Any idea why we have 5W-30 oils with HTHS >= 3.5?

[Joe90_guy]

I used to work on an oil refinery so I actually know a bit about blending gasoline. The processes behind it are much the same the world over. Catalytic reforming for making high octane reformate which is sulphur & nitrogen free. Both Isomerate and Butane are sulphur free. FCCU cracked naphtha does contain sulphur, nitrogen & olefin's but that depends usually on crude source and, for a given crude, will be the same whether you're in the US or Europe. Yes you can occasionally get 'nasties' in mogas (coker naphtha and steam cracked naphtha) but that's exactly the same on both sides of the pond.

And these days what exactly is US and European gasoline?? During the US driving season, vast quantities of European refined mogas is shipped across the Atlantic and at other times, we Europeans bring in ship loads of gasoline from Saudi Arabia and India.

Oh, and did I mention that before working on engine oils, I used to formulate fuel additives? No-one uses lead anymore but the US and Europe both add the same cocktail of detergents, corrosion inhibitors and antioxidants in roughly the same amounts to gasoline (not that this has much bearing on lubricant performance).

I think the whole 'US gasoline is worse hence we need shorter oil drains' argument is entirely bogus. That however won't stop it being perpetuated by those parties that benefit from maintaining the status quo.

 

[Kamele0N]

Here I compared EN590 vs ASTM D975...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3849700/Re:_FP60_additive_in_a_new_cle#Post3849700

 

[Joe90_guy]

Think those specs pertain to diesel, not gasoline, but I suspect I where you're coming from and where you're going wrong.

Specs for gasoline are different in the US and Europe. It may be that the gasoline spec in the US is more lax than in Europe. But there is the spec and then there's reality and you need to focus on reality, not the spec.

Here's a little illustrative example. It concerns US 10W30 oil...

http://www.pqiamerica.com/November%202011%20samples/testresultsnovbatch2(10W-30)2011.html

The CCS-25 spec for 10W30 is 7000 max. but just look at the 'real' CCS's of these oils. They're all a lot lower than the spec. One if them, the Tri Star oil, has a CCS-25 of 3657 cp. Almost half the spec value and this oil is virtually a 5W30!! See how you can't rely on spec limits to make judgements on 'real' quality?

Bottom line? US gasoline is to all intents and purposes the same as Euro gasoline so you can't ascribe difference in OCI to fuel quality...

 

[Garak]

What you say may very well be true, but you can be sure that the oil companies are going to scream (and raise prices) when ULSG is mandated in the U.S. and Canada.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Yes. Very true. But they will do it, and when they do, will they raise OCIs or will they think of another excuse to leave things as they are?

 

[Garak]

Probably not. A good indication would be what BMW does in North America. After all, they use the older spec oil in North America for their gassers than they do in Europe, citing that concern. There has, however, also been concerns raised about the ways the fuel charge actually occurs under the North American environmental regime versus the European one. We even see such hypothesizing when it comes to GDI deposits in Audis.

And, of course, it always depends upon the lube specified. Very few North American or Japanese automakers actually specify anything beyond the API and ILSAC minimums, far from an A1/B1 A5/B5 lube, let alone an A3/B3 A3/B4 lube. So, it remains to be seen, I suppose, but I wouldn't hold my breath, at least on one single issue being the turning point.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Lifted from a Honda Paper...

I think this shows the autobahn is different to the rest of the world, not necessarily that the US is different to the rest of the world.

 

[Joe90_guy]

I do wonder about this chart. Yes there are still parts of the Germany autobahn system that are unrestricted but the majority IS speed restricted. Driver speed on much of the network is light controlled and the Germans do tend to observe the set limits. Even on the unrestricted parts they still have 'recommended' 130kph (80mph) signs and you can get a ticket if the police judge you're driving too fast for the prevailing conditions. And let's not forget that Germans have to pay high prices for the their petrol and diesel fuel which tends to moderate their wilder urges to blast along at 240 kph!

The word 'Autobahn' suggest a far faster driving regime than actually exists in reality. The reality is that, with a few exceptions, it's not that different to driving along a UK motorway or a US highway.

 

[Kamele0N]

I dont know how is on highway in UK....but at least in D A and SLO people are used to drive 150km/h (around 100miles/h) on highways...

 

[LubeLuke]

I have been to both Germany and the UK many times. I lived in the UK for some years.

I found in the UK not many people do more than 90mph (145km/h), normal speed is 80mph (130km/h).
As has been said for Germany, the American perception of everybody driving 120mph (190km/h) is not true. I find normal people to not drive past 100mph (160km/h). People forget that the normal person still drives a normal car. Not everybody has a high performance BMW or Mercedes just because it is Germany.

I have nothing to add about the oils.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Benito
I think this shows the autobahn is different to the rest of the world, not necessarily that the US is different to the rest of the world.


Look at the chart a completely different way.

Everyone looks at the chart to try to explain why they have thicker oils on the autobahn...

turn it around to look at the US utilisation range... and the circuit range...look at the concentration of colour, indicating the percentage of time in the band.

The majority of the US fleet (and it's a big fleet) operation is clustered in a fairly predicable range.

If it's in a fairly predictable range, then statistically you can count on similar ranges and behaviours in your plans...and then specifiy viscosities that will be "fine" for the majority of the people, the majority of the time.

Eliminate the old temperature viscosity charts, throw in a single grade (with disclaimer sometines on viscosity and utilisation), and importantly for your CAFE status, be taking measures to ensure that the end user uses the grade that the vehicle was complied with.

With minimal risk to your warranty budget and reputation.

Circuit racing, you can similarly guarantee the revs and the load...just come up with a different anwser, especially since you aren't planning on the engines reaching their 200,000 mile birthdays.

The "guarantee of Autobahn" is more the less predictable utilisation...very different rev ranges, very different load profiles.

Designers need to design for the average, and it's way off where the US case happens to be...safest is what they choose.

The chart provides good justification for US oil choices. You are a well measured, known quantity, and specs can be assigned accordingly.

 

[Shannow]

re the disclaimer that some manufacturers have that hot, high speed, or high load "may" require a higher viscosity oil...which then get poo-poohed as use the lowest grade that they recommend.

That's the engineers suggesting that operation outside the "norms" that are displayed in the chart need a think.

Pretty much what the old charts used to tell you...grades for temperatures..."not for high speed operation"...blah blah.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
turn it around to look at the US utilisation range... and the circuit range...look at the concentration of colour, indicating the percentage of time in the band.

And note that it is an RPM band, too. Think of the stereotypical Town Car puttering along at the double nickel at 1800 rpm.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Benito
I think this shows the autobahn is different to the rest of the world, not necessarily that the US is different to the rest of the world.


Look at the chart a completely different way.

Everyone looks at the chart to try to explain why they have thicker oils on the autobahn...

turn it around to look at the US utilisation range... and the circuit range...look at the concentration of colour, indicating the percentage of time in the band.

The majority of the US fleet (and it's a big fleet) operation is clustered in a fairly predicable range.

If it's in a fairly predictable range, then statistically you can count on similar ranges and behaviours in your plans...and then specifiy viscosities that will be "fine" for the majority of the people, the majority of the time.

Eliminate the old temperature viscosity charts, throw in a single grade (with disclaimer sometines on viscosity and utilisation), and importantly for your CAFE status, be taking measures to ensure that the end user uses the grade that the vehicle was complied with.

With minimal risk to your warranty budget and reputation.

Circuit racing, you can similarly guarantee the revs and the load...just come up with a different anwser, especially since you aren't planning on the engines reaching their 200,000 mile birthdays.

The "guarantee of Autobahn" is more the less predictable utilisation...very different rev ranges, very different load profiles.

Designers need to design for the average, and it's way off where the US case happens to be...safest is what they choose.

The chart provides good justification for US oil choices. You are a well measured, known quantity, and specs can be assigned accordingly.


I get the chart AND agree with your comments.

I'm posing the question:

- Is it the US that is different from the rest of the world? or

- Is it the autobahn that is different from the rest of the world?

In other words, where is the rest of the world on that chart?

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
I have been to both Germany and the UK many times. I lived in the UK for some years.

I found in the UK not many people do more than 90mph (145km/h), normal speed is 80mph (130km/h).
As has been said for Germany, the American perception of everybody driving 120mph (190km/h) is not true. I find normal people to not drive past 100mph (160km/h). People forget that the normal person still drives a normal car. Not everybody has a high performance BMW or Mercedes just because it is Germany.

I have nothing to add about the oils.


I agree with your observations. But I also saw plenty of vehicles going in excess of 100mph. I always had the pedal to the floor any opportunity I got, and I managed to max out speed for several minutes.

But now add in the smaller engine factor. On one occasion I had a small engine small Mercedes, it could only do 120mph. But since it was possible to do 100mph most of the time, it was running at higher revs most of the time. Even the larger cars have smaller engines than the US.

So, USUALLY, 100mph-120mph in Germany is very different to 90mph again USUALLY, in the US.

 

[LubeLuke]

This information was found from Wikipedia.
"Measurements from the German State of Brandenburg in 2006 showed average speeds of 142 km/h (88 mph) on a 6-lane section of autobahn in free-flowing conditions"

Here is the link. This domain is an official government domain for Ministry of Infrastructure Brandenburg
http://www.mil.brandenburg.de/cms/media.php/lbm1.a.2239.de/studie_tempolimit.pdf
A direct Google translation of a quote from this .PDF so there are no arguments about misinterpretation in translation.
"On unlimited stretches average car speeds of 137 km / h (4-streaky) and 142 km / h were calculated (6-streaky). The fluctuations of the mean values are very high. If there is a speed limit, the speed decrease on average 127/132 km / h at 130 km / h or 117/122 km / h at 120 km / h average speed from. The fluctuations of the velocities and their mean values are significantly lower. The speed limits do not affect the averages of goods vehicles and buses."

You can see the average speed on roads without speed limit are only 137km/h for 4 lane, and 142km/h when there are 6 lanes.

Now we have actual data (this is what we like here, no?). Not just what my opinion or your opinion is.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
This information was found from Wikipedia.
"Measurements from the German State of Brandenburg in 2006 showed average speeds of 142 km/h (88 mph) on a 6-lane section of autobahn in free-flowing conditions"

Here is the link. This domain is an official government domain for Ministry of Infrastructure Brandenburg
http://www.mil.brandenburg.de/cms/media.php/lbm1.a.2239.de/studie_tempolimit.pdf
A direct Google translation of a quote from this .PDF so there are no arguments about misinterpretation in translation.
"On unlimited stretches average car speeds of 137 km / h (4-streaky) and 142 km / h were calculated (6-streaky). The fluctuations of the mean values are very high. If there is a speed limit, the speed decrease on average 127/132 km / h at 130 km / h or 117/122 km / h at 120 km / h average speed from. The fluctuations of the velocities and their mean values are significantly lower. The speed limits do not affect the averages of goods vehicles and buses."

You can see the average speed on roads without speed limit are only 137km/h for 4 lane, and 142km/h when there are 6 lanes.

Now we have actual data (this is what we like here, no?). Not just what my opinion or your opinion is.


That's fine and well but the point is that ENOUGH of a minority of people will utilize the autobahn to it's full extent.

So that has to be planned into the oil spec.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Benito
That's fine and well but the point is that ENOUGH of a minority of people will utilize the autobahn to it's full extent.

So that has to be planned into the oil spec.

 

[LubeLuke]

Can you show me where you are getting your information from? Or is this just an estimate based on your feelings or general knowledge? If so then I presume you have spent some time in Germany?

As you can see from my previous posts my general feeling and knowledge 'guessed' around 145km/h average. It was very close to what the average listed on the .pdf I posted, at 142km/h.

If you do not have the data then your point about enough of a minority of people utilizing the autobahn to it's full extent (I presume this is meant to mean people will drive much faster) is no more valid than someone who says that a thicker oil will provide more protection to the engine, based on feelings rather than data.

 

[turboseize]

Well, it's fairly obvious that when you can legally drive at full throttle for hours* there will be enough people who actually do.

Vollgasfestigkeit is just something that is taken for granted here.



*Obviously not during rush hours in metropolitan aeras, but just try a saturday night... A friend of mine once managed a door-to-door average of 176km/h over 560km. Myself, I came pretty close to the 170km/h door-to-door average over 740km several times with a classic car from 1983... Even though these are exceptions and my normal driving is much more restraint, these things happen.
When you look at business rentals, their onboard computers often have show long-term abverages above 120km/h, which, taking into account construction works and city driving, means that whenever they see an open stretch of Autobahn, they go full throttle. If a car cannot stand this, it does not deserve to be called "car". [censored] would be a better word.