Any FRAM users here?

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Sure, but I think you missed my point, which was did you cut open all of those filters to see if they were OK inside after being on the car for an OCI to ensure they were doing their job? In other words, if you found that every one of them had blown out media, then obviously they weren't doing their job of filtering the oil, and that in turn would be bad for the engine by causing accelerated wear.

It's easy for someone to say "I've ran 100s of oil filter brand X with zero problems." Well, if none of those filters were cut open and inspected after use, you would never know the difference unless one failed so badly that it cause the motor to blow up. IMO, a filter doesn't have to cause a motor to blow up to be a failure at being a filter.


But Zee, you can say EXACTLY the same thing about any filter. "Why I've run hundreds of (insert any name here) with zero problems." As you said, "That you know of..."

FDS has a hold on you today, Zee ( : < )


Sorry ... not following you. Not sure you are understanding my point, which is anyone who says "I've ran hundreds of filter brand X with no problems" (I'm taking about any filter here, not just FRAM) can't really justify that statement unless they cut open and inspect every filter they have ran to see if there were indeed issues going on with the filter or not. If you never cut open filters, you will never know if the media was torn, or anything else was wrong with the filter.

I did find torn media on a Purolator Classic filter (after cutting it open) that I had ran for 5,000 miles ... and after seeing that, I realized that filter was not doing it's job as designed and letting unfiltered oil through. For how long, who knows? ... worse case is it was doing that for 5K miles if the media tore right after it was installed.


Oh, I followed, but since you commented on a FRAM thread.... and specifically on a particular post that was somewhat positive towards, I decided to see if I could reboot your objectivity program ( : < )

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: GSCJR
So does this mean Purolator Classic filters are junk then? I don't think so...things happen.


No ... but it might mean that Purolators (or "Brand X") has less filter failure issues than "Brand Y". Frankly, I have seen more postings of failed FRAMs and Super Tech filters than any other brand on this board. Why would that be?

Originally Posted By: GSCJR
I previously posted this response in another thread..."I have done HUNDREDS of LOF's using Fram or Defense filters which are made by Fram...never a problem. I have used Fram or Defense exclusively for the past 12 years...never a problem.


Like I asked earlier ... did you cut open every one of those oil filters to ensure there wasn't an internal issue? If not, then that statement holds no more weight than saying that for any other brand of oil filter.

Not FRAM hatin' ... just pointing out that it seems some filters have more issues than others based on the information posted up by members here. In fact, I plan on buying an Ultra for my next oil change ... but wouldn't buy any other FRAM filter based on what I've seen and read about them. Just the way I choose my products.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Oh, I followed, but since you commented on a FRAM thread.... and specifically on a particular post that was somewhat positive towards, I decided to see if I could reboot your objectivity program ( : < )


I am objective. If I saw multiple posts about failed Mobil 1 filters, then I guess myself (and probably others) would think that Mobil 1 filters have some kind of built/quality issues. In fact, if I had more than one occurrence of a Purolator Classic having torn media, I'd stop using them completely. If I saw that many members reported failed Purolator Classics, then I'd also probably steer away from them based on others experiences. That's how people try to avoid a problem without "learning the hard way". A product's quality naturally builds its own reputation based on consumer's experiences with that product. It's no different with oil filters.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Frankly, I have seen more postings of failed FRAMs and Super Tech filters than any other brand on this board. Why would that be?



As far as the Frams go, maybe it's because Fram sells more consumer filters than anybody else and you will have more failures than anybody else just because there are more Fram filters out there. Or, it's because they are simply the OCOD, and they are a marginal entry-level filter. Take your pick.
As far as the SuperTech failures, I can just see somebody changing the oil and filter, using a 10W-XX oil and seeing that oil hit the media HARD after the initial start up, with no oil on the filtered side of the media to cushion the initial shock. But maybe I'm just over thinking all of it and there is simply too large of an opening behind the media.
I have no desire to buy any more E-core filters, but I've had no problems with the dozens that I've used.

 

[shell_user]

I have used both FRAM TG filters and ST filters in non e core varieties without issue.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Whenever someone says "without issue", I'm assuming you actually cut the filter open and looked inside. Or does that just mean your engine didn't blow-up?

If it's not the former, then "without issue" doesn't really mean much.

 

[shell_user]

This was pre BITOG days Zee. I did cut it open, and media was weak looking, but all in all it looked ok honestly. Engine runs fine also.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Frankly, I have seen more postings of failed FRAMs and Super Tech filters than any other brand on this board. Why would that be?

Not FRAM hatin' ... just pointing out that it seems some filters have more issues than others based on the information posted up by members here. In fact, I plan on buying an Ultra for my next oil change ... but wouldn't buy any other FRAM filter based on what I've seen and read about them. Just the way I choose my products.

How exactly are you defining "failed"? I've seen more pictures of Classics and E-cores on here with holes/tears in the media than Frams. Fram doesn't use enough media in the orange can IMO, but what they do use appears to be pretty strong. If you mean wavy, distorted looking media, I think the Classics and Frams are tied in that regard.

I still use both anyway. I just don't push either beyond what I consider reasonable limits for those filters, about 5k in my applications.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

How exactly are you defining "failed"? I've seen more pictures of Classics and E-cores on here with holes/tears in the media than Frams. Fram doesn't use enough media in the orange can IMO, but what they do use appears to be pretty strong.


Any time there is an issue that lets unfiltered oil past the media, then I'd put that into the "failed" category. The purpose of a full flow filter is to filter all of the oil passing through it. So if it allows unfiltered oil to pass for some reason, it has failed its purpose IMO.

There have been a few FRAM filters reported with torn media, but also some showing that the fiber end caps warp, which could cause incomplete sealing around the center tube at the end caps. If so, that can also cause dirty oil to get past the media.

I look at every filter's design and performance (regardless of brand or model within a brand), and how they hold up under use. If any one of those aspects don't hold up, then the filter doesn't look good to me.

 

[KCJeep]

Fair enough.

Not sure the endcaps are really supposed to "seal" anyway. One end of the Fram is octaganal, not round, so it's obviously not intended to seal anything. And metal encap filters do not have gaskets on the end caps, so they are not "sealing" either IMO. My understanding of the endcaps is they are supposed to hold the filtering media in position, nothing more.

How would oil even get to the filtering media if the endcaps sealed? Or are you referring to the seals around the center tube???

Either way that one aspect is not a deal breaker for me, since it is my understanding only about 1/3 of the oil is diverted through the filter every pass anyway.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Fair enough.

Not sure the endcaps are really supposed to "seal" anyway. One end of the Fram is octaganal, not round, so it's obviously not intended to seal anything. And metal encap filters do not have gaskets on the end caps, so they are not "sealing" either IMO.


I'm talking about the sealing area on the end caps where the center tube is located. If there was no seal there, then unfiltered oil would go directly into the center tube without going through the media. On FRAMs with paper/fiber end caps, you can see the sealing ring impression in the end cap around the center tube if the seal is working as designed. If the end cap warps out, then that seal can be compromised which could let unfiltered oil past the media.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Either way that one aspect is not a deal breaker for me, since it is my understanding only about 1/3 of the oil is diverted through the filter every pass anyway.


What? These are called "full flow" filters because ever drop of oil that goes into the filter is supposed to go through the filter media (unless the bypass valve opens up for some reason). How do you figure only 1/3 of the oil gets filtered? Are you thinking of a "bypass filter" setup?

 

[electrolover]

I know a guy with a honda with 250k miles. Its had nothing but GTX (" because every other oil will sludge up a motor") and orange cans. He runs between 8 and 10k ocis.
Im not saying they are good filters, but they wont kill an engine.

I did talk him into running MotorCraft filters on his F150 though. He now uses them because of the price.

 

[GSCJR]

No, I have never cut an oil filter open. I have also never had an engine fail as a result of poor lubrication or filtration.

 

[KCJeep]

Okay, we're on the same page now regarding seal, you're talking about center tube seal. Gotcha.

I too have seen pics of sloppy fit in that area on Frams.

I don't think it's an issue, the ADBV would still pressure seal that area on one side, and the leaf spring with the bypass the other. Both overlap the center tube diameter by at least 1/8" on the Fram media endcap filters amd oil pressure pushes both against the center tube and endcap.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Okay, we're on the same page now regarding seal, you're talking about center tube seal. Gotcha.

I too have seen pics of sloppy fit in that area on Frams.

I don't think it's an issue, the ADBV would still pressure seal that area on one side, and the leaf spring with the bypass the other. Both overlap the center tube diameter by at least 1/8" on the Fram media endcap filters amd oil pressure pushes both against the center tube and endcap.


True about the sealing ... if the end caps don't warp out. But they do sometimes.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: GSCJR
No, I have never cut an oil filter open. I have also never had an engine fail as a result of poor lubrication or filtration.


Then my response is the same as made above:
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Whenever someone says "without issue", I'm assuming you actually cut the filter open and looked inside. Or does that just mean your engine didn't blow-up?

If it's not the former, then "without issue" doesn't really mean much.


If you have never cut open an oil filter to inspect for filter problems, then you will never know if there were problems going on. Just because the engine didn't blow-up doesn't mean there might have been problems with the filter doing its job.

 

[GSCJR]

After hundreds of filters changed are you telling me I have good luck then? No lubrication/filtration mechanical failures ever?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: GSCJR
After hundreds of filters changed are you telling me I have good luck then? No lubrication/filtration mechanical failures ever?


Like I said earlier ... if a filter is leaking unfiltered oil, it doesn't mean the engine is going to "blow-up" or have a mechanical failure. It does mean however that the filter is not doing it's job and the engine could be suffering from undue increase in wear. If you or anyone else doesn't mind a filter not working properly, and letting your engine have unfiltered oil, then I guess you only care if the engine still runs or not and doesn't leave you stranded on the side of the road. Don't even really need an oil filter for that to occur - but personally I like to know the oil is being filtered as well as can be expected from an oil filter.

You will never know if the filter is good or bad unless you cut it open to look inside for problems. Waiting for an engine to blow-up to make the determination if the filter was the issue is a little late in the game IMO.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
True about the sealing ... if the end caps don't warp out. But they do sometimes.


I have seen that too upon occassion. As long as the endcaps are holding the media in place, they are doing their job. It may not look impressive, but it's not a "fail" unless it is no longer holding the media in position.

Fram flat out says the orange can is a 5k filter. I believe many of the internet orange can horror pictures we see are from filters used well beyond that.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
True about the sealing ... if the end caps don't warp out. But they do sometimes.


I have seen that too upon occassion. As long as the endcaps are holding the media in place, they are doing their job. It may not look impressive, but it's not a "fail" unless it is no longer holding the media in position.


I'm not talking about the media ends that are glued/sealed to the end caps. I'm talking again about the sealing area around the holes for the center tube. If the end caps warp, then that seal can be compromised and leak.

At least on filters with metal end caps, all you have to worry about is that the media doesn't tear. And with a center tube that has lots of small holes, that makes media failure pretty remote. The Classic that tore the media I had did so because there was way too much spacing between some of the pleats, and the pleat folded over and tore at the base where it was glued to the end cap.

Photos here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...902#Post2260902