Bosch D+ 3312 Cut open, ~14k miles

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I have done this many times but I am starting to change my mind, not due to the filter but the amount of old oil it leaves behind.

If your car took 5.5 quarts, would you dump in a new 5 quart jug then finish top off with a half quart of the old oil you just drained?

Nobody would do that, yet that is essentially what I'm doing when I just drain and fill.

The OP's filter looks good but the media looks saturated enough that I think he has hit the reasonable ceiling on this filter. D+ appears to be gone from AAP but I see them at my Walmart.

You can't drain all oil out of the engine regardless of how you do it, there are some oil left in the nook and canny of any engine. If you look at dry fill or engine rebuild and normal oil change you will see the different is about 10-20 oz.

I tried remove filter and let it drain about 6-8 oz drains from filter after 1-2 hours, the remaining oil in filter is probably less than 4-5 oz.

For 5-qt sump, 15-25 oz is no more than 10-15% of the total.

What you stated is true. But why use a dirty oil filter to filter new oil? I'm guessing the next thing we will hear is,"Why not just keep using the same oil over and over?" I mean, if there is dirty oil left in the engine, why add new oil to dirty oil? If it's ok to use a dirty filter over and over again, why not use dirty oil over and over again?

(This should get some interesting replies!)

 

[JZiggy]

Doesn't a partially loaded filter actually filter better?

My FSM recommends 7500m OCs with every other filter change.

Part of why I opened this filter was to see if 15k looked safe. I think it does. I have 4 more of these so I can get to nearly 300k with them

.

 

[HTSS_TR]

JZiggy is correct. Partially loaded filter, be it air or oil or fuel ..., is more efficient in term of filtering but it reduces the volume of fluid, or air, that can be filtered per minute.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

What you stated is true. But why use a dirty oil filter to filter new oil? I'm guessing the next thing we will hear is,"Why not just keep using the same oil over and over?"


Some people do use dirty oil over and over again until a UOA tells them not to anymore. Lots of people dump oil before it's even half worn out. I've been guilty of that myself. Just because an oil filter has been used for a while doesn't mean it can't filter just as good or better than a new one with fresh oil. If someone is going to run a filter good for 15K to only 5K, then they should use something else that is cheaper and is geared more for a 5K OCI.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
JZiggy is correct. Partially loaded filter, be it air or oil or fuel ..., is more efficient in term of filtering but it reduces the volume of fluid, or air, that can be filtered per minute.


That's more true with an air filter than with an oil filter being fed by a positive displacement oil pump. What you don't want to happen is have the oil filter load up to the point where its bypass valve opens up. Changing oil filters every time certainly takes that risk out of the equation.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Most oil filters, even the lowly OCOD, can hold no less than 6-7 grams of debris before it goes to bypass mode all the time.

If an engine sheds more than 3-4 grams of metals in less than 10-12k miles then it is in dying mode, no filter and/or oil will save it.

With my naked eyes, I didn't see any junk on my 12-13k miles cartridge filter of the E430. It looks dark because of dirty oil, but nothing on the media.

 

[Coprolite]

For those that don't like to leave old, dirty oil in their engine when they change their oil, please send me the fresh oil that you use to flush out the old oil and then dispose of after the change.

As far as I know, the only truly single use items in a car are the seat belts and air bags.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
JZiggy is correct. Partially loaded filter, be it air or oil or fuel ..., is more efficient in term of filtering but it reduces the volume of fluid, or air, that can be filtered per minute.

Interesting. Is that true because JZiggy says so, or do you have documentation which states this?

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

You can't drain all oil out of the engine regardless of how you do it, there are some oil left in the nook and canny of any engine.


Yes I understand that but if I just leave the filter on (which is the only way I will do multiple OCI's on the same filter) I am essentially leaving at least an extra half quart of old oil in the engine that I would have gotten out if I had simply changed the filter. That's on top of the old oil that I'm already not going to be able to get out when I drain.

Again, I'm not concerned about the health of the filter, I know it can take it, but it's really adding to the pollution of your brand new oil.

If you are a brave one who will unscrew and drain a filter, then re-use it this could be mostly minimized I agree.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

Yes I understand that but if I just leave the filter on (which is the only way I will do multiple OCI's on the same filter) I am essentially leaving at least an extra half quart of old oil in the engine that I would have gotten out if I had simply changed the filter.


I doubt it's that much unless the filter is gigantic. An averaged sized oil filter only holds about 8 ounces (1/4 qt) from the measurements I've done on the PL14006.

http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/resources/Popup/Pages/PartDetailPopup.aspx?partnum=PL14006

There is a lot of material inside the can to take away oil volume. About 40~50% of the can's volume is taken up by the media, end caps, etc.

 

[Texan4Life]

Thanks for the pics. It looks like it did well. Nothing wrong with running a long drain filter for more than one OCI. I'm in my 2nd OCI with a napa platinum.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I have done this many times but I am starting to change my mind, not due to the filter but the amount of old oil it leaves behind.

If your car took 5.5 quarts, would you dump in a new 5 quart jug then finish top off with a half quart of the old oil you just drained?

Nobody would do that, yet that is essentially what I'm doing when I just drain and fill.

I hear ya ... but most people dump their oil way sooner than it should be anyway. For instance, if you're running a full synthetic that is good for 10K~12K miles, and you dump it at 7,500 but leave the filter (ie, Ultra) on for another 7,500 OCI, then to me you're not hurting anything because the small amount of oil left behind in the filter still has plenty of life in it.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with using a filter for 2 or 3 OCIs depending on the circumstances. Just have to be smart about doing it based on the exact circumstances.


Absolutely correct!

Whatever oil is left in a filter will be revitalized by the new oil and since it's been filtered, it isn't really "dirty." I don't have a problem with using a filter over two OCIs, but if you are using a good oil, instead of two 5K OCIs, why not just run a 10K OCI and change it all? You have then gotten the full use out of the oil and the filter. Remember that the oil really doesn't get into a good "broken in" condition until it has up to 3K miles on it anyway and a high efficiency filter like a D+ or Ultra is going to keep the oil at a pretty clean state.

This D+ held up just fine as you would expect it to. It's a top-drawer filter, after all.

I'll insert a little progress report on my differential pressure testing here now and as it warms up and my oil temps are running higher, I'm seeing about 2-3 psi DP with 10W30 oil with 12K miles on it, a P1 filter with 12K + miles at 175-180 EOT and at 2000 rpm. Cold is a lot higher, though I just datalogged a cold start, full bore acceleration to 5500 rpm and probably got into bypass territory... around 8-9 psi on the gauge... haven't printed it out yet.

 

[JZiggy]

Jim,

Can you comment further on "breaking in" oil?

Part of why I change it at 5k is I have so many jugs from the close the loop rebates! I'm sure I could safely take it to 7500 and maybe I will do that.

 

[SteveSRT8]

He is referring to the period of increased wear that occurs when you start your new run on fresh oil. Wear declines as the oil ages out a bit.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: JZiggy
Used this on my 95 Civic mostly with Maxlife NG oil. I tend to do 2 or 3 oil changes while retaining the filter.

This makes me feel comfortable running this filter to 15k or beyond.


Where's BlueOvalFitter when you need him????

He probably had a seizure when he read the 2nd sentence (in red).

I am glad it's not my engine that uses the oil filters multiple times.
Some of you members should get together and suggest to diaper companies to have the consumers re-use their diapers. (IE; Pampers, LUVS, etc.) I mean, all they have to do is shake it out and re-install it, right? In theory, you're just draining the old oil and leaving a re-installed diaper in place.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

I doubt it's that much unless the filter is gigantic. An averaged sized oil filter only holds about 8 ounces (1/4 qt) from the measurements I've done on the PL14006.

http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/resources/Popup/Pages/PartDetailPopup.aspx?partnum=PL14006

There is a lot of material inside the can to take away oil volume. About 40~50% of the can's volume is taken up by the media, end caps, etc.


True, but don't forget the old oil that comes gushing out that is being held in the upper part of the engine by the ADBV. In my Jeep, between a full filter and top end oil it's at least half a quart.

To each his own, but after a disappointing UOA on an OCI interval during which the filter was left on, I'll be changing filters with the oil for a while.

Perspective is everything I guess, I don't see it as old oil being "rejuvenated" by the new oil, I see it as new oil being "diluted" or "polluted" by old oil.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

I doubt it's that much unless the filter is gigantic. An averaged sized oil filter only holds about 8 ounces (1/4 qt) from the measurements I've done on the PL14006.

http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/resources/Popup/Pages/PartDetailPopup.aspx?partnum=PL14006

There is a lot of material inside the can to take away oil volume. About 40~50% of the can's volume is taken up by the media, end caps, etc.


True, but don't forget the old oil that come gushing out that is being held in the upper part of the engine by the ADBV. In my Jeep, between a full filter and top end oil it's at least half a quart.

To each his own, but after a disappointing UOA on an OCI interval during which the filter was left on, I'll be changing filters with the oil for a while.

Very good point there KC.
BTW, that ADBV in his pic looked "kind of" beat up. Or, is that what it is supposed to look like?

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Most oil filters, even the lowly OCOD, can hold no less than 6-7 grams of debris before it goes to bypass mode all the time.

If an engine sheds more than 3-4 grams of metals in less than 10-12k miles then it is in dying mode, no filter and/or oil will save it.

With my naked eyes, I didn't see any junk on my 12-13k miles cartridge filter of the E430. It looks dark because of dirty oil, but nothing on the media.


I think you are underestimating "average" capacity a bit, HT (unless you were stating a known capacity for a particular fitler... but I think it would be a pretty tiny filter). Were I to make that generalization, I would say 8-10 grams would be the minimum and In the specs I have been able to obtain, many "average" filters, about the size of an MC FL820s are around 15 grams rated capacity. The Ultra XG2 is rated for a whopping 30 grams! I agree that 3-4 grams of metal shed in 10-12K would be a massive amount and the engine would probably be a deader sooner than later. Even during break-in, that wouldn't happen.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

I'll insert a little progress report on my differential pressure testing here now and as it warms up and my oil temps are running higher, I'm seeing about 2-3 psi DP with 10W30 oil with 12K miles on it, a P1 filter with 12K + miles at 175-180 EOT and at 2000 rpm. Cold is a lot higher, though I just datalogged a cold start, full bore acceleration to 5500 rpm and probably got into bypass territory... around 8-9 psi on the gauge... haven't printed it out yet.


Thanks for the info ... interested in knowing more about the delta-P testing you're doing. The cold oil delta-P of 8~9 PSID doesn't surprise me, especially when revved up to 5500 RPM. I'm sure the oil pump was hitting pressure relief mode too.

 

[Hosteen]

Amen to that BlueOvalFitter. I'd rather have my prostate reemed out again than use an oil filter for 15000 miles. Use a new oil filter with new oil. They don't cost that much. Regards