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- Jan 26, 2011
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ROTFLMAO The poor OP is sure getting abused. She should probably quite while she's behind.
ARCHOIL Pics after week and half
- Thread starter domer10
- Start date
- Status
Although I understand domer10's attempt here to provide evidence to substantiate his claims I don't feel he's been objective in his addition and testing of the new product and it's so called cleaning abilities.
We all know m1 0w-40 to be exceptional as far as it's ability to clean up an engine. My only thought is how do we know it's the archoil that is responsible and not the use of the oil itself.
The testing regimen was flawed. To get anywhere with this crowd you need to start small,then add miles,take pics,add additive,more miles,take pics etc.
Try 10000 miles on just oil. Monitor fuel consumption,take pics of deposits.
Add additive and repeat for another 10000 miles.
And that's the bare minimum for anyone to even give this stuff more than a few seconds of thought.
I've been there with mos2 already. I amassed 15000 miles,posting every single mpg figure at every fill up and still there are those who called hogwash,and I don't blame them to be honest.
In the end if you like the stuff domer then keep using it. Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
We all know m1 0w-40 to be exceptional as far as it's ability to clean up an engine. My only thought is how do we know it's the archoil that is responsible and not the use of the oil itself.
The testing regimen was flawed. To get anywhere with this crowd you need to start small,then add miles,take pics,add additive,more miles,take pics etc.
Try 10000 miles on just oil. Monitor fuel consumption,take pics of deposits.
Add additive and repeat for another 10000 miles.
And that's the bare minimum for anyone to even give this stuff more than a few seconds of thought.
I've been there with mos2 already. I amassed 15000 miles,posting every single mpg figure at every fill up and still there are those who called hogwash,and I don't blame them to be honest.
In the end if you like the stuff domer then keep using it. Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Actually its a lot of effort for no gain, unless you own the company, or get a kickback for posting positively.
Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Actually its a lot of effort for no gain, unless you own the company, or get a kickback for posting positively.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Actually its a lot of effort for no gain, unless you own the company, or get a kickback for posting positively.
You mean those kickback things really happen.
Sign me up.
You mean I've coulda been getting paid.
Where's the synlube email addy?
Hehehe
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Actually its a lot of effort for no gain, unless you own the company, or get a kickback for posting positively.
You mean those kickback things really happen.
Sign me up.
You mean I've coulda been getting paid.
Where's the synlube email addy?
Hehehe
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Actually its a lot of effort for no gain, unless you own the company, or get a kickback for posting positively.
You mean those kickback things really happen.
Sign me up.
You mean I've coulda been getting paid.
Where's the synlube email addy?
Hehehe
LOL I'll leave it at that.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Forget trying to prove anything to anyone,because honestly it's a lot of effort for minimal gain.
Actually its a lot of effort for no gain, unless you own the company, or get a kickback for posting positively.
You mean those kickback things really happen.
Sign me up.
You mean I've coulda been getting paid.
Where's the synlube email addy?
Hehehe
LOL I'll leave it at that.
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
That sums it up but leaves me wondering. Is paid for testimony [either cash payment or free product] considered anecdotal? Or would it be called paid for testimony? LOL
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
That sums it up but leaves me wondering. Is paid for testimony [either cash payment or free product] considered anecdotal? Or would it be called paid for testimony? LOL
I remember snake oil salesmen at the Colorado State Fair. This one guy had all kinds of gold (or allegedly gold) necklaces and he was supposedly a spectator along with everybody else watching the snake oil show but he was obviously a plant. He was saying how yes he had used the stuff they were promoting and it worked for him. I almost felt like laughing out loud. I guess all of the (gold?) necklaces were supposed to convince people he was legit. He said he had used the stuff in his Corvette.
They were trying to sell some trashy oil supplement that has since disappeared.
Their office was supposedly in Colorado Springs and I happened to be there one day and I decided to check out their operation. They had a fly-by-night office in this old building where there were other offices also. They apparently were on lunch break. I looked into the office and it looked like they could pack up and leave in one hour.
They were trying to sell some trashy oil supplement that has since disappeared.
Their office was supposedly in Colorado Springs and I happened to be there one day and I decided to check out their operation. They had a fly-by-night office in this old building where there were other offices also. They apparently were on lunch break. I looked into the office and it looked like they could pack up and leave in one hour.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I remember snake oil salesmen at the Colorado State Fair. This one guy had all kinds of gold (or allegedly gold) necklaces and he was supposedly a spectator along with everybody else watching the snake oil show but he was obviously a plant. He was saying how yes he had used the stuff they were promoting and it worked for him. I almost felt like laughing out loud. div>
It's unclear what a carnival salesman has to do with Archoil. The company makes a bunch of products, including diesel additives and even firearms lubes. They seem to have attracted the attention of Ford and Jay Leno - not sure which is more important. This thread notwithstanding, they seem to have a followership for their products. They're located in Connecticut - not Colorado.
I remember snake oil salesmen at the Colorado State Fair. This one guy had all kinds of gold (or allegedly gold) necklaces and he was supposedly a spectator along with everybody else watching the snake oil show but he was obviously a plant. He was saying how yes he had used the stuff they were promoting and it worked for him. I almost felt like laughing out loud. div>
It's unclear what a carnival salesman has to do with Archoil. The company makes a bunch of products, including diesel additives and even firearms lubes. They seem to have attracted the attention of Ford and Jay Leno - not sure which is more important. This thread notwithstanding, they seem to have a followership for their products. They're located in Connecticut - not Colorado.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
Food for thought!
So Archoil is no different to something like Synlube, MOS2, MMO and many other additives.
All these products rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
Food for thought!
So Archoil is no different to something like Synlube, MOS2, MMO and many other additives.
All these products rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
Food for thought!
So Archoil is no different to something like Synlube, MOS2, MMO and many other additives.
All these products rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
The Psychological Placebo
You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why
so many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any
other number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for
us - but we go ahead and do them anyway.
Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of
us hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have
purchased the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes
with thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing
knowledge of something just a bit better than everyone else.
Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need
we all seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any
shortage of unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to
believe that there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help
us lose weight, grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our
engines run longer and better. I doubt that there's a one of us who
hasn't fallen for one of these at least once in our lifetimes. We
just want it to be true so bad that we can't help ourselves.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt
Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical
print advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied
customer stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine
for 2 years and 50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better
gas mileage than ever before. I love this product and would recommend
it to anyone."
Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly
used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and
astrology.
Food for thought!
So Archoil is no different to something like Synlube, MOS2, MMO and many other additives.
All these products rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
The Psychological Placebo
You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why
so many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any
other number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for
us - but we go ahead and do them anyway.
Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of
us hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have
purchased the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes
with thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing
knowledge of something just a bit better than everyone else.
Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need
we all seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any
shortage of unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to
believe that there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help
us lose weight, grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our
engines run longer and better. I doubt that there's a one of us who
hasn't fallen for one of these at least once in our lifetimes. We
just want it to be true so bad that we can't help ourselves.
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
So Archoil is no different to something like Synlube, MOS2, MMO and many other additives. All these products rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
MoS2 is a dry chemical compound... not really a retail product. It may be incorporated into specific brand products like Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti-Friction or Mr Moly Engine Oil Supplement.
It so happens that Synlube's motor oil product also incorporates MoS2. It's ILSAC GF-1, GF-2, GF-3, GF-4 & GF-5 certified. The company's product history is quite amazing, including providing lubricants to NASA for the JPL developed Mars Rover "Sojourner" as well as the lunar rover used in Apollo XVI and XVII. The company has been in business since 1944, with a truly distinguished list of clients and users.
Marvel Oil Company has been around since the early 1920's and their user list includes the US Air Force plus several general aviation manufacturers. It's mostly used as a fuel additive so it's not clear why you lumped it in your list.
What motor oil products or additive products, if any, do you use?
So Archoil is no different to something like Synlube, MOS2, MMO and many other additives. All these products rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
MoS2 is a dry chemical compound... not really a retail product. It may be incorporated into specific brand products like Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti-Friction or Mr Moly Engine Oil Supplement.
It so happens that Synlube's motor oil product also incorporates MoS2. It's ILSAC GF-1, GF-2, GF-3, GF-4 & GF-5 certified. The company's product history is quite amazing, including providing lubricants to NASA for the JPL developed Mars Rover "Sojourner" as well as the lunar rover used in Apollo XVI and XVII. The company has been in business since 1944, with a truly distinguished list of clients and users.
Marvel Oil Company has been around since the early 1920's and their user list includes the US Air Force plus several general aviation manufacturers. It's mostly used as a fuel additive so it's not clear why you lumped it in your list.
What motor oil products or additive products, if any, do you use?
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The Psychological Placebo
You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why
so many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any
other number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for
us - but we go ahead and do them anyway.
Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of
us hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have
purchased the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes
with thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing
knowledge of something just a bit better than everyone else.
Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need
we all seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any
shortage of unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to
believe that there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help
us lose weight, grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our
engines run longer and better. I doubt that there's a one of us who
hasn't fallen for one of these at least once in our lifetimes. We
just want it to be true so bad that we can't help ourselves.
What brand motor oil do you use?
The Psychological Placebo
You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why
so many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any
other number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for
us - but we go ahead and do them anyway.
Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of
us hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have
purchased the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes
with thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing
knowledge of something just a bit better than everyone else.
Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need
we all seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any
shortage of unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to
believe that there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help
us lose weight, grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our
engines run longer and better. I doubt that there's a one of us who
hasn't fallen for one of these at least once in our lifetimes. We
just want it to be true so bad that we can't help ourselves.
What brand motor oil do you use?
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
I add Techron to fuel now and again but use top tier fuels as much as possible.
Techron? I hurried on over to Techron's site because I wanted to see the research behind their product. At one link, they claim Proven Science. That looked interesting, but all it said was:
'Techron's formulation is special because it contains polyetheramines. With over 30 years of robust research and development, Techron's unique polyetheramine formulations have been scientifically proven to prevent grimy deposits. The result is a cleaner engine, for maximum performance and lower emissions - proof that Techron works."
Proof? Well, "30 years of robust research and development' sounds good. Marvel Oil claims it's product has undergone 70 years of "rigorous testing". The problem at Techron's site (and at Marvel) is that they only provide you with conclusions.
Okay, maybe I picked the wrong Techron link. Then I tried Our Experts - surely a university or independent testing lab has checked out their product. All I got was the name Peter Fuentes-Afflick, Senior Fuels Engineer (his picture is there as well). He may be a great guy and a true additive expert, but he's also a hired gun at Techron/Chevron. Clearly, he has no independence of thought (not, at least, if he plans to keep his job). He probably believes in his product.
At least from this quick visit at Techron's site, there is no professional testing of the product, but there is plenty of anecdotal information - “The development of Techron makes a difference.” per Peter Fuentes-Afflick. Perhaps you can direct me to some independent professional testing of Techron?
Please don't misunderstand. Techron seems to be a good product. I've used it a few times and it worked as advertised (but that's just anecdotal). I suspect Techron/Chevron has actually done a lot of testing of their product in-house - but don't hold your breath waiting to see that research or even the unedited results of that research. About all you will see is the conclusions (the ones they want you to see). And if 'conclusions' at Techron satisfy your curiosity, then 'conclusions' at Marvel Oil's site should be good currency as well.
If you were Chevron, why would you bother to send this product out for independent evaluation? It's not going to help your sales. You might have to reveal some trade secrets to pointy-headed research types. What would you do if they came back and said "Techron resulted in total blindness in our lab rats" or "Techron dissolved the seals in a lab test tube"?
If I were Techron, I would do 100% of my testing in-house and make sure the raw results (good and bad) were carefully guarded corporate secrets. Chevron is in business to make money - not on some crusade to clean up the inside of engines.
You can Google 'Techron' and there are endless users, each of whom has an opinion on Techron. Sadly, it's all anecdotal. Techron may be one of those products that rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
I use the cheapest oil that meets my vehicle manufacturers specification
I won't even go there.
I add Techron to fuel now and again but use top tier fuels as much as possible.
Techron? I hurried on over to Techron's site because I wanted to see the research behind their product. At one link, they claim Proven Science. That looked interesting, but all it said was:
'Techron's formulation is special because it contains polyetheramines. With over 30 years of robust research and development, Techron's unique polyetheramine formulations have been scientifically proven to prevent grimy deposits. The result is a cleaner engine, for maximum performance and lower emissions - proof that Techron works."
Proof? Well, "30 years of robust research and development' sounds good. Marvel Oil claims it's product has undergone 70 years of "rigorous testing". The problem at Techron's site (and at Marvel) is that they only provide you with conclusions.
Okay, maybe I picked the wrong Techron link. Then I tried Our Experts - surely a university or independent testing lab has checked out their product. All I got was the name Peter Fuentes-Afflick, Senior Fuels Engineer (his picture is there as well). He may be a great guy and a true additive expert, but he's also a hired gun at Techron/Chevron. Clearly, he has no independence of thought (not, at least, if he plans to keep his job). He probably believes in his product.
At least from this quick visit at Techron's site, there is no professional testing of the product, but there is plenty of anecdotal information - “The development of Techron makes a difference.” per Peter Fuentes-Afflick. Perhaps you can direct me to some independent professional testing of Techron?
Please don't misunderstand. Techron seems to be a good product. I've used it a few times and it worked as advertised (but that's just anecdotal). I suspect Techron/Chevron has actually done a lot of testing of their product in-house - but don't hold your breath waiting to see that research or even the unedited results of that research. About all you will see is the conclusions (the ones they want you to see). And if 'conclusions' at Techron satisfy your curiosity, then 'conclusions' at Marvel Oil's site should be good currency as well.
If you were Chevron, why would you bother to send this product out for independent evaluation? It's not going to help your sales. You might have to reveal some trade secrets to pointy-headed research types. What would you do if they came back and said "Techron resulted in total blindness in our lab rats" or "Techron dissolved the seals in a lab test tube"?
If I were Techron, I would do 100% of my testing in-house and make sure the raw results (good and bad) were carefully guarded corporate secrets. Chevron is in business to make money - not on some crusade to clean up the inside of engines.
You can Google 'Techron' and there are endless users, each of whom has an opinion on Techron. Sadly, it's all anecdotal. Techron may be one of those products that rely entirely on personal testimony and even their most fervent supporters can't point to any professional testing.
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
I use the cheapest oil that meets my vehicle manufacturers specification
I won't even go there.
very nicely stated dave!! I agree!!!
Dave, while your tongue in cheek post is very cute, had you taken less time to actually research your premise vs write your post, you would see that "Techron" aka PolyEtherAmine (PEA), has been studied fairly extensively.
I'll do it for you, click HERE
Here's one, right here on BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3270798/PEA_and_Amine-based_Fuel_Syste
So, you choose the wrong product to make your point. If someone can point to similar studies on these various other products, maybe we'll listen to their claims. Techron HAS been studied extensively by industry (outside of Chevron).
I'll do it for you, click HERE
Here's one, right here on BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3270798/PEA_and_Amine-based_Fuel_Syste
So, you choose the wrong product to make your point. If someone can point to similar studies on these various other products, maybe we'll listen to their claims. Techron HAS been studied extensively by industry (outside of Chevron).
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Techron HAS been studied extensively by industry (outside of Chevron).
PEA may have been studied. Another user cited the patent application for PEA. Techron is a proprietary product of Chevron.
By that logic, you should look for studies on the ingredients in MMO or whatever product is on your hit list.
Techron HAS been studied extensively by industry (outside of Chevron).
PEA may have been studied. Another user cited the patent application for PEA. Techron is a proprietary product of Chevron.
By that logic, you should look for studies on the ingredients in MMO or whatever product is on your hit list.
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