Are Subaru engines made of glass?

[IndyIan]

BMW has X-Drive and Audi has Quattro, both produce sedans with traditional engines (non-boxer) and AWD. Dodge/Chrysler had(have?) an AWD version of the Charger/300, which is a large RWD sedan platform, I believe there have been others.

It's not that Subaru is the only game in town, it's that they've made it their only game, and have subsequently become synonymous with AWD despite Audi being at it for longer (Quattro has been around since 1980, full-time SAWD didn't come from Subaru until 1986).


GM has done some weird crap. Who else, with a mid-sized SUV, has gone this route? The WK and WKII both managed to do AWD with a variety of engine options without this nonsense, as did Ford with the Explorer. The Trailblazer and Envoy with this setup really had me like
View attachment 188533

It seems Xdrive, and the Chrysler and Cadillac rwd based cars also puts the front driveshaft through the oil pan, Audi car quattro is the same layout as Subaru uses, therefore no inline 6 engines for them either, as the engine is in front of the front axle.
Many RWD based SUV's don't worry about CoG that much and keep things a bit simpler and just put the engine over the front axle and I think some of the Audi SUV's do this too.
The subaru and Audi car AWD setup allows longer front equal half shafts which in theory allows more suspension travel. The through the oil pan systems need to have the front diff beside the engine so the half shaft lengths are a bit limited.

 

[Speedy3861]

Never owned or driven a Subaru, been pretty much a Honda guy for almost 40 years. Had good luck and good service with few problems over the years, only left sitting once by a battery. As of late, Honda has had some issues with their 1.5t engines, like all Small-displacement, Turbocharged engines using 0w20 oils, primarily oil dilution, yet stories of failure are few. Honda is in the same pinch that other manufacturers are facing. Getting low emissions, adequate power, good mileage as well as driveability and longevity is tough challenge. If a brand checks most of your boxes and has a known issue, you've got to go in with a plan to deal with it and, in my case, a good dealer and a knowledgeable technician. My 19 Civic Touring Coupe had NO OD issues, did UOA's and changed at 5k intervals. When we got 2020 CRV'S, my wife's, which is always short-tripped (just turned 11k at 4 yrs) had an immediate and obvious problem with OD, solution was changing every six months and using 5W-30 EP. Runs fine with no problems. I'm not driving myself crazy doing UOAs at $50 a pop on my 2023 Civic Touring Sedan, just OCI's between 4-5k with 0w20 EP as advised by my Honda Master-Certified Technician who also drives a Civic. There's a lot of folks who follow Hondas MM, use the bulk oils at the dealer and run 7-8k intervals with no issues. As much as I'm concerned and pro-active, there are a CRAP-TON of 1 5t engines out there with over 100k on them, trouble free. Honda's CVT is largely trouble free, I do a spill and fill every 30k and have no concerns. One thing I'm probably obsessive about is using Toptier fuels only. Other brands I'd consider, probably Mazda or Toyota. Every manufacturer makes a clinker once in a while.

 

[Thermo1223]

GM has done some weird crap. Who else, with a mid-sized SUV, has gone this route? The WK and WKII both managed to do AWD with a variety of engine options without this nonsense, as did Ford with the Explorer. The Trailblazer and Envoy with this setup really had me like
View attachment 188533

My biggest pet peeve with our Envoy was the Auto 4WD was merely a crude front axle disconnect that felt like the front end would pop off every time it engaged.

The solution was simple, keep it in 2WD unless otherwise needed.

 

[OVERKILL]

It seems Xdrive, and the Chrysler and Cadillac rwd based cars also puts the front driveshaft through the oil pan, Audi car quattro is the same layout as Subaru uses, therefore no inline 6 engines for them either, as the engine is in front of the front axle.

The 300 is interesting, because the V8 almost looks like an "ear" on the pan (but I don't believe that to actually be the case):

The regular pan is very shallow in that spot:

While the Pentastar has the shaft clearly going through the pan:

Not sure about BMW, if they all go through the pan or not, maybe @edyvw would know?

Audi I don't think ever did i6 engines, they did use a VR6 though, IIRC, and you can get Quattro with a V8 and the shaft doesn't go through the pan from what Google is showing me.

Many RWD based SUV's don't worry about CoG that much and keep things a bit simpler and just put the engine over the front axle and I think some of the Audi SUV's do this too.

I'd say most RWD-based SUV's do, I think GM with the Envoy/Trailblazer are the exception, an answer to a question nobody asked, lol.

The subaru and Audi car AWD setup allows longer front equal half shafts which in theory allows more suspension travel. The through the oil pan systems need to have the front diff beside the engine so the half shaft lengths are a bit limited.

Yep, but I think Audi is probably the best example of what I was trying to point out here, that being that Subaru isn't the only one offering this style of AWD, though I appreciate that Audi, generally, is a bit more expensive.

 

[edyvw]

The 300 is interesting, because the V8 almost looks like an "ear" on the pan (but I don't believe that to actually be the case):
View attachment 188591View attachment 188592View attachment 188593
The regular pan is very shallow in that spot:
View attachment 188595

While the Pentastar has the shaft clearly going through the pan:
View attachment 188594

Not sure about BMW, if they all go through the pan or not, maybe @edyvw would know?

Audi I don't think ever did i6 engines, they did use a VR6 though, IIRC, and you can get Quattro with a V8 and the shaft doesn't go through the pan from what Google is showing me.

I'd say most RWD-based SUV's do, I think GM with the Envoy/Trailblazer are the exception, an answer to a question nobody asked, lol.

Yep, but I think Audi is probably the best example of what I was trying to point out here, that being that Subaru isn't the only one offering this style of AWD, though I appreciate that Audi, generally, is a bit more expensive.

BMW front axles go through the oil pan. When BMW was seriously getting into AWD in 90's (after experimenting in mid 80's) there was initial thinking to go Torsen like Audi. But the problem would be I6. It would sit too far to the front completely messing up weight distribution, which is for BMW one of the key performance variables. So, BMW utilizes transfer cases and bcs. axle goes through the pan (which also serves as a baffle) it allowed them to keep the engine in the back the same as in RWD models. Audi never had I6 (they had/have I5) but there is a reason why understeer in Audi is called "Audisteer." Emphasis on AWD, and particularly Torsen AWD, demands engines that sit forward of an axle.

 

[meep]

We’ve had 3 or 4 Subarus in our family. I think 4. We did have an HG issue on one of them, a normally driven outback, and the dealer took care of the problem well with no complaints from the family.

and I agree, they got true AWD right in the 2 I had. Actually, one was true center-differential AWD and the other was older with pushbutton 4Hi.

one thing that hasn’t come up, which is probably a large contributor to their snow prowess, is weight distribution. My wagon was 53% front and 47% rear. This is ZO6 and M3 territory. The balance was superb and extremely tossable. The body english to handle these cars, whether it is hoonage or simply managing a 3 hour snow drive home in panicky traffic, is rallycross worthy.

as far as engine oddities, yes mine were quirky. Even trying to understand inconsistent oil consumption patterns was something i never figured out. My theory is that they didn’t get what Toyota grasped early one - sturdier aluminum. Toyota figured out how to perfect low-porosity aluminum back in their beginnings. It’s why their engines hold up so well with cylinder wear and sealing surfaces. Subaru on the other hand sweats coolant through its pores like an Englishman sweats curry at an Indian Buffet. Subaru issued a tsb years ago to use a mild dose of bars leaks radiator sealer to reduce the smell. I was there. Anyway, I suspect their aluminum wasn’t as sturdy, which contributed to head seating issues among other things.

I don’t live in the snow belt any longer. And if I did, I think I’d be 98% as able to get home in a less desirable Haldex system, and that would be ok. Heck, my FWD S60 was surprisingly excellent in the snow, and I really don’t know how it was so good.

 

[edyvw]

We’ve had 3 or 4 Subarus in our family. I think 4. We did have an HG issue on one of them, a normally driven outback, and the dealer took care of the problem well with no complaints from the family.

and I agree, they got true AWD right in the 2 I had. Actually, one was true center-differential AWD and the other was older with pushbutton 4Hi.

one thing that hasn’t come up, which is probably a large contributor to their snow prowess, is weight distribution. My wagon was 53% front and 47% rear. This is ZO6 and M3 territory. The balance was superb and extremely tossable. The body english to handle these cars, whether it is hoonage or simply managing a 3 hour snow drive home in panicky traffic, is rallycross worthy.

as far as engine oddities, yes mine were quirky. Even trying to understand inconsistent oil consumption patterns was something i never figured out. My theory is that they didn’t get what Toyota grasped early one - sturdier aluminum. Toyota figured out how to perfect low-porosity aluminum back in their beginnings. It’s why their engines hold up so well with cylinder wear and sealing surfaces. Subaru on the other hand sweats coolant through its pores like an Englishman sweats curry at an Indian Buffet. Subaru issued a tsb years ago to use a mild dose of bars leaks radiator sealer to reduce the smell. I was there. Anyway, I suspect their aluminum wasn’t as sturdy, which contributed to head seating issues among other things.

I don’t live in the snow belt any longer. And if I did, I think I’d be 98% as able to get home in a less desirable Haldex system, and that would be ok. Heck, my FWD S60 was surprisingly excellent in the snow, and I really don’t know how it was so good.

Sorry, but that is not M3 or Z06 territory. That is closer to Audi territory (55%). 3-4% is A LOT! M3 is 49% in front and some models are 48% (CSL etc). It is really not that easy to move 1-2% to the rear.
Considering length of 4cyl engines in Subaru, that is really not any kind of an achievement.

 

[JimPghPA]

Honda bad automatic transmissions? Good since 2007. Known for bad paint and uncomfortable seats

The seats in my 2016 Honda CRV EX are cloth and they are pretty comfortable. However I will agree that the paint chips easy. And there's plenty of minor scratches in the area where you reach your hand in to unlock the vehicle.

 

[chris719]

And abuse by the owners is the marque’s fault?

Well, if you’re gonna put your engine in sporty cars you should have a reasonable expectation of hard use. Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, the Hemis, 370Z / VQ, VW, Supras/BMWs, Audi, Porsche, etc. all get heavily modified and beat on. None of them seem as fragile or as prone to oil starvation as the FA motors. If the engine is only good for a Forester then modify the oiling system before dropping it into a GT86. The Evo X had a pretty good track record as well in that price class.

We all know tuners are gonna blow up some engines. Plenty of BMW N54s with chunks of piston missing due to vape bros with laptops. The NA failures are harder to rationalize for me. Don’t get me wrong, the Germans have had some real design fails too, but you usually get a little more out of those engines as well.

Subaru is Japanese yet if you compare a WRX and a GTI I’m going to feel better about that VW motor. Probably the first reliability comparison they’ve ever won .

 

[Rust_Belt_Pete]

Well, if you’re gonna put your engine in sporty cars you should have a reasonable expectation of hard use. Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, the Hemis, 370Z / VQ, VW, Supras/BMWs, Audi, Porsche, etc. all get heavily modified and beat on. None of them seem as fragile or as prone to oil starvation as the FA motors. If the engine is only good for a Forester then modify the oiling system before dropping it into a GT86. The Evo X had a pretty good track record as well in that price class.

We all know tuners are gonna blow up some engines. Plenty of BMW N54s with chunks of piston missing due to vape bros with laptops. The NA failures are harder to rationalize for me. Don’t get me wrong, the Germans have had some real design fails too, but you usually get a little more out of those engines as well.

Subaru is Japanese yet if you compare a WRX and a GTI I’m going to feel better about that VW motor. Probably the first reliability comparison they’ve ever won .

I have to disagree with you there on some points and agree on one point. New 2.4 motors by subaru for WRX and 86 have oiling issues, especially on the track so yeah that is a serious reliability issue.
WRX, GTI, Ford focus all will have issues once you start cranking up the boost to unreasonable numbers which is easily achievable with modern technology. All of these cars can be had for around 32 grand last I checked.
Mustant 5.0? BMW/Supra? We easily get in the the high 40s and mid 50s in price.


WRX is a powerful engine in as econo crap box. The front end may look cool but by the end of the day it is an econo crap box with AWD and a boosted engine.
Mustang? Supra? Dedicated sports cars with he price tag to match.
Give me the money in the price difference and ill throw in a billet short block reworded heads that will eat the stock mustang all day long and will last.

I can walk out the door with a supra for 55k right now. I can walk out with a WRX for 33 grand right now.
Subaru is a fun daily driver that is VERY affordable.
Supra is a dedicated sports car.

 

[edyvw]

I have to disagree with you there on some points and agree on one point. New 2.4 motors by subaru for WRX and 86 have oiling issues, especially on the track so yeah that is a serious reliability issue.
WRX, GTI, Ford focus all will have issues once you start cranking up the boost to unreasonable numbers which is easily achievable with modern technology. All of these cars can be had for around 32 grand last I checked.
Mustant 5.0? BMW/Supra? We easily get in the the high 40s and mid 50s in price.


WRX is a powerful engine in as econo crap box. The front end may look cool but by the end of the day it is an econo crap box with AWD and a boosted engine.
Mustang? Supra? Dedicated sports cars with he price tag to match.
Give me the money in the price difference and ill throw in a billet short block reworded heads that will eat the stock mustang all day long and will last.

I can walk out the door with a supra for 55k right now. I can walk out with a WRX for 33 grand right now.
Subaru is a fun daily driver that is VERY affordable.
Supra is a dedicated sports car.

I am having a hard time following how is this a problem.
The point is unreasonable. Most of those people do not race, or track vehicles. They boost engines to "race" at night on local interstate or hwy. Subaru's current engine issues are IMO the biggest failure of any company in the last decade. For naturally aspirated engines to have such issues, and for both Subaru and Toyota not to address it so far, is actually, an achievement.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Well, if you’re gonna put your engine in sporty cars you should have a reasonable expectation of hard use. Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, the Hemis, 370Z / VQ, VW, Supras/BMWs, Audi, Porsche, etc. all get heavily modified and beat on. None of them seem as fragile or as prone to oil starvation as the FA motors. If the engine is only good for a Forester then modify the oiling system before dropping it into a GT86. The Evo X had a pretty good track record as well in that price class.

We all know tuners are gonna blow up some engines. Plenty of BMW N54s with chunks of piston missing due to vape bros with laptops. The NA failures are harder to rationalize for me. Don’t get me wrong, the Germans have had some real design fails too, but you usually get a little more out of those engines as well.

Subaru is Japanese yet if you compare a WRX and a GTI I’m going to feel better about that VW motor. Probably the first reliability comparison they’ve ever won .

I don’t really follow, nor personally care about the FA engine issues. I know it exists with at least some validity, but I’d never personally buy a 2wd Subaru so I’m safe on that front. I’m going to blame it on the Toyota ownership cutting corners to save a few bucks on a properly-designed oil pan.

 

[edyvw]

I don’t really follow, nor personally care about the FA engine issues. I know it exists with at least some validity, but I’d never personally buy a 2wd Subaru so I’m safe on that front. I’m going to blame it on the Toyota ownership cutting corners to save a few bucks on a properly-designed oil pan.

Ah talking about gaslighting.
Subaru made an engine! That is where the story starts, and well, ends. And there is no questionable validity. The issue is well-known and probably the most told story on tracks. I think somehow, somehow, it is a bigger story than who runs which pads on the track. They made a vehicle that had been waited for by enthusiasts for some time, a cheap, light, fun car that won't break a wallet. And somehow, they blew it. I think Toyota, trying to avoid expensive know-how from BMW, is supposed to go to cheap know-how, at Mazda.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Ah talking about gaslighting.
Subaru made an engine! That is where the story starts, and well, ends. And there is no questionable validity. The issue is well-known and probably the most told story on tracks. I think somehow, somehow, it is a bigger story than who runs which pads on the track. They made a vehicle that had been waited for by enthusiasts for some time, a cheap, light, fun car that won't break a wallet. And somehow, they blew it. I think Toyota, trying to avoid expensive know-how from BMW, is supposed to go to cheap know-how, at Mazda.

I’m not gaslighting. Clearly acknowledged I’ve heard of it, but won’t affect me because I’m not interested in a 2WD model. And I pointed finger at Toyota since it’s the only shared model, and the only one that suffers this issue.

 

[edyvw]

I’m not gaslighting. Clearly acknowledged I’ve heard of it, but won’t affect me because I’m not interested in a 2WD model. And I pointed finger at Toyota since it’s the only shared model, and the only one that suffers this issue.

Toyota bought the finished product! It was Subaru's responsibility to deliver that. It does not affect you, but we are talking about Subaru. It is only one that suffers issues, bcs. it is one that is clearly designed as a "track" car. However, in reality, it is far from it.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Toyota bought the finished product! It was Subaru's responsibility to deliver that. It does not affect you, but we are talking about Subaru. It is only one that suffers issues, bcs. it is one that is clearly designed as a "track" car. However, in reality, it is far from it.

“Bought the finished product”, you say? Considering 2/3 of the “clones” wore Toyota badges… kind of a hard sell.

On topic side, though, it appears solutions like the Killer B oil pans fix the problem, so shame on both companies for not implementing the easy fix.

 

[edyvw]

“Bought the finished product”, you say? Considering 2/3 of the “clones” wore Toyota badges… kind of a hard sell.

On topic side, though, it appears solutions like the Killer B oil pans fix the problem, so shame on both companies for not implementing the easy fix.

Lol, Subaru or Toyota, both have the same problem! It is a junk engine, period, made by Subaru. It is just that of all the problems, 2/3 wear Toyota badges. That is it.
What you quoted knows everyone. 2011 model did not have such extensive issues. Not that it was a formidable car by any means. The current version was an attempt to offer something more formidable for folks who do not have money to go supercharging or do not want to go crazy with it. It was designed to offer a nice, cheap, all-around vehicle to be a fun daily and fun track car. Fun daily is not an issue. The fun track is a BIG issue as it simply, cannot survive.

 

[Rust_Belt_Pete]

New 2.4 engine has oil starvation issues at the bearing closest to the firewall. Pressure regularly drops to around 4 psi cornering. Thats where the majority of failures happen. Not sure if it is a baffling issue or something else.

 

[edyvw]

New 2.4 engine has oil starvation issues at the bearing closest to the firewall. Pressure regularly drops to around 4 psi cornering. Thats where the majority of failures happen. Not sure if it is a baffling issue or something else.

Not sure if would different oil pan solve the issue. Usually, when this happens, a secondary oil line is necessary. Dedicated track cars should have two pick up lines.

 

[chris719]

Not sure if would different oil pan solve the issue. Usually, when this happens, a secondary oil line is necessary. Dedicated track cars should have two pick up lines.

Yes, it was tested on YouTube and didn’t help unfortunately.