Hopefully the South Koreans can learn from this.
Are Theta II engines really as bad as their reputation?
- Thread starter Whammo
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wemay
Site Donor 2023
Sorento v6 is not a Theta II.
Originally Posted by DZcreet
Are any Theta II 2.4L owners having good results using 0w-30 or 5w-30? I'm currently using 0w-20 and are considering trying out either 0w-30 or 5w-30 my next change.
I've been running 5W-30 in my 2016 Sonata with the 2.4L engine since I got it last February. There hasn't been any noticeable difference in the car. The OM says it's fine, so I'm using it. I even ran Mobil 1 ESP in it last time. It has an HTHS of 3.5~ish, and there were no ill effects. My OCI is between 3,000 and 3,750 miles, depending on my schedule. I change the filter every time, and use either a Fram Ultra or the Wix XP (whatever is cheaper).
I frequent a Hyundai forum, and some people speculate that the more recent engine failures are from oil consumption issues that can develop around 70~120K miles. Owners running 7K OCIs don't realize they are burning oil (sometimes as much as 1 quart per 1,500 miles), and the damage is done. At least Hyundai/Kia are making it right.
Change your oil often and watch the level, you'll be fine..
Are any Theta II 2.4L owners having good results using 0w-30 or 5w-30? I'm currently using 0w-20 and are considering trying out either 0w-30 or 5w-30 my next change.
I've been running 5W-30 in my 2016 Sonata with the 2.4L engine since I got it last February. There hasn't been any noticeable difference in the car. The OM says it's fine, so I'm using it. I even ran Mobil 1 ESP in it last time. It has an HTHS of 3.5~ish, and there were no ill effects. My OCI is between 3,000 and 3,750 miles, depending on my schedule. I change the filter every time, and use either a Fram Ultra or the Wix XP (whatever is cheaper).
I frequent a Hyundai forum, and some people speculate that the more recent engine failures are from oil consumption issues that can develop around 70~120K miles. Owners running 7K OCIs don't realize they are burning oil (sometimes as much as 1 quart per 1,500 miles), and the damage is done. At least Hyundai/Kia are making it right.
Change your oil often and watch the level, you'll be fine..
Originally Posted by donnyj08
I think it boils down to fuel dilution and low quality lubes mostly. People have been told that cars don't need oil changes as often, which was true pre GDI-TGDI. What most don't realize outside of forums like these is that running 7.5k-10k OCI on the cheapest dealer fill is disastrous for modern GDI engines.
Guys like Wemay use premium lubes every 3-5k and get excellent results.
If everyone ran something with a MB229.5 or 229.51 spec or even a way less stringent A5/B5 spec we wouldn't see the issues at those longer intervals, however most people are buying the $29.99 whatever the dealer puts in and driving 7-10k miles without ever checking the dipstick.
Check out this UOA on a KIA where a dealer is using garbage oil. Imagine this oil being ran 2 times longer than it was...bearing wear would continue to increase.
Recent KIA UOA Posted
I too was one of those that did excellent maintenance of my '12 Turbo Kia Optima. My engine got regular UOAs from both Blackstone and Polaris and I never used a drop of oil. I always did an OCI of ~4K miles and always ran 0W-40 oil (first with M1 Euro and then due to experiments with Castrol Edge Euro, I now run Castrol Edge) and used high quality filters (been running the Fram XG9688 for several years). So I too thought I'd be one of the "lucky ones" to avoid the "rod knock of death". Guess what - I wasn't.
So while very good maintenance IS very important with this engine (T-GDI), the design weakness of apparently the oil pump/balance shaft assembly (it binds up and pumps less oil resulting in rod bearing issues) was the real enemy of many of these Kia/Hyundai engines. They DID resolve it with a new design and all the replacement engines have this improved version (along with improved pistons and rods which proved a bit weak in the early turbo engines). I did get these when I got my new long-block replacement engine back in Dec '18 (totally free). So as I've said before, I'm a very happy camper.
I think it boils down to fuel dilution and low quality lubes mostly. People have been told that cars don't need oil changes as often, which was true pre GDI-TGDI. What most don't realize outside of forums like these is that running 7.5k-10k OCI on the cheapest dealer fill is disastrous for modern GDI engines.
Guys like Wemay use premium lubes every 3-5k and get excellent results.
If everyone ran something with a MB229.5 or 229.51 spec or even a way less stringent A5/B5 spec we wouldn't see the issues at those longer intervals, however most people are buying the $29.99 whatever the dealer puts in and driving 7-10k miles without ever checking the dipstick.
Check out this UOA on a KIA where a dealer is using garbage oil. Imagine this oil being ran 2 times longer than it was...bearing wear would continue to increase.
Recent KIA UOA Posted
I too was one of those that did excellent maintenance of my '12 Turbo Kia Optima. My engine got regular UOAs from both Blackstone and Polaris and I never used a drop of oil. I always did an OCI of ~4K miles and always ran 0W-40 oil (first with M1 Euro and then due to experiments with Castrol Edge Euro, I now run Castrol Edge) and used high quality filters (been running the Fram XG9688 for several years). So I too thought I'd be one of the "lucky ones" to avoid the "rod knock of death". Guess what - I wasn't.
So while very good maintenance IS very important with this engine (T-GDI), the design weakness of apparently the oil pump/balance shaft assembly (it binds up and pumps less oil resulting in rod bearing issues) was the real enemy of many of these Kia/Hyundai engines. They DID resolve it with a new design and all the replacement engines have this improved version (along with improved pistons and rods which proved a bit weak in the early turbo engines). I did get these when I got my new long-block replacement engine back in Dec '18 (totally free). So as I've said before, I'm a very happy camper.
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+1 on oil consumption / watching oil level ... My 2017 2.4L uses about a quart of oil over the sever schedule OCI .
Originally Posted by P7hk9
Originally Posted by DZcreet
Are any Theta II 2.4L owners having good results using 0w-30 or 5w-30? I'm currently using 0w-20 and are considering trying out either 0w-30 or 5w-30 my next change.
I've been running 5W-30 in my 2016 Sonata with the 2.4L engine since I got it last February. There hasn't been any noticeable difference in the car. The OM says it's fine, so I'm using it. I even ran Mobil 1 ESP in it last time. It has an HTHS of 3.5~ish, and there were no ill effects. My OCI is between 3,000 and 3,750 miles, depending on my schedule. I change the filter every time, and use either a Fram Ultra or the Wix XP (whatever is cheaper).
I frequent a Hyundai forum, and some people speculate that the more recent engine failures are from oil consumption issues that can develop around 70~120K miles. Owners running 7K OCIs don't realize they are burning oil (sometimes as much as 1 quart per 1,500 miles), and the damage is done. At least Hyundai/Kia are making it right.
Change your oil often and watch the level, you'll be fine..
Originally Posted by P7hk9
Originally Posted by DZcreet
Are any Theta II 2.4L owners having good results using 0w-30 or 5w-30? I'm currently using 0w-20 and are considering trying out either 0w-30 or 5w-30 my next change.
I've been running 5W-30 in my 2016 Sonata with the 2.4L engine since I got it last February. There hasn't been any noticeable difference in the car. The OM says it's fine, so I'm using it. I even ran Mobil 1 ESP in it last time. It has an HTHS of 3.5~ish, and there were no ill effects. My OCI is between 3,000 and 3,750 miles, depending on my schedule. I change the filter every time, and use either a Fram Ultra or the Wix XP (whatever is cheaper).
I frequent a Hyundai forum, and some people speculate that the more recent engine failures are from oil consumption issues that can develop around 70~120K miles. Owners running 7K OCIs don't realize they are burning oil (sometimes as much as 1 quart per 1,500 miles), and the damage is done. At least Hyundai/Kia are making it right.
Change your oil often and watch the level, you'll be fine..
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by WhizkidTN
Originally Posted by donnyj08
I think it boils down to fuel dilution and low quality lubes mostly. People have been told that cars don't need oil changes as often, which was true pre GDI-TGDI. What most don't realize outside of forums like these is that running 7.5k-10k OCI on the cheapest dealer fill is disastrous for modern GDI engines.
Guys like Wemay use premium lubes every 3-5k and get excellent results.
If everyone ran something with a MB229.5 or 229.51 spec or even a way less stringent A5/B5 spec we wouldn't see the issues at those longer intervals, however most people are buying the $29.99 whatever the dealer puts in and driving 7-10k miles without ever checking the dipstick.
Check out this UOA on a KIA where a dealer is using garbage oil. Imagine this oil being ran 2 times longer than it was...bearing wear would continue to increase.
Recent KIA UOA Posted
I too was one of those that did excellent maintenance of my '12 Turbo Kia Optima. My engine got regular UOAs from both Blackstone and Polaris and I never used a drop of oil. I always did an OCI of ~4K miles and always ran 0W-40 oil (first with M1 Euro and then due to experiments with Castrol Edge Euro, I now run Castrol Edge) and used high quality filters (been running the Fram XG9688 for several years). So I too thought I'd be one of the "lucky ones" to avoid the "rod knock of death". Guess what - I wasn't.
So while very good maintenance IS very important with this engine (T-GDI), the design weakness of apparently the oil pump/balance shaft assembly (it binds up and pumps less oil resulting in rod bearing issues) was the real enemy of many of these Kia/Hyundai engines. They DID resolve it with a new design and all the replacement engines have this improved version (along with improved pistons and rods which proved a bit weak in the early turbo engines). I did get these when I got my new long-block replacement engine back in Dec '18 (totally free). So as I've said before, I'm a very happy camper.
This is an excellent, sobering post. I've mentioned it before, the type of oil will not matter if you are one of the unlucky ones. It's the oil level that matters with this engine. It must be checked every so often. I do so every fuel fill. I'm glad they took care of it for you and you're happy with the end results.
Originally Posted by donnyj08
I think it boils down to fuel dilution and low quality lubes mostly. People have been told that cars don't need oil changes as often, which was true pre GDI-TGDI. What most don't realize outside of forums like these is that running 7.5k-10k OCI on the cheapest dealer fill is disastrous for modern GDI engines.
Guys like Wemay use premium lubes every 3-5k and get excellent results.
If everyone ran something with a MB229.5 or 229.51 spec or even a way less stringent A5/B5 spec we wouldn't see the issues at those longer intervals, however most people are buying the $29.99 whatever the dealer puts in and driving 7-10k miles without ever checking the dipstick.
Check out this UOA on a KIA where a dealer is using garbage oil. Imagine this oil being ran 2 times longer than it was...bearing wear would continue to increase.
Recent KIA UOA Posted
I too was one of those that did excellent maintenance of my '12 Turbo Kia Optima. My engine got regular UOAs from both Blackstone and Polaris and I never used a drop of oil. I always did an OCI of ~4K miles and always ran 0W-40 oil (first with M1 Euro and then due to experiments with Castrol Edge Euro, I now run Castrol Edge) and used high quality filters (been running the Fram XG9688 for several years). So I too thought I'd be one of the "lucky ones" to avoid the "rod knock of death". Guess what - I wasn't.
So while very good maintenance IS very important with this engine (T-GDI), the design weakness of apparently the oil pump/balance shaft assembly (it binds up and pumps less oil resulting in rod bearing issues) was the real enemy of many of these Kia/Hyundai engines. They DID resolve it with a new design and all the replacement engines have this improved version (along with improved pistons and rods which proved a bit weak in the early turbo engines). I did get these when I got my new long-block replacement engine back in Dec '18 (totally free). So as I've said before, I'm a very happy camper.
This is an excellent, sobering post. I've mentioned it before, the type of oil will not matter if you are one of the unlucky ones. It's the oil level that matters with this engine. It must be checked every so often. I do so every fuel fill. I'm glad they took care of it for you and you're happy with the end results.
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I'll ask the dreaded question. Which oil would those here recommend for a 2.4L Theta II ?
Oil's I've ran already.
PP&PUP-0w-20 and 5w20
Mobil AP and EP 0w20 and 5w20
My next oci is for January. I'm considering Pennzoil Maximum Power 0w-30 or just PPPP 5w30.
I've not yet ran a 30 weight but want to.
Oil's I've ran already.
PP&PUP-0w-20 and 5w20
Mobil AP and EP 0w20 and 5w20
My next oci is for January. I'm considering Pennzoil Maximum Power 0w-30 or just PPPP 5w30.
I've not yet ran a 30 weight but want to.
Originally Posted by DZcreet
I'll ask the dreaded question. Which oil would those here recommend for a 2.4L Theta II ?
Oil's I've ran already.
PP&PUP-0w-20 and 5w20
Mobil AP and EP 0w20 and 5w20
My next oci is for January. I'm considering Pennzoil Maximum Power 0w-30 or just PPPP 5w30.
I've not yet ran a 30 weight but want to.
That's a good question. I don't know why Kia doesn't let users run 0w oils but if they did I would run the 0w30 in the winter. As it stands I would just run a 5w30. Conventional/synthetic/brand isn't too important as long as the OCI is sensible. Considering you shouldn't go longer than 4-5k on the OCI I would just use a good conventional/synthetic blend.
I'll ask the dreaded question. Which oil would those here recommend for a 2.4L Theta II ?
Oil's I've ran already.
PP&PUP-0w-20 and 5w20
Mobil AP and EP 0w20 and 5w20
My next oci is for January. I'm considering Pennzoil Maximum Power 0w-30 or just PPPP 5w30.
I've not yet ran a 30 weight but want to.
That's a good question. I don't know why Kia doesn't let users run 0w oils but if they did I would run the 0w30 in the winter. As it stands I would just run a 5w30. Conventional/synthetic/brand isn't too important as long as the OCI is sensible. Considering you shouldn't go longer than 4-5k on the OCI I would just use a good conventional/synthetic blend.
Originally Posted by Whammo
Do you really have to keep the oil to the full line to be safe? I have had trouble keeping it that high. Usually it goes down about half way in a week or two and then hardly moves from that point...
Hyundai's first "bandaid" for this problem was switching to an orange dipstick with different markings on it.
So it raised the capacity of the engine oil from around 5 quarts to around 5.25 quarts.
I think part of the problem is people not lifting the hood to check the oil.
Do you really have to keep the oil to the full line to be safe? I have had trouble keeping it that high. Usually it goes down about half way in a week or two and then hardly moves from that point...
Hyundai's first "bandaid" for this problem was switching to an orange dipstick with different markings on it.
So it raised the capacity of the engine oil from around 5 quarts to around 5.25 quarts.
I think part of the problem is people not lifting the hood to check the oil.
Reading all this, great thread. I'm always surprised at people who never or seldom check oil level. Glad my Tiguan has a "Low Oil Level" warning light, and kia-hyundai ought to get that, for all they are going through with this grand fiasco.
This has got to have the execs at this company pounding the table a lot. Engineering processes, design, manufacturing, all have failed to some extent. Many tiger teams attacking it.
All one can do is run the best oil you can, and I'd put in Mobil1 Annual Protection or Castrol Edge Extended Performance, 5w30 weight, Fram Ultra oil filter, and pray.
Change every 7,500 miles or 1 year like GM specs (only when using great oil like that).
Is the problem gone? 2016+ years OK now?
This has got to have the execs at this company pounding the table a lot. Engineering processes, design, manufacturing, all have failed to some extent. Many tiger teams attacking it.
All one can do is run the best oil you can, and I'd put in Mobil1 Annual Protection or Castrol Edge Extended Performance, 5w30 weight, Fram Ultra oil filter, and pray.
Change every 7,500 miles or 1 year like GM specs (only when using great oil like that).
Is the problem gone? 2016+ years OK now?
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Originally Posted by DZcreet
Is there anywhere in the USA a person can order the group IV synthetics sold in the European market?
Mobil1 Extended Performance and Annual Protection in the 0w20 weight are almost all-GroupIV (PAO). The 5w30 in those same oils are only around 6% PAO though still very capable oils.
If you really want an all-PAO oil, blauparts.com has Ravenol dxg 5w30. ...... I know Total ( https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...artz-0w20-acea-c5-porsche-vw-requirement ) Quartz Ineo Long Life 0w20 is all-PAO. Also LiquiMoly toptec 6200 ( https://products.liqui-moly.com/top-tec-6200-0w-20-7.html ) is all pao too.
ecstuning.com rmeuropean.com fcpeuro.com and other websites will ship to you, shop for best prices. They aren't typically very cheap.
...google: motul specific 508 0w-20 .....and its all pao, google shopping has it somewhere... https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/specific-508-00-509-00-0w20
Is there anywhere in the USA a person can order the group IV synthetics sold in the European market?
Mobil1 Extended Performance and Annual Protection in the 0w20 weight are almost all-GroupIV (PAO). The 5w30 in those same oils are only around 6% PAO though still very capable oils.
If you really want an all-PAO oil, blauparts.com has Ravenol dxg 5w30. ...... I know Total ( https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...artz-0w20-acea-c5-porsche-vw-requirement ) Quartz Ineo Long Life 0w20 is all-PAO. Also LiquiMoly toptec 6200 ( https://products.liqui-moly.com/top-tec-6200-0w-20-7.html ) is all pao too.
ecstuning.com rmeuropean.com fcpeuro.com and other websites will ship to you, shop for best prices. They aren't typically very cheap.
...google: motul specific 508 0w-20 .....and its all pao, google shopping has it somewhere... https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/specific-508-00-509-00-0w20
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Conventional, Synthetic, Blends....it doesn't matter in my opinion. As another poster said earlier, his maintenance items were top notch and his failed. My neighbor has a 2011 GDI 2.4 Optima with well over 200k miles on plain old quick lube $19.99 specials. He changes according to the 3000 mile sticker they place on his windshield. I think changing early and checking the level often are the main objectives for those problem years. Running a Synthetic won't hurt though.
Originally Posted by wemay
Conventional, Synthetic, Blends....it doesn't matter in my opinion. As another poster said earlier, his maintenance items were top notch and his failed. My neighbor has a 2011 GDI 2.4 Optima with well over 200k miles on plain old quick lube $19.99 specials. He changes according to the 3000 mile sticker they place on his windshield. I think changing early and checking the level often are the main objectives for those problem years. Running a Synthetic won't hurt though.
Great post wemay... The other one above this one too was outstanding as well..
Conventional, Synthetic, Blends....it doesn't matter in my opinion. As another poster said earlier, his maintenance items were top notch and his failed. My neighbor has a 2011 GDI 2.4 Optima with well over 200k miles on plain old quick lube $19.99 specials. He changes according to the 3000 mile sticker they place on his windshield. I think changing early and checking the level often are the main objectives for those problem years. Running a Synthetic won't hurt though.
Great post wemay... The other one above this one too was outstanding as well..
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*Not that anyone would check , but I believe 5W or 10W30 are the only 30 weight oils approved in your OM ... Of those you listed it would be hard to find fault with the PPPP 5W30 .
Originally Posted by DZcreet
I'll ask the dreaded question. Which oil would those here recommend for a 2.4L Theta II ?
Oil's I've ran already.
PP&PUP-0w-20 and 5w20
Mobil AP and EP 0w20 and 5w20
My next oci is for January. I'm considering Pennzoil Maximum Power 0w-30 or just PPPP 5w30.
I've not yet ran a 30 weight but want to.
Originally Posted by DZcreet
I'll ask the dreaded question. Which oil would those here recommend for a 2.4L Theta II ?
Oil's I've ran already.
PP&PUP-0w-20 and 5w20
Mobil AP and EP 0w20 and 5w20
My next oci is for January. I'm considering Pennzoil Maximum Power 0w-30 or just PPPP 5w30.
I've not yet ran a 30 weight but want to.
*Interesting to note that a few years ago Hyundai / Kia went from the yellow oil dip stick to the orange dip stick which when you compare the full fill lines side by side appears to be close to 1/2 qrt.. or so more than the previous dipstick ... This was a way to help ensure customers of the Theta II kept that oil level up .
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Interesting to note that a few years ago Hyundai / Kia went from the yellow oil dip stick to the orange dip stick which when you compare the full fill lines side by side appears to be close to 1/2 qrt.. or so more than the previous dipstick ... This was a way to help ensure customers of the Theta II kept that oil level up .
This is spot on^
Which is why I mentioned oil level being paramount regardless of oil used. If I couldn't find Synthetics at such great prices, I'd run Conventional since I change at severe service intervals. At these intervals I've yet to show consumption (knock wood). Plus the fact that the 2.4 is a 2018 with the updated engine.
The 2.0T gets Synthetic for other reasons. But it too has had a couple runs of 15w40 and 10w30 Conventional. It's nearing 200K miles on 3000 mile intervals.
*Interesting to note that a few years ago Hyundai / Kia went from the yellow oil dip stick to the orange dip stick which when you compare the full fill lines side by side appears to be close to 1/2 qrt.. or so more than the previous dipstick ... This was a way to help ensure customers of the Theta II kept that oil level up .
This is spot on^
Which is why I mentioned oil level being paramount regardless of oil used. If I couldn't find Synthetics at such great prices, I'd run Conventional since I change at severe service intervals. At these intervals I've yet to show consumption (knock wood). Plus the fact that the 2.4 is a 2018 with the updated engine.
The 2.0T gets Synthetic for other reasons. But it too has had a couple runs of 15w40 and 10w30 Conventional. It's nearing 200K miles on 3000 mile intervals.
*My 2017 2.4L GDI uses up to 1 qrt. of oil during the server service schedule unfortunately where as all other vehicles in my signature don't burn a drop . I sometimes would think that switching over to synthetic oil at 1,000 miles on this new Sonata might be the reason until I remind myself there are new higher end vehicles that ship from the factory with synthetic oil .
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Interesting to note that a few years ago Hyundai / Kia went from the yellow oil dip stick to the orange dip stick which when you compare the full fill lines side by side appears to be close to 1/2 qrt.. or so more than the previous dipstick ... This was a way to help ensure customers of the Theta II kept that oil level up .
This is spot on^
Which is why I mentioned oil level being paramount regardless of oil used. If I couldn't find Synthetics at such great prices, I'd run Conventional since I change at severe service intervals. At these intervals I've yet to show consumption (knock wood). Plus the fact that the 2.4 is a 2018 with the updated engine.
The 2.0T gets Synthetic for other reasons. But it too has had a couple runs of 15w40 and 10w30 Conventional. It's nearing 200K miles on 3000 mile intervals.
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Interesting to note that a few years ago Hyundai / Kia went from the yellow oil dip stick to the orange dip stick which when you compare the full fill lines side by side appears to be close to 1/2 qrt.. or so more than the previous dipstick ... This was a way to help ensure customers of the Theta II kept that oil level up .
This is spot on^
Which is why I mentioned oil level being paramount regardless of oil used. If I couldn't find Synthetics at such great prices, I'd run Conventional since I change at severe service intervals. At these intervals I've yet to show consumption (knock wood). Plus the fact that the 2.4 is a 2018 with the updated engine.
The 2.0T gets Synthetic for other reasons. But it too has had a couple runs of 15w40 and 10w30 Conventional. It's nearing 200K miles on 3000 mile intervals.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Hi Chris,
I might get that checked out at the dealership. That seems like a lot to me.
I might get that checked out at the dealership. That seems like a lot to me.
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