Any aquarists in the house?

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Since ammonia is naturally alkaline, even a slight shift in pH can change harmless ammonium levels to the more harmful ammonia. Plus ammonia toxicity increases with temp. I wonder if the water heater placement had anything to do with it??? But I think you're right that it's too much water to see a spike like that so soon..but who knows......


That's true, especially since this is a new uncycled setup. I'm assuming no substrate or filtration media was carried over from the old tank.

Skippy, what do you use for a dechlor/water treatment? I like seachem prime or the granular form, safe. It does a lot more than dechlor and a little goes a long way with them.

0.25ppm ammonia is common if chloramine is used for your municipal water treatment as opposed to chlorine.


We're on a well, but I use API Stress Coat. It is softened water, but they've been living in it since May with no issues. At our previous house they lived in kind of hard city water, we moved in May and I transitioned them to softened well water, and then I brought them over last week. Both this house and the house we were renting (3 miles away) have Kinetico water softeners.

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
API makes fine products but I'm partial to Seachem and Kordon Amquel Plus when it comes to detoxifiers...but I'm sure Ammolock does a good job, API knows what they're doing.

If your fish were healthy prior to rehoming and by all accounts they were, right?...i personally only know of 2, maybe 3, things that can kill a fish so suddenly and that's toxic shock from ammonia and pH. The 3rd is something I've only ever read about and never personally seen and that's stray currents from an electrical device from something like a submersible water pump or heater.

Stray voltages..

https://www.thesprucepets.com/curing-stray-voltage-in-saltwater-aquarium-2924174


Yep, they were both happy and healthy prior to removal from the old tank. I'll definitely check for stray voltage though.

 

[Skippy722]

Blue got his color and energy back, as well as eating finally!

Ammonia is still 0.25ppm, will be keeping a very close eye on it.

 

[Ws6]

I just got a 55gal aquarium. I ran the garden hose into it, filled er up, but api prep or whatever in it, and have let it filter for the last month. In the next few weeks, my girlfriend and I will each select four fish to place in it.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Ws6
I just got a 55gal aquarium. I ran the garden hose into it, filled er up, but api prep or whatever in it, and have let it filter for the last month. In the next few weeks, my girlfriend and I will each select four fish to place in it.

Digging the white substrate, sand?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Ws6
I just got a 55gal aquarium. I ran the garden hose into it, filled er up, but api prep or whatever in it, and have let it filter for the last month. In the next few weeks, my girlfriend and I will each select four fish to place in it.

Nice addition to the LR.ðŸ‘...one thing, be careful with the natural sunlight. I've considered changing up my substrate to something lighter. I originally went with a black/colored rock because we did go fish years ago but now that they're all gone...I actually would like to go with white sand. I think the 2 Cory's I have would find it more to their liking.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just got a 55gal aquarium. I ran the garden hose into it, filled er up, but api prep or whatever in it, and have let it filter for the last month. In the next few weeks, my girlfriend and I will each select four fish to place in it.

Nice addition to the LR.ðŸ‘...one thing, be careful with the natural sunlight. I've considered changing up my substrate to something lighter. I originally went with a black/colored rock because we did go fish years ago but now that they're all gone...I actually would like to go with white sand. I think the 2 Cory's I have would find it more to their liking.

The curtains are blackout/99% block. They stay closed. Will it still be an issue?

Substrate is small white rock.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Nice addition to the LR.ðŸ‘...one thing, be careful with the natural sunlight. I've considered changing up my substrate to something lighter. I originally went with a black/colored rock because we did go fish years ago but now that they're all gone...I actually would like to go with white sand. I think the 2 Cory's I have would find it more to their liking.

The curtains are blackout/99% block. They stay closed. Will it still be an issue?

Substrate is small white rock.


I will never do sand again. Small gravel sure, but never sand!

You'll be fine with the blackout curtains. What kind of fish are you guys thinking? My wife wants angel fish, they can be very territorial. But I'm thinking I'll be sticking with cichlids... couple of angels, the blue Acara, I saw some really cool albino bristlenose pleco's at the store

 

[alarmguy]

Sorry to hear about your Oscar, yeah, ammonia Im thinking too, almost positive. Tank wasn't cycled, Im just chiming in here before work and didnt read through the posts to carefully.
When you set up the new tank did you use some of the gravel from the old tank or was it all new gravel?
That would explain the ammonia as the tank isnt cycled yet.

I haven't used a test kit in a decade and before that, maybe another decade but did learn a long time ago (yes the hard way)about making sure the tank was cycled and/or using a lot of the sand/gravel from the previous tank if there was one.
If brand new tank, you can also ask your local pet shop when buying fish to scoop up some gravel in one of there tanks and throw it in with the fish.
Always the best way.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Sorry to hear about your Oscar, yeah, ammonia Im think too. Tank wasn't cycled, Im just chiming in here before work and didnt read through the posts to carefully.
When you set up the new tank did you use some of the gravel from the old tank or was it all new gravel?
That would explain the ammonia as the tank isnt cycled yet.


Nope... started totally fresh. Had black sand in the old tank, switched to the river rock in this.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Nice addition to the LR.ðŸ‘...one thing, be careful with the natural sunlight. I've considered changing up my substrate to something lighter. I originally went with a black/colored rock because we did go fish years ago but now that they're all gone...I actually would like to go with white sand. I think the 2 Cory's I have would find it more to their liking.

The curtains are blackout/99% block. They stay closed. Will it still be an issue?

Substrate is small white rock.


I will never do sand again. Small gravel sure, but never sand!

You'll be fine with the blackout curtains. What kind of fish are you guys thinking? My wife wants angel fish, they can be very territorial. But I'm thinking I'll be sticking with cichlids... couple of angels, the blue Acara, I saw some really cool albino bristlenose pleco's at the store

Pretty ones that wont fight.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

I will never do sand again. Small gravel sure, but never sand!

You'll be fine with the blackout curtains. What kind of fish are you guys thinking? My wife wants angel fish, they can be very territorial. But I'm thinking I'll be sticking with cichlids... couple of angels, the blue Acara, I saw some really cool albino bristlenose pleco's at the store

Angel fish are cichlids.. and can get quite large and be nippy. They're not a "great" communal fish but will do just fine with other fish and cichlids their size.. especially African cichlids. They're beautiful fish..

I 2nd the curtains not being an issue so long as they're closed. It's only if they get opened that algae can be an issue.

Originally Posted by alarmguy
If brand new tank, you can also ask your local pet shop when buying fish to scoop up some gravel in one of there tanks and throw it in with the fish.
Always the best way.

Won't help any now but another good tip is whenever I'm readying to re-home, I place a piece of the old filter media into the new tank after it's de toxified of any chlorine/chloramines 24hrs later at least.

 

[JTK]

Ws6, Nice looking setup. That white substrate will turn an earth tone brown/green in no time once there's critters in there. I've been down that road.. Is the location you have the tank convenient for water changes? Windows can be handy to route house out of.

Can you get a sock/pantyhose of gravel or some sponge/media out of someone's established aquarium? You need a bit of it, like a few cups of gravel or a good chunk of filter media. Reason I ask is, just filling the tank and letting the filter(s) run for a month does nothing in terms of establishing the nitrogen cycle the tank needs for fish to survive. You can read up on "fish-less cycling" if you don't know anyone with a tank, or, like you mentioned, you can add 4 fish or so and do water changes often until a cycle is established. It takes 4-6 weeks typically. The beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate eventually form on the substrate, filter media and hardscape. Little/none of it free floats in the water column.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by JTK
Ws6, Nice looking setup. That white substrate will turn an earth tone brown/green in no time once there's critters in there. I've been down that road.. Is the location you have the tank convenient for water changes? Windows can be handy to route house out of.

Can you get a sock/pantyhose of gravel or some sponge/media out of someone's established aquarium? You need a bit of it, like a few cups of gravel or a good chunk of filter media. Reason I ask is, just filling the tank and letting the filter(s) run for a month does nothing in terms of establishing the nitrogen cycle the tank needs for fish to survive. You can read up on "fish-less cycling" if you don't know anyone with a tank, or, like you mentioned, you can add 4 fish or so and do water changes often until a cycle is established. It takes 4-6 weeks typically. The beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate eventually form on the substrate, filter media and hardscape. Little/none of it free floats in the water column.

Good post.ðŸ‘

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by JTK
Ws6, Nice looking setup. That white substrate will turn an earth tone brown/green in no time once there's critters in there. I've been down that road.. Is the location you have the tank convenient for water changes? Windows can be handy to route house out of.

Can you get a sock/pantyhose of gravel or some sponge/media out of someone's established aquarium? You need a bit of it, like a few cups of gravel or a good chunk of filter media. Reason I ask is, just filling the tank and letting the filter(s) run for a month does nothing in terms of establishing the nitrogen cycle the tank needs for fish to survive. You can read up on "fish-less cycling" if you don't know anyone with a tank, or, like you mentioned, you can add 4 fish or so and do water changes often until a cycle is established. It takes 4-6 weeks typically. The beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate eventually form on the substrate, filter media and hardscape. Little/none of it free floats in the water column.

Thanks. Did not know. We are starting with very few fish.

I thought just adding water that evaporates would work? I lose maybe a gallon or so a week to evaporation?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by JTK
Ws6, Nice looking setup. That white substrate will turn an earth tone brown/green in no time once there's critters in there. I've been down that road.. Is the location you have the tank convenient for water changes? Windows can be handy to route house out of.

Can you get a sock/pantyhose of gravel or some sponge/media out of someone's established aquarium? You need a bit of it, like a few cups of gravel or a good chunk of filter media. Reason I ask is, just filling the tank and letting the filter(s) run for a month does nothing in terms of establishing the nitrogen cycle the tank needs for fish to survive. You can read up on "fish-less cycling" if you don't know anyone with a tank, or, like you mentioned, you can add 4 fish or so and do water changes often until a cycle is established. It takes 4-6 weeks typically. The beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate eventually form on the substrate, filter media and hardscape. Little/none of it free floats in the water column.

Thanks. Did not know. We are starting with very few fish.

I thought just adding water that evaporates would work? I lose maybe a gallon or so a week to evaporation?

I'm not clear what you meant for the evaporation to do but in order to get a colony of beneficial bacteria jump started you, ironically you need to have something in the tank to "feed" the bacteria eg. ammonia. The bacteria consume the ammonia (deadly) and break it down into nitrites (harmful) and from there they break it down to nitrates (less harmful but tolerable by fish in low ppms). When a tank is fully cycled you will have a colony of beneficial bacteria that can handle (equilibrium) the ammonia from waste (excess food, fish poop). When you add your new fish you will get a spike in ammonia but hopefully it's just temporary as the colony of bacteria responds to the increased waste. You said you were leaning towards 4 fish total, right? If I were you I would add them 2 at a time. Give it a few days maybe even a couple weeks before adding the second pair. Test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates every couple of days and once you see the ppms settle down I'd then add the 2nd pair of fish.

Excuse me if you know this stuff already but I thought I'd mention it just in case you didn't. Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I use test strips for quick reading every few days and if I see changes in the nitrites/nitrates I'll then bust out the master test kit to get a better look at what the ammonia lvls are...but if you are seeing a spike in either the nitrates/nitrites it's a good bet your ammonia is rising.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by JTK
Ws6, Nice looking setup. That white substrate will turn an earth tone brown/green in no time once there's critters in there. I've been down that road.. Is the location you have the tank convenient for water changes? Windows can be handy to route house out of.

Can you get a sock/pantyhose of gravel or some sponge/media out of someone's established aquarium? You need a bit of it, like a few cups of gravel or a good chunk of filter media. Reason I ask is, just filling the tank and letting the filter(s) run for a month does nothing in terms of establishing the nitrogen cycle the tank needs for fish to survive. You can read up on "fish-less cycling" if you don't know anyone with a tank, or, like you mentioned, you can add 4 fish or so and do water changes often until a cycle is established. It takes 4-6 weeks typically. The beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate eventually form on the substrate, filter media and hardscape. Little/none of it free floats in the water column.

Thanks. Did not know. We are starting with very few fish.

I thought just adding water that evaporates would work? I lose maybe a gallon or so a week to evaporation?

I'm not clear what you meant for the evaporation to do but in order to get a colony of beneficial bacteria jump started you, ironically you need to have something in the tank to "feed" the bacteria eg. ammonia. The bacteria consume the ammonia (deadly) and break it down into nitrites (harmful) and from there they break it down to nitrates (less harmful but tolerable by fish in low ppms). When a tank is fully cycled you will have a colony of beneficial bacteria that can handle (equilibrium) the ammonia from waste (excess food, fish poop). When you add your new fish you will get a spike in ammonia but hopefully it's just temporary as the colony of bacteria responds to the increased waste. You said you were leaning towards 4 fish total, right? If I were you I would add them 2 at a time. Give it a few days maybe even a couple weeks before adding the second pair. Test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates every couple of days and once you see the ppms settle down I'd then add the 2nd pair of fish.

Excuse me if you know this stuff already but I thought I'd mention it just in case you didn't. Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I use test strips for quick reading every few days and if I see changes in the nitrites/nitrates I'll then bust out the master test kit to get a better look at what the ammonia lvls are...but if you are seeing a spike in either the nitrates/nitrites it's a good bet your ammonia is rising.

Did not know it was that sensitive. Each date night, we will go and each select one fish (2 total).

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Ws6

Did not know it was that sensitive. Each date night, we will go and each select one fish (2 total).


Yep... when my at the time 2 year old decided to feed the fish while I was at work, I got one heck of an ammonia spike. 0.50ppm was enough to kill my angels and Bala sharks.

 

[alarmguy]

Great explanations in here on the bacteria cycling of a new tank.

There are sets of bacteria that need to populate the tank. Since the tank and everything in it is new, you are starting a tank without the bacteria needed to support life.

First, the ammonia "eating" bacteria which convert deadly ammonia into less deadly nitrites.
Second the nitrite "eating"bacteria which convert the less deadly nitrite into harmless nitrates and normally kept in check (if you dont overfeed) by small water changes. There are other ways but won't get into that and not as important as salt water.

Bottom line, uneaten food, fish waste results in deadly ammonia being introduced into the tank.
With no bacteria to convert it into less harmful waste ammonia builds up to toxic levels, literally burns the gills of fish as they try to breathe.
Also within two to three weeks what was once clear water turns to cloudy white (this is actually a good thing sort of) the cloudy white water is a bacterial bloom because of all the ammonia, eventually the bacteria eats up the ammonia and settles down die off to a level that supports a balance of ammonia that is available. The tank turns crystal clear literally overnight when this happens. Once again, if your not bombing the tank with food.

1. If a brand new tank, fresh water or salt to speed up the process you can add a sturdy fish or two for the first couple weeks, feed them lightly.
If you dont add any fish, drop a small tiny amount of food into the tank every few days.
This is the mistake that isnt taught to new aquarists. many will go out, get a bunch of fish, only to die. Its kind of sad because people get frustrated.
If they dont die, the water gets cloudy in two to three weeks and they go out and start buying all this stuff to clear it up, not knowing this is a natural process that will clear up on its own. Adding chemicals to a tank is not needed and many times makes things worse because you are not addressing the issue.

2. Another mistake is overfeeding which compounds the issue, only adding greatly to the ammonia. The less food you give the fish the way better off they will be.
They will not starve, most deaths and issues and disease are from overfeeding. Literally polluting the water they swim in. Tip, if the fish are looking sad, or you see white spot developing no matter how long the tank has been running, the fish are stressed because of water pollution, sometimes just stop feeding them for a week will clear it up on its own, instead of adding chemicals to the tank which are dubious at best and other times end up making things worse.

3. By far,
The best methods to "cycle" a tank have been mentioned by many people in this thread.
New fresh water tank?
Dont settling for those gimmicks like "live gravel in a bag" or whatever, maybe not totally worthless but dubious. I never used them.

A. Best, try to get some gravel from a tank that is already running, even from a fish store, the more the better if its not the same color, no big deal, lightly sprinkle it around the tank, or put it in a pile that you can scoop out later, I even saw someone mentioned a "sock".

B. Find a store that still sells live plants (this is big) it doesnt matter if you will later on get rid of the plants, the goal here is to cycle the tank, but the live plants and roots will be well populated with bacteria. So get a small bunch, through them in there, the more the better then you can always throw them out later.

4. Finally, when adding fish, add only one or two at a time, give the bacteria in the tank to adjust to the population. Once a tank is established after two months this is not as critical.

5. In this respect, building a salt water reef tank is more easy because you are adding "live rock" to the tank yet which greatly speeds up the process and in reality the process is already in the rock, but the same can be said for adding live plants to fish water OR any items from a tank that has been up and running for a long time.

..
Trust me on this, adding food to the tank carelessly is their enemy. Almost every bottle of "cure" "medicine" for fish sold in stores that people buy to cure their fish is because they are only sick because they are being overfed. These "cures" can even make things worse and you end up in a downward spiral.
You cant carelessly add food to a "closed" ecosystem, it overloads the system, fish gets stressed and just like any other animal, then fall sick.

Just speaking form experience, like almost anyone made my mistakes decades ago as well as learned from research on keeping a reef tank decades ago.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted by Ws6


I thought just adding water that evaporates would work? I lose maybe a gallon or so a week to evaporation?


That's a pretty common misconception. Keeping fish in the same cube of water is the same concept as if you were being forced to stay in a pool of water and never get out. Do all your eating, dinking, etc. You get the picture. The water is going to get toxic pretty quickly. Filtration handles some free floating solids, but they don't go away. They stay in the filter.

I'm sure your head is spinning at this point and you're questioning if you even want to get into this hobby. It really isn't as bad as it seems. It's like a home biology and chemistry experiment at first, then I've found it to be rewarding.

If all you ever did is replace the water that evaporates two things happen:

#1 you have to remember all the dissolved solids in your tap water stay behind when the water evaporates. Like what's in your tea kettle over time. Eventually the total dissolved solids level gets so high in the tank that the pH will drop. If it drops slowly enough and the water will still support life, the fish will acclimate to the slow shift. Once something happens where you have to move the fish to another tank or do a water change on this tank, the pH will shift big time and kill fish. This scenario is referred to as "old tank syndrome".

#2 once the nitrogen cycle is established in your tank, all the nasties are converted to nitrate. The nitrate level creeps up daily from the fish's respirations, waste and the food you sprinkle in the tank. Excessive levels of nitrates weakens the fish's immune system and shortens their lifespan. The only way to get the nitrates out of there is to change water. Yes, live plants help eat some of it up, but it still creeps up over time. I try to gear my water changes so my tanks don't exceed 20ppm at any point. 30 or 40 isn't awful either, it just makes you change more water to drop it down so it doesn't creep past 30-40.

Just as examples, but on my oscar and green severum 75gal tank. Once a week I drain the tank down to the point the two goof balls are flopped over on the gravel giving me the stink eye. They're so used to it they stay put for the most part and then get all frisky on the refill. What I do is use a large gravel siphon vac and discharge it into a large storage tote on the floor with a submersible utility pump with a garden hose attached to the pump. I route the house out the door and pump the water onto my lawn. I have a sink a few feet from the tank so refills are a snap with a short section of hose. Prior to refilling, I sprinkle in seachem prime, treating for the fill 75gal and let the hose rip. Everything stows back in the tote when I'm done.

On my 55gal that's in a situation like yours, the tank is loaded with plants and not many fish. I do a 50% water change every 14 days on that tank. I use a large pitcher to bail into a 5gal bucket and toss the buckets out the nearby front door and onto the lawn. I then have to refill by 5gal bucket. Typically 5 of them. It's much nicer to have tanks placed such that no bucket toting needs to be done.

Hope none of us scared you away! Sorry if I repeated any of the great advice in this thread.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by Ws6


I thought just adding water that evaporates would work? I lose maybe a gallon or so a week to evaporation?


That's a pretty common misconception. Keeping fish in the same cube of water is the same concept as if you were being forced to stay in a pool of water and never get out. Do all your eating, dinking, etc. You get the picture. The water is going to get toxic pretty quickly. Filtration handles some free floating solids, but they don't go away. They stay in the filter.

I'm sure your head is spinning at this point and you're questioning if you even want to get into this hobby. It really isn't as bad as it seems. It's like a home biology and chemistry experiment at first, then I've found it to be rewarding.

If all you ever did is replace the water that evaporates two things happen:

#1 you have to remember all the dissolved solids in your tap water stay behind when the water evaporates. Like what's in your tea kettle over time. Eventually the total dissolved solids level gets so high in the tank that the pH will drop. If it drops slowly enough and the water will still support life, the fish will acclimate to the slow shift. Once something happens where you have to move the fish to another tank or do a water change on this tank, the pH will shift big time and kill fish. This scenario is referred to as "old tank syndrome".

#2 once the nitrogen cycle is established in your tank, all the nasties are converted to nitrate. The nitrate level creeps up daily from the fish's respirations, waste and the food you sprinkle in the tank. Excessive levels of nitrates weakens the fish's immune system and shortens their lifespan. The only way to get the nitrates out of there is to change water. Yes, live plants help eat some of it up, but it still creeps up over time. I try to gear my water changes so my tanks don't exceed 20ppm at any point. 30 or 40 isn't awful either, it just makes you change more water to drop it down so it doesn't creep past 30-40.

Just as examples, but on my oscar and green severum 75gal tank. Once a week I drain the tank down to the point the two goof balls are flopped over on the gravel giving me the stink eye. They're so used to it they stay put for the most part and then get all frisky on the refill. What I do is use a large gravel siphon vac and discharge it into a large storage tote on the floor with a submersible utility pump with a garden hose attached to the pump. I route the house out the door and pump the water onto my lawn. I have a sink a few feet from the tank so refills are a snap with a short section of hose. Prior to refilling, I sprinkle in seachem prime, treating for the fill 75gal and let the hose rip. Everything stows back in the tote when I'm done.

On my 55gal that's in a situation like yours, the tank is loaded with plants and not many fish. I do a 50% water change every 14 days on that tank. I use a large pitcher to bail into a 5gal bucket and toss the buckets out the nearby front door and onto the lawn. I then have to refill by 5gal bucket. Typically 5 of them. It's much nicer to have tanks placed such that no bucket toting needs to be done.

Hope none of us scared you away! Sorry if I repeated any of the great advice in this thread.

So how do I change out some 15-20 gallons of water without absolutely wrecking the temperature of the tank?