Average new car payment $554

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Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
These are the sort of things with real value and staying power, even if all of the systems break down. Nothing will ever occur to make them irrelevant.


Like I said earlier, this is the kind of thinking that gets you sub optimal returns. As there were people who felt the depression was going to happen again, there have always been people who though that the world was going to end or was going to the proverbial handbasket. Historically it hasn't happened in the last 200+ years since the revolutionary war. Maybe civil war if you were in the south as confederate money became worthless. But then again it's not like it had a long track record.

Also in theory when the system breaks down, ownership of land also goes away as the court houses also go away. In many revolutions or break downs in government, land is lost or taken by the winning side so saying it's the best in a bad situation isn't backed up by any history.

Fear can cause you to do things that aren't smart financially.

In order...

Germany
Greece
VZ

lots of others, but these you know about even if you live under a rock.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
These are the sort of things with real value and staying power, even if all of the systems break down. Nothing will ever occur to make them irrelevant.


Like I said earlier, this is the kind of thinking that gets you sub optimal returns. As there were people who felt the depression was going to happen again, there have always been people who though that the world was going to end or was going to the proverbial handbasket. Historically it hasn't happened in the last 200+ years since the revolutionary war. Maybe civil war if you were in the south as confederate money became worthless. But then again it's not like it had a long track record.

Also in theory when the system breaks down, ownership of land also goes away as the court houses also go away. In many revolutions or break downs in government, land is lost or taken by the winning side so saying it's the best in a bad situation isn't backed up by any history.

Fear can cause you to do things that aren't smart financially.

In order...

Germany
Greece
VZ

lots of others, but these you know about even if you live under a rock.


Yeah, but last I checked, that hasn't happened in the US in quite a while. Last depression was in the 30's. There are people who have lived and died at this point where it never happened to them.

Being able to distinguish between realistic and unrealistic events also has an effect on your financial standings.
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
These are the sort of things with real value and staying power, even if all of the systems break down. Nothing will ever occur to make them irrelevant.


Like I said earlier, this is the kind of thinking that gets you sub optimal returns. As there were people who felt the depression was going to happen again, there have always been people who though that the world was going to end or was going to the proverbial handbasket. Historically it hasn't happened in the last 200+ years since the revolutionary war. Maybe civil war if you were in the south as confederate money became worthless. But then again it's not like it had a long track record.

Also in theory when the system breaks down, ownership of land also goes away as the court houses also go away. In many revolutions or break downs in government, land is lost or taken by the winning side so saying it's the best in a bad situation isn't backed up by any history.

Fear can cause you to do things that aren't smart financially.

In order...

Germany
Greece
VZ

lots of others, but these you know about even if you live under a rock.


Yeah, but last I checked, that hasn't happened in the US in quite a while. Last depression was in the 30's. There are people who have lived and died at this point where it never happened to them.

Being able to distinguish between realistic and unrealistic events also has an effect on your financial standings.

That's fine. Im not saying it's all doom and gloom, just that I prefer to invest in things and not concepts.
 
Originally Posted by Lubener
Never had a car payment and never will. I will not be a slave to the lender.

That's great for you... unfortunately most Americans don't have $25,000+ cash to buy a new vehicle.

Nice $7000 used vehicle many feel it might have too many problems.
 
Originally Posted by Lubener
Never had a car payment and never will. I will not be a slave to the lender.

Mmm...it's not the lender you are a slave to, but your method of making money. If you buy the vehicle outright, you went without while you saved up. If you go with a lender, you get it asap. The worst a lender can do to you is take it away if you fail to pay...but the guy saving doesnt have one either, anyway, so it's not like he is ahead. Further, when it's all said and done, the guy who waited for however long it took him to come up with the money can then brag that his self imposed going withiut saved him a whopping $2k or 3k or so in interest. Meanwhile he'sin a less safe, less reliable, or nonexistent vehicle. Yay him. Im not jealous of his depravity for months or maybe years in exchange for a few grand.
 
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It simply amazes me how people can live above their means and sleep well at night. Me? I'd be a wreck.

My truck payment is $290 a month (2018 Silverado LT, decent,y equipped, nothing crazy). I think I received something like $12k in factory rebates and ended up paying $33k for it. I put a couple grand down and received $8k on my trade. My old car needed $4k in repairs (tires, brakes, struts, burning a lot of oil, 178,000 miles). I figured it was time to get rid of it. I'll tell you what, even though it was time to let go, I still hate paying that $290 a month, never mind the ridiculous excise tax bill every year ($500 plus), and the higher insurance. Would have been maybe much cheaper to keep the other vehicle, maybe next time I will.

But try living in the US with a family of four nowadays, unless your wife and you are making over $250k a year, things can get tight.

Now I'm talking living to these standards/living like this...take one nice family trip a year, go out to dinner once a week, own a nice 2,000 plus square foot home, own two half decent vehicles, pay for one kid to go to college (or pay half for both), everyone owns a cell phone, each kid plays one sport and we all wear name brand shoes/sneakers and have a half decent wardrobe, with both kids in braces. Good luck.

^^^And that's no extravagant life style. That's no country club, keeping up with the Jones "lifestyle". Tats a decent house, nothing crazy, a couple cars and a vacation. That's working all [censored] week, maybe taking on a few things to make an extra $10k a year and then going out to dinner with the family on a Saturday night. Goin out to dinner with four...having one app, a couple drinks...that's $150-$200. Going food shopping for a family of four is $200 plus a week. That's over $18 a year just on FOOD. That's not going to the movies, which we don't do anymore. That's not stopping for coffee at Dunks, which we don't do. That's not sending out for lunch at work, that's Brown bagging it. That's not getting pizza on a Friday night, it's just going out as a family once a [censored] week so we don't go insane and feel as if we worked all [censored] week for nothing. So we don't feel like we burned the candle at both ends and ran around like morons, for zilch.

Without getting too personal with finances, I make "pretty good money", my wife does pretty well. We're not pulling in $300k a year, but we're doing better than average, we're pretty fortunate. We don't live like rock stars, we pay our bills, we save for retirement. I know people making the same...maybe a little more, maybe a little less and they live way above what I'm doing...out to dinner four times a week, vacation, five times a year, two $50,000 dollar cars in the driveway, summer home, expensive gym membership. I don't know if they're getting money from family or if they're just in debt up to their eyeballs...probably both.
 
Originally Posted by Railrust
It simply amazes me how people can live above their means and sleep well at night. Me? I'd be a wreck.

My truck payment is $290 a month (2018 Silverado LT, decent,y equipped, nothing crazy). I think I received something like $12k in factory rebates and ended up paying $33k for it. I put a couple grand down and received $8k on my trade. My old car needed $4k in repairs (tires, brakes, struts, burning a lot of oil, 178,000 miles). I figured it was time to get rid of it. I'll tell you what, even though it was time to let go, I still hate paying that $290 a month, never mind the ridiculous excise tax bill every year ($500 plus), and the higher insurance. Would have been maybe much cheaper to keep the other vehicle, maybe next time I will.

But try living in the US with a family of four nowadays, unless your wife and you are making over $250k a year, things can get tight.

Now I'm talking living to these standards/living like this...take one nice family trip a year, go out to dinner once a week, own a nice 2,000 plus square foot home, own two half decent vehicles, pay for one kid to go to college (or pay half for both), everyone owns a cell phone, each kid plays one sport and we all wear name brand shoes/sneakers and have a half decent wardrobe, with both kids in braces. Good luck.

^^^And that's no extravagant life style. That's no country club, keeping up with the Jones "lifestyle". Tats a decent house, nothing crazy, a couple cars and a vacation. That's working all [censored] week, maybe taking on a few things to make an extra $10k a year and then going out to dinner with the family on a Saturday night. Goin out to dinner with four...having one app, a couple drinks...that's $150-$200. Going food shopping for a family of four is $200 plus a week. That's over $18 a year just on FOOD. That's not going to the movies, which we don't do anymore. That's not stopping for coffee at Dunks, which we don't do. That's not sending out for lunch at work, that's Brown bagging it. That's not getting pizza on a Friday night, it's just going out as a family once a [censored] week so we don't go insane and feel as if we worked all [censored] week for nothing. So we don't feel like we burned the candle at both ends and ran around like morons, for zilch.

Without getting too personal with finances, I make "pretty good money", my wife does pretty well. We're not pulling in $300k a year, but we're doing better than average, we're pretty fortunate. We don't live like rock stars, we pay our bills, we save for retirement. I know people making the same...maybe a little more, maybe a little less and they live way above what I'm doing...out to dinner four times a week, vacation, five times a year, two $50,000 dollar cars in the driveway, summer home, expensive gym membership. I don't know if they're getting money from family or if they're just in debt up to their eyeballs...probably both.

Everyone has different passions brother
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
.... Yeah, but last I checked, that hasn't happened in the US in quite a while. Last depression was in the 30's. There are people who have lived and died at this point where it never happened to them.

Being able to distinguish between realistic and unrealistic events also has an effect on your financial standings.


While there were pockets of relative prosperity, 2009 - 2016 was a severe depression in this part of fly over country - I've been through recessions, and know the difference.

Perhaps I did not make my point well. I don't worry about the apocalypse ( much ), although if that happened, I would think land has more utility than a statement from Schwab or some other discount house, and brass and lead will be the only metals worth having. It's a matter of controlling your own destiny. I don't worry whether or not the guy holding my stuff is a thief, a Madoff, an inside trader, or is going to run the business into the ground or cook the books. Not my problem Couldn't tell you what the stock market did yesterday or is going to do next week. Don't care.

Some folks say they can't sleep having a car loan. Are you kidding me? How does one sleep at night knowing the crookedest, most selfish and self centered, most avaricious, bunch of people to ever come down the pike, the guys that would sell their grandmother for a buck, the guys that buy companies and look at them as just a line item on a financial - something to be broken up and liquidated, something to have all the cash squeezed out of so they can get a dividend, something to have the bottom line next quarter made better by sending folks jobs to Mexico, or firing R & D so they can get a bonus, these are the people you want to be in bed with, and have in control of your money?

I'll take my chances elsewhere. They don't need my money anyway - they have everybody else's money in their pockets.
 
@ WS6: 'Thing is, mobile homes are a liability, not an asset. Homes should accrue value, not lose it.'

Nonsense. They do indeed, increase in value in the same manner as stick built property.
They build equity if they're set on owned, not leased land. Then they are real estate and not personal property and are taxed as such.

Dave Ramsey is wrong on this and he continues to double down on this BS.

Much rather have a trailer on leased land than an air estate where one owns nothing except the space between the walls and the surfaces inside. And ever increasing HOA fees and property taxes and a nice fat 30 year mortgage.

Even better to have one on my owned land, ground set. Better to have an actual solid material item than paying for air and a legal definition of a housing unit to show for it.
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Originally Posted by Lubener
Never had a car payment and never will. I will not be a slave to the lender.

That's great for you... unfortunately most Americans don't have $25,000+ cash to buy a new vehicle.

Nice $7000 used vehicle many feel it might have too many problems.


If you have money for a monthly payment, you have $27,000 or whatever interest is. When that vehicle is paid off, keep paying YOURSELF what the car payment was. If you can budget when you need a car, budget when the car is paid off. This thinking is the issue, barring any legit expenses (medical emergency or something).
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Lubener
Never had a car payment and never will. I will not be a slave to the lender.

Mmm...it's not the lender you are a slave to, but your method of making money. If you buy the vehicle outright, you went without while you saved up. If you go with a lender, you get it asap. The worst a lender can do to you is take it away if you fail to pay...but the guy saving doesnt have one either, anyway, so it's not like he is ahead. Further, when it's all said and done, the guy who waited for however long it took him to come up with the money can then brag that his self imposed going withiut saved him a whopping $2k or 3k or so in interest. Meanwhile he'sin a less safe, less reliable, or nonexistent vehicle. Yay him. Im not jealous of his depravity for months or maybe years in exchange for a few grand.


$2k or $3k in interest over 5 years? That's up to $50/mth. Take your same mentality and add in a boat, 4 wheeler, small down payment on a house, credit card interest. Now we're talking HUNDREDS per month. But you do you. Enjoy paying $50/mth to the bank instead of taking your family out to eat. Or essentially having a "free" cell phone because you aren't paying interest on your car. Or, buying something outright for $300 twice a year.
 
Since this thread has evolved into a investing one I'll share what I have done and suggested to others.

Everyone has the ability to save. The first thing to do is develop the discipline to do so. Pay yourself first. A lot of people don't know where to start.

First, if you get big refunds from the IRS each year stop and rework your withholding. Ideally you should break even on taxes.

Second, review your personal and social habits. If you smoke that is a huge money drain as well as a health concern. Stop smoking gives you a double win. Same with drinking if you frequent bars daily.

Go to the movies every week? Eat out a lot? Starbucks every day? All these and more can be cut back or eliminated. I'm not saying you should become a hermit but consider other ways to enjoy life. Cable television bill each month? Cut the cord and save a ton of money without giving up stuff you want to watch.

Everybody has the means to live cheaper. It's the discipline that is important. All this money you are saving should be going into your 401/403 or IRA. Even if it's just a small amount, do it anyway. Constantly look for ways to save money.

Way way back in the eighties I started investing with $25 a month. That amount increased over time until I was putting several hundred away. Discipline and staying the course has put me in a much better position now that I'm retired.
 
Well just FYI...

Any family making 250k puts them into the "evil" richest 90th plus percentile percentage of family earners in this nation in all likelihood...

Nothing wrong with that
smile.gif


It's amazing just how low a average income for family is considered "real good" money....

It's no where near high as many think....
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by bbhero
Well just FYI...

Any family making 250k puts them into the "evil" richest 90th plus percentile percentage of family earners in this nation in all likelihood...

Nothing wrong with that
smile.gif


It's amazing just how low a average income for family is considered "real good" money....

It's no where near high as many think....



https://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/income-rank/index.html

There's a link to a percentile rank based on household income. 250k household puts you in the top 4%. 100k puts your household in the top 25%.
 
Originally Posted by Railrust
It simply amazes me how people can live above their means and sleep well at night. Me? I'd be a wreck.

My truck payment is $290 a month (2018 Silverado LT, decent,y equipped, nothing crazy). I think I received something like $12k in factory rebates and ended up paying $33k for it. I put a couple grand down and received $8k on my trade. My old car needed $4k in repairs (tires, brakes, struts, burning a lot of oil, 178,000 miles). I figured it was time to get rid of it. I'll tell you what, even though it was time to let go, I still hate paying that $290 a month, never mind the ridiculous excise tax bill every year ($500 plus), and the higher insurance. Would have been maybe much cheaper to keep the other vehicle, maybe next time I will.

But try living in the US with a family of four nowadays, unless your wife and you are making over $250k a year, things can get tight.

Now I'm talking living to these standards/living like this...take one nice family trip a year, go out to dinner once a week, own a nice 2,000 plus square foot home, own two half decent vehicles, pay for one kid to go to college (or pay half for both), everyone owns a cell phone, each kid plays one sport and we all wear name brand shoes/sneakers and have a half decent wardrobe, with both kids in braces. Good luck.

^^^And that's no extravagant life style. That's no country club, keeping up with the Jones "lifestyle". Tats a decent house, nothing crazy, a couple cars and a vacation. That's working all [censored] week, maybe taking on a few things to make an extra $10k a year and then going out to dinner with the family on a Saturday night. Goin out to dinner with four...having one app, a couple drinks...that's $150-$200. Going food shopping for a family of four is $200 plus a week. That's over $18 a year just on FOOD. That's not going to the movies, which we don't do anymore. That's not stopping for coffee at Dunks, which we don't do. That's not sending out for lunch at work, that's Brown bagging it. That's not getting pizza on a Friday night, it's just going out as a family once a [censored] week so we don't go insane and feel as if we worked all [censored] week for nothing. So we don't feel like we burned the candle at both ends and ran around like morons, for zilch.

Without getting too personal with finances, I make "pretty good money", my wife does pretty well. We're not pulling in $300k a year, but we're doing better than average, we're pretty fortunate. We don't live like rock stars, we pay our bills, we save for retirement. I know people making the same...maybe a little more, maybe a little less and they live way above what I'm doing...out to dinner four times a week, vacation, five times a year, two $50,000 dollar cars in the driveway, summer home, expensive gym membership. I don't know if they're getting money from family or if they're just in debt up to their eyeballs...probably both.



Compared to the rest of the world, or even the 1950s, that's extravagant. Just an FYI.
 
Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
Originally Posted by bbhero
Well just FYI...

Any family making 250k puts them into the "evil" richest 90th plus percentile percentage of family earners in this nation in all likelihood...

Nothing wrong with that
smile.gif


It's amazing just how low a average income for family is considered "real good" money....

It's no where near high as many think....



https://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/income-rank/index.html

There's a link to a percentile rank based on household income. 250k household puts you in the top 4%. 100k puts your household in the top 25%.



Yeah that was off the top of my head...

Figured I was in the ballpark.

In fact my first post response I had it has high as top 95th percentile... Should have trusted my gut
lol.gif
 
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Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Lubener
Never had a car payment and never will. I will not be a slave to the lender.

Mmm...it's not the lender you are a slave to, but your method of making money. If you buy the vehicle outright, you went without while you saved up. If you go with a lender, you get it asap. The worst a lender can do to you is take it away if you fail to pay...but the guy saving doesnt have one either, anyway, so it's not like he is ahead. Further, when it's all said and done, the guy who waited for however long it took him to come up with the money can then brag that his self imposed going withiut saved him a whopping $2k or 3k or so in interest. Meanwhile he'sin a less safe, less reliable, or nonexistent vehicle. Yay him. Im not jealous of his depravity for months or maybe years in exchange for a few grand.


$2k or $3k in interest over 5 years? That's up to $50/mth. Take your same mentality and add in a boat, 4 wheeler, small down payment on a house, credit card interest. Now we're talking HUNDREDS per month. But you do you. Enjoy paying $50/mth to the bank instead of taking your family out to eat. Or essentially having a "free" cell phone because you aren't paying interest on your car. Or, buying something outright for $300 twice a year.

What if...I can afford to do both?
Money isn't a problem...time is. I can make more money, I can't get back all that time I'd have spent driving a hooptie and living in a cheap apartment while saving cash for how I really want to live so I can avoid a few piddly dollars in interest out of principal.

Let me break it down...I spend about 8 hours per week in my vehicle. I can make $300 in about 11-12 hours, after taxes. Why on earth would I deny myself a nice vehicle for a year, to spend 8 hours per week in whatever I WAS in, when literally 2 days out of the year would be required to have a zero-loss acquisition of it vs the cash-buyer? THAT is absurd.
 
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