Battery Chargers - Garage Fun and Results

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
There are a variety of different algorithms that get employed. Constant voltage, constant current, constant current to a voltage point then constant voltage until current drops to a certain level, etc., etc.

Sometimes the cell impedance determines how the battery is charged based upon the charger's rating. Some chargers do an equalization charge (higher voltage) depending upon how the battery took charge, or if the software is lousy, any time the battery is fully charged...

Too bad you didnt try any of the better chargers like battery minder, Solar prologix, Ampmatic, etc.


I looked at the BM 2012. I am considering buying one when I can find the right price. It isn't cheap. I found a vendor for the CTEK MUS4.3 on Amazon.com for $57. Any suggestions on a vendor for the BM?


Would BM model would you recommend, other than the 2012?
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
There are a variety of different algorithms that get employed. Constant voltage, constant current, constant current to a voltage point then constant voltage until current drops to a certain level, etc., etc.

Sometimes the cell impedance determines how the battery is charged based upon the charger's rating. Some chargers do an equalization charge (higher voltage) depending upon how the battery took charge, or if the software is lousy, any time the battery is fully charged...

Too bad you didnt try any of the better chargers like battery minder, Solar prologix, Ampmatic, etc.


To clarify, the term "better" used above refers to the patented high frequency desulfation and ambient temperature compensation features?
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
Would BM model would you recommend, other than the 2012?

The 2012 is an older model, not to say that it's bad or anything. I have one. It's more of a maintainer and top-off charger. If you have a very depleted car battery, it would take a very long time to fully charge it using only 2A current, but I guess eventually you'd get it done.

The newer model that superseded it is the 128CEC1, alas, that's even more expensive.
smile.gif
$150 on amazon.

The Solar Pro-Logix PL2320 is a good deal. It sometimes goes on sale on Amazon. I paid around $60 for it.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yeah, mine doesn't exactly do that either. When I check with my clamp meter, it looks like it's sending 1.5A pulses every 2 seconds or so. My clamp meter may not be quick enough to read it accurately, but there are definitely some current pulses going on.

Voltage is sitting at around 13.0-13.1V.


So, about 6 hours later, voltage is now around 13.9V, still current pulsing. 100% light still steady. No idea what it's doing.
 
Another 3.5 hours later, voltage is now approaching 14.6V, still current pulsing. Don't really know what to think of it at this point...

Not sure if I should disconnect it...
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Another 3.5 hours later, voltage is now approaching 14.6V, still current pulsing. Don't really know what to think of it at this point...

Not sure if I should disconnect it...



It appears you are experiencing the same behavior I observed. 14.6 / 14.8 volts sustained for extended periods of time is not ideal. In the context of a 'maintenance' step it's all the more bizarre. This is the behavior of your typical bulk charge step.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Another 3.5 hours later, voltage is now approaching 14.6V, still current pulsing. Don't really know what to think of it at this point...

Not sure if I should disconnect it...



What was the outcome?
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
What was the outcome?

Another 2 hours later, before I went to bed, it was still around 14.7-14.8V, so I disconnected it.

After disconnection, battery voltage was around 13V.

I then connected my old Battery Minder 2012 which was keeping it at about 13.6V.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: webfors
What was the outcome?

Another 2 hours later, before I went to bed, it was still around 14.7-14.8V, so I disconnected it.

After disconnection, battery voltage was around 13V.

I then connected my old Battery Minder 2012 which was keeping it at about 13.6V.


Strange.

My CTEK holds 13.6 bang on too at the end of a charge cycle. I can't imagine what algorithm is making the noco perform like that. It certainly isn't documented in the manual.
 
Without knowing how many amps the battery is accepting at those voltages you are essentially blind.

a battery accepting 5 amps at 14.7 is not close to fully charged, a battery accepting les than a half amp at 14.7 is or is very nearly fully charged.

Voltage alone is very misleading, voltage is electrical pressure. You can have a hose filled with pressure but no Flow. Amps are the flow. If you dont know the flow, you are basically blind.

Get a hydrometer too . OTC 4619 or better.

If specific gravity is anything less than the 1.275 range and your charger is still holding 14.5+ volts, that is a very good thing.

Guessing at what the charger is trying to do based on only voltage is extremely unwise, and barely any better then hoping and believing the green light.
 
Interesting bit of information on the Battery Tender Junior. Unlike the Schumacher SC1, the BT maintains 13.10 volts indefinitely, once the charging step to 14.6 volts is complete. The BT appears to be providing the exact current to keep 13.10 volts, regardless of battery size. I've confirmed this on small AGM and large wet cell batteries. It is therefore constantly monitoring and modifying the current to keep that voltage.
 
I have had 2 Schumacher chargers and got rid of them both. AGM and Gel settings charge at way too high voltage. Almost 16 volts. It will cook them. Battery tender, battery minder are good for maintenance. I use a xantrex right now. Seems to work good and keeps voltage with in range for my Odyssey batteries.
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I just bought the Noco Genius G3500 if anyone has questions I have the book.

What book? The owner's manual? We all have it, but it still does not explain the behavior that we are seeing.
 
I have NOCO Genius G3500 that I use on the garaged '15 Mazda CX-5 and Genius GENM1, on-board type that is mounted under the hood of my outdoor '14 Tahoe. I hook them up weekly, overnight in summer and more frequently during the winter. I tend to measure voltage on both, and although different, they have never exceeded the ones put up by the charging systems of the cars. Mazda spits out around 14.1V regardless of the ambient temp or the state of charge, for hours while I drive. Tahoe has quite a bit more sophisticated charging system. After few minutes it identifies that the battery is fully charged and drops the voltage to 12.6V, and this can go for quite a while too. It will charge quite aggressively though when cold and the battery is weak (previous OEM batery). But even then the voltage never exceeds 15V. According to my measurements, neither of NOCO chargers produce anything close to that, regardless of the temperature. So I conclude that even extended usage of these devices is quite safe. 13.5v is when the Tahoe begins to drop the voltage. Not to mention Mazda...
 
So your standing in the basement, near some copper plumbing. You know there is pressure in them pipes, and somebody upstairs turns on a fawcet.
You can hear water flowing through the pipes, BUt is is the watermaker in your fridge, or is someone filling the bathtub.

Voltage is electrical pressure, but it does not tell one how much water is flowing through Dem pipes.

Get a digital Ammeter.

Defining 'Current' by voltage alone, is not wise.

Get one of these, or one of the many different clones available. Place it inline on the charger output paying attention to the load and source sides. The battery is the load when charging, the charger the source.

https://www.amazon.com/RGBZONE-Power-Ana...ds=gt+power+130

With it you can see:
voltage
Amperage
Wattage
Peak amps
Peak watts
Minimum voltage
Amp hours
Watt hours
and possibly time since it first got powered up, depending on the clone chosen.

Much Much much more revealing than voltage alone.

Revealing as to what the charger is doing, or not doing, and what the battery is accepting at the voltageit is being held at by the charging source.

Most AGMS specify a float voltage, at 77f, of 13.6v. There are exceptions, but too low a float voltage held for a week is worse than disconnecting the fully charged AGM, if indeed it is fully charged.

I have a Northstar AGM. If I float it at 13.5v for any amount of time, while still running other DC loads on the battery, then I boost voltage back upto 14.7v, well if the battery was being kept fully charged, amps would quickly taper to very little percentage of capacity, but 13.5v does not do this. 13.6v does.

13.5v while running DC loads and it takes X amount of time for amps to taper back to 0.5% of capacity or less at absorption voltage, indicating the battery even while being held above its fully charged resting voltage, was getting discharged by the DC loads at too low of a float voltage.

I'm not quite sure how this works but it is observable and repeatable and very obvious as I have an ammeter, and can easily change voltage by twisting a dial, while watching a voltmeter, and ammeter.

Get an Ammeter, or you are basically blind.

And as far as determining the efficacy of any charger, use a hydrometer. The hydrometer on a flooded battery is a battery polygraph. The green light on the charger is meaningless, indicating only that the charger has dropped to float or stopped. Float does not equal full. The green light does not equal a fully charged battery.

Trust if you want, but I recommend verification. I have a schumacher sc2500a charger, that back when the display still worked, would throw out the green light, but my wattmeter inline would indicate the battery was still being held at 14.7v, and still accepting 5 amps. This is very far from being fully charged, this is still hours away from being fully charged.

With AGMS verification of full charge can only be done with an Ammeter with the battery at absorption voltage/ ~14.5v. Float voltage amperage is nearly entirely meaningless, unless the battery is accepting a lot of amperage at float voltage, this would indicate the battery is NO where near fully charged.

Get an Ammeter.
 
Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
So your standing in the basement, near some copper plumbing. You know there is pressure in them pipes, and somebody upstairs turns on a fawcet.
You can hear water flowing through the pipes, BUt is is the watermaker in your fridge, or is someone filling the bathtub.

Voltage is electrical pressure, but it does not tell one how much water is flowing through Dem pipes.

Get a digital Ammeter.

Defining 'Current' by voltage alone, is not wise.

Get one of these, or one of the many different clones available. Place it inline on the charger output paying attention to the load and source sides. The battery is the load when charging, the charger the source.

https://www.amazon.com/RGBZONE-Power-Ana...ds=gt+power+130

With it you can see:
voltage
Amperage
Wattage
Peak amps
Peak watts
Minimum voltage
Amp hours
Watt hours
and possibly time since it first got powered up, depending on the clone chosen.

Much Much much more revealing than voltage alone.

Revealing as to what the charger is doing, or not doing, and what the battery is accepting at the voltageit is being held at by the charging source.

Most AGMS specify a float voltage, at 77f, of 13.6v. There are exceptions, but too low a float voltage held for a week is worse than disconnecting the fully charged AGM, if indeed it is fully charged.

I have a Northstar AGM. If I float it at 13.5v for any amount of time, while still running other DC loads on the battery, then I boost voltage back upto 14.7v, well if the battery was being kept fully charged, amps would quickly taper to very little percentage of capacity, but 13.5v does not do this. 13.6v does.

13.5v while running DC loads and it takes X amount of time for amps to taper back to 0.5% of capacity or less at absorption voltage, indicating the battery even while being held above its fully charged resting voltage, was getting discharged by the DC loads at too low of a float voltage.

I'm not quite sure how this works but it is observable and repeatable and very obvious as I have an ammeter, and can easily change voltage by twisting a dial, while watching a voltmeter, and ammeter.

Get an Ammeter, or you are basically blind.

And as far as determining the efficacy of any charger, use a hydrometer. The hydrometer on a flooded battery is a battery polygraph. The green light on the charger is meaningless, indicating only that the charger has dropped to float or stopped. Float does not equal full. The green light does not equal a fully charged battery.

Trust if you want, but I recommend verification. I have a schumacher sc2500a charger, that back when the display still worked, would throw out the green light, but my wattmeter inline would indicate the battery was still being held at 14.7v, and still accepting 5 amps. This is very far from being fully charged, this is still hours away from being fully charged.

With AGMS verification of full charge can only be done with an Ammeter with the battery at absorption voltage/ ~14.5v. Float voltage amperage is nearly entirely meaningless, unless the battery is accepting a lot of amperage at float voltage, this would indicate the battery is NO where near fully charged.

Get an Ammeter.


That is great info. Kudos to the poster.

If you don't remember all of it remember this:

"Voltage is electrical pressure, but it does not tell one how much water is flowing through Dem pipes.

Defining 'Current' by voltage alone, is not wise."

They used to teach this in 7th grade science. By high school physics it was that and Ohms Law, AC and DC, etc.

I kid you not, I know engineers who ask me to wire their garage or room addition because they can't do it. Software engineers who can't handle a DMM for basic functions, etc
 
To the guys that have this Noco 3.5 Im curious about it if you know or could help me out it'd be great.

the 3.5 Amp Noco unit strikes an interesting balance between price and amps.

How big a battery is it rated to charge and maintain?

It does not auto chemistry detect you have to chose the mode AGM/Lead/ Gel right?
Whats it default to on startup and if you change it will it remember on startup again?


Does it go in to desuphate/revovery on its own or do you have to activate that mode?

Does it have enough oomph to equalize an 8D ?

At 2 volts recovery sensitivity it is only 1/4th as as sensitive as the optimate in terms of unaided (no jumper batt) resurrection capability

This charger has no temp compensation, certainly not at the clamp, and not ambient either right?

What are you guys paying for these?

Thanks!

UD
 
Last edited:
FWIW thrilled with my new Optimate 7's.

Put them right on a optima yellow top sitting for over a year and it stabilized and brought it back to about 90% in a few hours and was pulsing away toward 100- well see where it lands Monday when the shop opens after optimizing all weekend.

Dropped the seconding one on the sprinters 2x225AH AGM's that work 8-6 daily - brought it up to them to identical voltage as my outback FX2012 invert charger did - good because its internal charger just died and now I have to buy a new 1700.00 inverter charger and get this one remanned.

Little harder to tell whats going on- display wise.

On equal footing with stuff this size its got an ambient sensor in it.
Like most of its ilk it frequently auto tests and auto optimizes to a length multi step charge. .

Pluses- compared to many that require you to select a proper amperage and chemistry, or starts a separate desuplate mode - Its hands free no button pushing plug and go.

1. auto chemistry detection and size battery being charged and select there correct voltage/ amperage.

2. you can override the auto setting if you wish 14.3 or 14.7V

3. automatic recovery mode if its prelim test detects sulphation

2. Maintenance mode- same as Ctrk 7002 - nice feature especially my PIA lexus that loses its window and sunroof indexes if I lose power.

3. will auto rescue/recover down to .5 volt (unaided by a jumper battery) many go down to 2, fewer to 1, .5 seems to be the lowest Ive seen.
you can always get around this by dragging a separate battery with you and jump 2 of them , but if you have to trod a ways with a genset and charger to say a mower in a back shed your kid left the ignition switch on for a week, and drained it dead or near dead not having to salvage and get an extra battery to jump the 2 is nice, or course you could always bring a a" dumb charger" if you had one. Im only down to huge roll around dumb ones at the shop, everywhere else its maintainers/ chargers of 5-20 amps.

4. Super wide operation and size detection range . 3-400AH one small unit will maintain a whole RV house bank. or 2 8'd RV starter batteries as well as charge small motorcycle batteries.

5. ability to detect a battery isolated or removed and on bench and initiate a more aggressive higher voltage recovery schedule if needed- than a battery attached to a vehicle.


 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top