the break point for lubrication. New engines and new oils going forward. Old engines and old oil formulations looking back ...
There will be a specific market with more players for older engine designs. VR-1, Joe Gibbs, Brad Penn, and the HDEO's will take all the market for the older stuff.
CJ and CK oils are already making that break point. Since diesels in fleets and off road equipment operate for decades, the oils will follow the market. As the older equipment finally wears out, the market will diminish. But it will never be gone ...
We are at the break point for lubrication. New engines and new oils going forward. Old engines and old oil formulations looking back ...
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2017
- Messages
- 312
I'm still smitten over Dexos 1, TBH, why, is that odd , off or weird? Now maybe not but what if I told you this formulation had been Dexos 1 approved since before 2010? That's some 5 odd years and then some. and Dexos 1 came out in 2015-16. Anyhoo, I need something to fight high heat and that is why the low density was good enough to pass Dexos 1.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trav
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
Ok but why are those additional additives mainly for USA market then
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
Ok but why are those additional additives mainly for USA market then
Shell does make two Classic Speific oils, an SAE 30 and 20W50 with according to them 2000ppm of Zddp.
I heard on newer vehicles "one's that don't require zinc" don't need all the additives and what's blended into your better oils - especially synthetics like, QS/Mobil/PZ/Valvoline ETC isn't needed.
That's why I wouldn't use Redline, Lucas, Amsoil or Royal Purple in my engine not that they are bad products they have more zinc than needed for the modern engine. Engines now have such tight tolerances and are broken in that I don't even think factory fill uses additives like ZZDP - Zinc. Maybe the German car manufactures do things differently.
No car manufactures recommend Redline, Lucas, amsoil or Royal Purple and I am too cheap to pay for it either.
I am probably wrong, but I am no chemist or engineer and shouldn't believe half what I read.
That's why I wouldn't use Redline, Lucas, Amsoil or Royal Purple in my engine not that they are bad products they have more zinc than needed for the modern engine. Engines now have such tight tolerances and are broken in that I don't even think factory fill uses additives like ZZDP - Zinc. Maybe the German car manufactures do things differently.
No car manufactures recommend Redline, Lucas, amsoil or Royal Purple and I am too cheap to pay for it either.
I am probably wrong, but I am no chemist or engineer and shouldn't believe half what I read.
Last edited:
Just about nothing is traditional "flat tappet" any more (small diameter rotating about their axis, with lift enhancement through rocker arms and their ratio/load multiplication), so nobody is testing for those conditions anymore, the engines tests don't reflect that anymore.
Additive levels are being driven by "normal" oil consumption rates that are ridiculous, and trying to protect emissions controls arising.
So I'm not sure, and haven't been for years about "back compatibility" to the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
Additive levels are being driven by "normal" oil consumption rates that are ridiculous, and trying to protect emissions controls arising.
So I'm not sure, and haven't been for years about "back compatibility" to the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: Trav
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
Ok but why are those additional additives mainly for USA market then
Euro xw40 oils typically has about 1100 ppm zinc and their cars have had cats since 85 with no issues so it seems to be a safe level.
Originally Posted By: Trav
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
Ok but why are those additional additives mainly for USA market then
Euro xw40 oils typically has about 1100 ppm zinc and their cars have had cats since 85 with no issues so it seems to be a safe level.
Originally Posted By: mx5miata
That's why I wouldn't use Redline, Lucas, Amsoil or Royal Purple in my engine not that they are bad products they have more zinc than needed for the modern engine. Engines now have such tight tolerances and are broken in that I don't even think factory fill uses additives like ZZDP - Zinc. Maybe the German car manufactures do things differently.
No car manufactures recommend Redline, Lucas, amsoil or Royal Purple and I am too cheap to pay for it either.
Amsoil doesn't use ZDDP in an amount that would exceed allowable limits for API SN, and Royal Purple is API SN rated.
That's why I wouldn't use Redline, Lucas, Amsoil or Royal Purple in my engine not that they are bad products they have more zinc than needed for the modern engine. Engines now have such tight tolerances and are broken in that I don't even think factory fill uses additives like ZZDP - Zinc. Maybe the German car manufactures do things differently.
No car manufactures recommend Redline, Lucas, amsoil or Royal Purple and I am too cheap to pay for it either.
Amsoil doesn't use ZDDP in an amount that would exceed allowable limits for API SN, and Royal Purple is API SN rated.
Do you all think we are someday going to see more application specific specs in the US like in Europe that will really kill universal backward compatibility (e.g. Porsche, MB, VW, Renault) or will that not be accepted by the American consumer? I kind of like the idea of lubrication designed with my engine in mind but it does complicate the marketing process. Part of my curiosity is driven by my VC turbo as I consider that a genuine departure from past designs.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: pscholte
Do you all think we are someday going to see more application specific specs in the US like in Europe (e.g. Porsche, MB, VW, Renault) or will that not be accepted by the American consumer? I kind of like the idea of lubrication designed with my engine in mind but it does complicate the marketing process. Part of my curiosity is driven by my VC turbo as I consider that a genuine departure from past designs.
Negative. Even the average DIYer changing their own oil just picks up whatever is on sale and matches the viscosity on their oil cap.
Do you all think we are someday going to see more application specific specs in the US like in Europe (e.g. Porsche, MB, VW, Renault) or will that not be accepted by the American consumer? I kind of like the idea of lubrication designed with my engine in mind but it does complicate the marketing process. Part of my curiosity is driven by my VC turbo as I consider that a genuine departure from past designs.
Negative. Even the average DIYer changing their own oil just picks up whatever is on sale and matches the viscosity on their oil cap.
Originally Posted By: Trav
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
How much does the existence of a product really mean about whether it's necessary? Aren't there a bunch of products on the market that aren't necessary or even good, but that still have huge markets?
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
How much does the existence of a product really mean about whether it's necessary? Aren't there a bunch of products on the market that aren't necessary or even good, but that still have huge markets?
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Won't work.
There will be a specific market with more players for older engine designs. VR-1, Joe Gibbs, Brad Penn, and the HDEO's will take all the market for the older stuff.
CJ and CK oils are already making that break point. Since diesels in fleets and off road equipment operate for decades, the oils will follow the market. As the older equipment finally wears out, the market will diminish. But it will never be gone ...
We are at the break point for lubrication. New engines and new oils going forward. Old engines and old oil formulations looking back ...
BrocLuno is spot on.
Won't work.
There will be a specific market with more players for older engine designs. VR-1, Joe Gibbs, Brad Penn, and the HDEO's will take all the market for the older stuff.
CJ and CK oils are already making that break point. Since diesels in fleets and off road equipment operate for decades, the oils will follow the market. As the older equipment finally wears out, the market will diminish. But it will never be gone ...
We are at the break point for lubrication. New engines and new oils going forward. Old engines and old oil formulations looking back ...
BrocLuno is spot on.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Trav
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
How much does the existence of a product really mean about whether it's necessary? Aren't there a bunch of products on the market that aren't necessary or even good, but that still have huge markets?
How many are produced and sold by major oil companies? Shell claims it is necessary for older flat tappet engines when using modern oils. Personally I believe Shell before guys on a forum unless its a expert like Mola.
Originally Posted By: Trav
When a major oil producer like Shell sells a zinc additive for older cars to be used with the modern oil formulations that's answer enough for me.
How much does the existence of a product really mean about whether it's necessary? Aren't there a bunch of products on the market that aren't necessary or even good, but that still have huge markets?
How many are produced and sold by major oil companies? Shell claims it is necessary for older flat tappet engines when using modern oils. Personally I believe Shell before guys on a forum unless its a expert like Mola.
- Status