Battle of the 18v tool sets

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Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Be careful to check the batteries that are packaged with the set. Sometimes they don't have the high-capacity batteries, but use a smaller one.


It seems cordless tools are like printers, they make their money on the ink, just like the batteries. And then you end up buying a new printer every few years because they are cheaper than ink. You can always buy a cheap "kit" with a low capacity cartridge - for convenience!

Looks like all the 18v kits come with a 1.5ah battery or two, and then you can buy 2, 3 or 4 AH batteries. The problem with that is, if I buy the Ridgid set for the warranty, I need to go buy a 4AH battery at retail price to get the warranty on it.(And those don't go on sale!) Isn't it great how lifetime warranties require a receipt.

I guess the real question is what do I do with all these perfectly good leftover drill motors? I can just about build an electric car...
 
"Looks like all the 18v kits come with a 1.5ah battery or two, and then you can buy 2, 3 or 4 AH batteries. The problem with that is, if I buy the Ridgid set for the warranty, I need to go buy a 4AH battery at retail price to get the warranty on it.(And those don't go on sale!) Isn't it great how lifetime warranties require a receipt." [End Quote]

Whatever you buy (cordless) it will probably be as good as it's batteries.
I too have been through a slew of cordless drills, that worked fine until the battery gave out. Then I found that it was not economically viable to buy 'just' a new battery.
A production workshop might well get intensive duty from a Quality tool within the life of a battery or Warranty (I figure a battery will last 2-3 years, weather you use the tool or not) By which time, I guess they feel the tool has paid for itself.

A Homeowner / Weekend warrior might not put so many hours on a tool within a 2-3 year period, so therefor might not get so much 'value' from paying for a premium tool.

For what it's worth, I only have the standard 18v Li batteries that came with my Ridgid tools. (I haven't upgraded) They seem to last OK (as long as any NiCad tool I have had in the past) and they charge very quickly, 20 min for a full charge, 5 min for (what seems to be) about Half a charge. Plus, I have several, standby batteries.
 
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Well, something annoying has happened.

A couple of weeks ago, I decided to get a 12v drill for home use. I went with the Ridgid kit that comes with the 12v "Fuego" drill, a charger, 2 batteries and a 12v flashlight, for $139 plus tax.

What made my decision was, primarily, the Lifetime Service Agreement, plus the fact that I have been satisfied with the 18v drill/impact/radio kit that I bought for work a few months ago, which also has the LSA.

Well, a week or so after I registered the kit on the Ridgid website (they give you 90 days from date of purchase), I get an e-mail from them saying that there was a problem with the registration and they need me to mail them (they recommend certified mail, of course) the original receipt and the UPC cutout. Which is a hassle. A few days after that, I was on a 3-hr drive from Memphis to Nashville, so I thought I'd give them a call to ask what exactly the problem was, since it was obviously not on my end (I carefully entered all the info they asked for, including serial numbers and the code off the receipt). And I wanted to know why the heck I was expected to go through all that rigamarole when the problem was on their end. Well, I waited on hold for half an hour then gave up.

So, I'm going to go through all their bullcrap and mail the receipt and UPC, etc, etc. But this doesn't give me a whole lot of faith in their warranty process.

By the way, I registered my 18v kit online the exact same way with no problems - my kit was "upgraded to LSA status" within a week.

I don't understand. Admittedly I have not tried to call back. As they say in Memphis, ain't nobody got time fo' dat.

Incidentally, a warranty claim I filed with DeWalt when my DeWalt 12v screwgun fouled up was totally painless. I drove down to the DeWalt factory-approved service facility here in Nashville with my kit, told them the problem, and the entire kit was replaced, on the spot, no questions asked.

It seems to me that Ridgid, while apparently building a good tool, wants to make people jump through as many hoops as possible, in hopes that some people will get frustrated and not follow through with the process, and therefore not have their tools validated for the LSA. It's kinda like the games stores play with mail-in rebates - they know a lot of people won't fool with the mail-in rebate process, and they won't have to pay a bunch of the rebates.

I'm a man, not a woman - I don't like games.
 
I have sent out batteries to have new batteries installed. You can typically get a higher amp-hr than what it came with. You do not save any money, but get a better battery pack.
 
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Be careful to check the batteries that are packaged with the set. Sometimes they don't have the high-capacity batteries, but use a smaller one.


It seems cordless tools are like printers, they make their money on the ink, just like the batteries. And then you end up buying a new printer every few years because they are cheaper than ink. You can always buy a cheap "kit" with a low capacity cartridge - for convenience!



...and razor blades...
 
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Be careful to check the batteries that are packaged with the set. Sometimes they don't have the high-capacity batteries, but use a smaller one.


It seems cordless tools are like printers, they make their money on the ink, just like the batteries. And then you end up buying a new printer every few years because they are cheaper than ink. You can always buy a cheap "kit" with a low capacity cartridge - for convenience!



...and razor blades...


Remember to keep your lithium batteries charged to 40% capacity for longer storage, and keep in a cool environment. Heat plus fuller charge 80-100% will cause faster degradation of the pack. Manufacturers sell you “fast chargers” that charge the battery as fast as possible to not inconvenience the customer. This causes the individual cells to be forced to 4.2000V or above which further reduces battery life. Tests show that backing off the termination voltage to 4.1000V per cell increases battery life by about 1000 cycles.

One reason why I love the good old NICD packs, yes heavier but true and tested chemistry. As long as they are balanced once every three to four months which all fast chargers will not do, they will last a long time. My 12V 2006 is at 90%, 12V 2008 at 95%, and both 18V 2010 at 100%. They are better at handling the use/abuse/heat/low discharge/overcharge. Most of your capacity degradation on NICD systems comes from voltage depression and imbalanced cells which has nothing to do with the memory effect as is the popular belief.
 
I really like my Milwaukee M18 Lithium tools. I bought a drill/impact kit about a year ago, and also a circular saw and an extra battery. Keep a sharp blade on the saw and it's great. The drill and impact driver are both awesome...I like the metal chuck on the drill. Batteries last a long time.

I prefer a corded angle grinder.

I'm leery of DeWalt these days...a lot of their tools don't seem up to par...thought I love my 10 amp angle grinder.
 
Originally Posted By: kgb007stb
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Be careful to check the batteries that are packaged with the set. Sometimes they don't have the high-capacity batteries, but use a smaller one.


It seems cordless tools are like printers, they make their money on the ink, just like the batteries. And then you end up buying a new printer every few years because they are cheaper than ink. You can always buy a cheap "kit" with a low capacity cartridge - for convenience!



...and razor blades...


Remember to keep your lithium batteries charged to 40% capacity for longer storage, and keep in a cool environment. Heat plus fuller charge 80-100% will cause faster degradation of the pack. Manufacturers sell you “fast chargers” that charge the battery as fast as possible to not inconvenience the customer. This causes the individual cells to be forced to 4.2000V or above which further reduces battery life. Tests show that backing off the termination voltage to 4.1000V per cell increases battery life by about 1000 cycles.

One reason why I love the good old NICD packs, yes heavier but true and tested chemistry. As long as they are balanced once every three to four months which all fast chargers will not do, they will last a long time. My 12V 2006 is at 90%, 12V 2008 at 95%, and both 18V 2010 at 100%. They are better at handling the use/abuse/heat/low discharge/overcharge. Most of your capacity degradation on NICD systems comes from voltage depression and imbalanced cells which has nothing to do with the memory effect as is the popular belief.


How does one test NICAD capacity like you mention? Voltage after a charge?

My Dewalt charger automatically balances the cells when needed. Another has a button to start the balance cycle.
 
I used 18V dewalt hammer drill/ impact gun combo for 5 years, hammer drill was getting weak, impact driver ran fine, last year around this yime I upgraded to 20V dewalt and like them a lot. Im a dewalt brand loyal so im a little bias but I think the new 20V set is the way to go.
 
Originally Posted By: laserred96gt
I used 18V dewalt hammer drill/ impact gun combo for 5 years, hammer drill was getting weak, impact driver ran fine, last year around this yime I upgraded to 20V dewalt and like them a lot. Im a dewalt brand loyal so im a little bias but I think the new 20V set is the way to go.


I was told some of the Dewalt tools have metal gears and some plastic. Unsure how to tell.
 
Don’t be fooled by the balance feature on the dewalt chargers, although useful, it is not as good as a classical balance done by a hobby charger. I have this verified on the dewalt 12v and 18v packs that I left on the dewalt charger for balancing. It worked maybe 30-50% but the battery was still losing capacity (suffering from voltage depression, not capacity loss). Only after running a true balance on a hobby charger did I restore all cells back to normal.

I test battery capacity according to international standards and using a good hobby charger to measure true capacity in mAh. The international standard says charge a battery at 0.1C (c = capacity) for 16 hours, then discharge at 0.2C to 0.9v per cell and you get the true battery capacity in mAh or Ah.

If I have a 2.0 amp hour battery pack, (yellow dewalts use quality cells that spec at 2.1 to 2.2Ah when new) 2.0Ah = 2000aAh, I will charge the18v pack pack for 16h at 0.2A, forcing 160%, 3200maAh charge into the battery. This causes all 15 cells in a battery pack to balance by slightly overcharging the fuller cells while giving enough time for undercharged cells to come to full capacity. Overcharging cells at this capacity does not hurt the battery pack as excess energy is dissipated through heat, as the 0.1c charge rate is gentle enough to not cause excessive heat which would cause permanent cell damage. At the end of the charge terminate charge without any trickle charge, rest the battery for 1hour to cool off and discharge at 0.2C (0.4A discharge current for a 2.0Ah cell) to 0.9v per cell or 13.5v for a 18v battery pack (15cell a pack times 0.9v per cell = 13.5v). My hobby charger is programmed to do all steps for consistent dada measurements so for me it is a set it and forget it 24 hour operation.

Balancing cells in a battery pack is crucial because nicd chargers are set to look for a delta peak voltage. When charging starts, voltage will slowly rise, then level off, and at the very end start to drop. At the very last step in the charging process when the voltage in a fully charged cell starts to decrease, it is considered to be at the 90% to 95% charge. Depending on the sensitivity of your charger once enough cells start to drop, the combined delta voltage drop will signal to the charger that a pack is charged. The only problem is that there will be some cells that will not make it to full charge. Over time imbalance between cells becomes greater, undercharged cells start to suffer from voltage depression, causing further capacity degradation making the user think that a battery pack is suffering from a memory effect.

This is one reason why I consider all 1 hour chargers fast chargers and nothing more. Great in the beginning but long term will hurt the overall battery pack.
 
Originally Posted By: kgb007stb
Don’t be fooled by the balance feature on the dewalt chargers, although useful, it is not as good as a classical balance done by a hobby charger. I have this verified on the dewalt 12v and 18v packs that I left on the dewalt charger for balancing. It worked maybe 30-50% but the battery was still losing capacity (suffering from voltage depression, not capacity loss). Only after running a true balance on a hobby charger did I restore all cells back to normal.

I test battery capacity according to international standards and using a good hobby charger to measure true capacity in mAh. The international standard says charge a battery at 0.1C (c = capacity) for 16 hours, then discharge at 0.2C to 0.9v per cell and you get the true battery capacity in mAh or Ah.

If I have a 2.0 amp hour battery pack, (yellow dewalts use quality cells that spec at 2.1 to 2.2Ah when new) 2.0Ah = 2000aAh, I will charge the18v pack pack for 16h at 0.2A, forcing 160%, 3200maAh charge into the battery. This causes all 15 cells in a battery pack to balance by slightly overcharging the fuller cells while giving enough time for undercharged cells to come to full capacity. Overcharging cells at this capacity does not hurt the battery pack as excess energy is dissipated through heat, as the 0.1c charge rate is gentle enough to not cause excessive heat which would cause permanent cell damage. At the end of the charge terminate charge without any trickle charge, rest the battery for 1hour to cool off and discharge at 0.2C (0.4A discharge current for a 2.0Ah cell) to 0.9v per cell or 13.5v for a 18v battery pack (15cell a pack times 0.9v per cell = 13.5v). My hobby charger is programmed to do all steps for consistent dada measurements so for me it is a set it and forget it 24 hour operation.

Balancing cells in a battery pack is crucial because nicd chargers are set to look for a delta peak voltage. When charging starts, voltage will slowly rise, then level off, and at the very end start to drop. At the very last step in the charging process when the voltage in a fully charged cell starts to decrease, it is considered to be at the 90% to 95% charge. Depending on the sensitivity of your charger once enough cells start to drop, the combined delta voltage drop will signal to the charger that a pack is charged. The only problem is that there will be some cells that will not make it to full charge. Over time imbalance between cells becomes greater, undercharged cells start to suffer from voltage depression, causing further capacity degradation making the user think that a battery pack is suffering from a memory effect.

This is one reason why I consider all 1 hour chargers fast chargers and nothing more. Great in the beginning but long term will hurt the overall battery pack.


With respect (and I mean that)
I would say the average user would just want to, and expect to 'Plug in and Play' when it comes to there tool batteries.
 
Originally Posted By: kgb007stb
Don’t be fooled by the balance feature on the dewalt chargers, although useful, it is not as good as a classical balance done by a hobby charger. I have this verified on the dewalt 12v and 18v packs that I left on the dewalt charger for balancing. It worked maybe 30-50% but the battery was still losing capacity (suffering from voltage depression, not capacity loss). Only after running a true balance on a hobby charger did I restore all cells back to normal.

I test battery capacity according to international standards and using a good hobby charger to measure true capacity in mAh. The international standard says charge a battery at 0.1C (c = capacity) for 16 hours, then discharge at 0.2C to 0.9v per cell and you get the true battery capacity in mAh or Ah.

If I have a 2.0 amp hour battery pack, (yellow dewalts use quality cells that spec at 2.1 to 2.2Ah when new) 2.0Ah = 2000aAh, I will charge the18v pack pack for 16h at 0.2A, forcing 160%, 3200maAh charge into the battery. This causes all 15 cells in a battery pack to balance by slightly overcharging the fuller cells while giving enough time for undercharged cells to come to full capacity. Overcharging cells at this capacity does not hurt the battery pack as excess energy is dissipated through heat, as the 0.1c charge rate is gentle enough to not cause excessive heat which would cause permanent cell damage. At the end of the charge terminate charge without any trickle charge, rest the battery for 1hour to cool off and discharge at 0.2C (0.4A discharge current for a 2.0Ah cell) to 0.9v per cell or 13.5v for a 18v battery pack (15cell a pack times 0.9v per cell = 13.5v). My hobby charger is programmed to do all steps for consistent dada measurements so for me it is a set it and forget it 24 hour .


What kind of charger do you have? We are looking at tooling up a lot of cordless drills at work for an assembly operation and I would be interested in keeping the batteries at peak charge capacity. Where would I find more info?
 
Originally Posted By: RS700L
I really like my Milwaukee M18 Lithium tools. I bought a drill/impact kit about a year ago, and also a circular saw and an extra battery. Keep a sharp blade on the saw and it's great. The drill and impact driver are both awesome...I like the metal chuck on the drill. Batteries last a long time.

I prefer a corded angle grinder.

I'm leery of DeWalt these days...a lot of their tools don't seem up to par...thought I love my 10 amp angle grinder.



And with this the the thread is complete.
Milwaukee is the only real game in town. Dewalt is utter garbage. You get guys who swear by dewalt and at them I laugh. Paying for junk always brings a smile to my face.
I'm not brand loyal when I comes to tools. I try everything since my supplier will give me stuff before I decide to buy them.
Dewalt makes a great table saw with the rack and pinion fence. Great portable unit. Their sliding compound mitre is great too. I own 3 of each. Those are the only decent tools they make worth a darn. Their cordless junk isn't worth the plastic,great for boating though,as an anchor.
Milwaukee cordless is the only option. I use and beat my tools to a pulp. Milwaukee is all I will buy now. Nothing else comes close as far as durability.
Rigid isn't bad too I must admit.
 
I used my buddy's 18v Makita impact last night to screw together some 2x4s. Why don't the small impacts have a clutch like drills do for driving screws? This thing will break the heads off if you are not careful. It seemed a little slow at driving them after they were about half way in, in relatively soft wood. It was fine for what I was doing but if I was building a deck I wouldn't be happy. I must admit I didn't bend or strip a single screw, and I can't say that if I use a drill to drive them.

Would a 1/2" cordless impact do a better job of driving long screws into wood? I would like to get a big one and a small one...
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
I was noticing the Dewalt XR Premium series is brushless and all metal gear housing and transmission. No experience, just reading.


They are as expensive at the Milwaukee M18 Fuel however.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Donald
I was noticing the Dewalt XR Premium series is brushless and all metal gear housing and transmission. No experience, just reading.


They are as expensive at the Milwaukee M18 Fuel however.


And M18 Fuel has a better warranty and better battery warranty as well as class leadig power.
 
Originally Posted By: Number21
I used my buddy's 18v Makita impact last night to screw together some 2x4s. Why don't the small impacts have a clutch like drills do for driving screws?


Good question. My guess would be there would be no way to easily and reliably measure the torque because of the impacting forces. I've gotten good at feathering the throttle and using less speed for certain screws. I think that is the trick to it. Some units - Milwaukee M18 Fuel have a speed selector that will let you dial it down for small screws.

Quote:
This thing will break the heads off if you are not careful. It seemed a little slow at driving them after they were about half way in, in relatively soft wood. It was fine for what I was doing but if I was building a deck I wouldn't be happy. I must admit I didn't bend or strip a single screw, and I can't say that if I use a drill to drive them.

Would a 1/2" cordless impact do a better job of driving long screws into wood? I would like to get a big one and a small one...


Were you using one made for screws (with the female hex) or one made for sockets (with the male square)? I've found that they can be a tad slower than a drill especially if you are good enough to be able to drive screws at top speed. I think the advantage is no stripping and control. I've even been able to drive/remove semi-stripped screws with my impact. I really like it for driving lots of screws and not messing them up.
 
It was the female hex style. Maybe I was just expecting too much, all the screw heads did look like new after driving them, and I even pulled out some screws I previously mangled with a drill. I bet those bits last forever!
 
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