Another "Help Me Choose Between These" Thread

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
I'm hoping to get a group 4 or, preferably, 5 based on the literature I've read thus far, primarily from when I was studying motorcycle oils and deciding on a particular brand and formula. Based on what I've read from seemingly reputable and reliable sources, esters are polar and cling to metals thereby providing better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces when compared to group 3 or 4 oils. Therefore, if I can get a group 5 oil, whether its base or fortified 4, for the same price as a group 3 or 4, or blended 3/4 oil, then why not? I understand your point about the significance of additive or anti-wear packages. But yet again, if the same or similar additives are used for all "synthetic" oils (groups 3, 4, and 5), then the difference maker would in fact be the base.


Note that the polar structure of esters also has the negative consequence of interfering with the way anti-wear additives work... they "fight" each other for metallic surface area, resulting in more wear as the anti-wear additives aren't where they are supposed to be. As they say, too much of a good thing is not a good thing.

 

[MateoTorgy]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6?

5.6%.

Quote:
And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

It is "suitable for." That is not the same as approved.



In the spirit of BITOG, I'll be argumentative, priggish, and hypertechnical, and say that "suitable," an adjective meaning "right or appropriate for a particular person, purpose, or situation," does in fact mean it is "approved."

 

[MateoTorgy]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
I'm hoping to get a group 4 or, preferably, 5 based on the literature I've read thus far, primarily from when I was studying motorcycle oils and deciding on a particular brand and formula. Based on what I've read from seemingly reputable and reliable sources, esters are polar and cling to metals thereby providing better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces when compared to group 3 or 4 oils. Therefore, if I can get a group 5 oil, whether its base or fortified 4, for the same price as a group 3 or 4, or blended 3/4 oil, then why not? I understand your point about the significance of additive or anti-wear packages. But yet again, if the same or similar additives are used for all "synthetic" oils (groups 3, 4, and 5), then the difference maker would in fact be the base.


Note that the polar structure of esters also has the negative consequence of interfering with the way anti-wear additives work... they "fight" each other for metallic surface area, resulting in more wear as the anti-wear additives aren't where they are supposed to be. As they say, too much of a good thing is not a good thing.


Are you saying anti-wear additives separate from the base, and the two operate in a mutually exclusive manner? That's interesting.

 

[MateoTorgy]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6?

5.6%.

Quote:
And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

It is "suitable for." That is not the same as approved.



Are you now saying an engine does know the difference between a 5.6 and 6% NOACK? Because a wise person told me just a few posts ago that it doesn't matter and that engines won't know the difference.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6?

5.6%.

Quote:
And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

It is "suitable for." That is not the same as approved.



In the spirit of BITOG, I'll be argumentative, priggish, and hypertechnical, and say that "suitable," an adjective meaning "right or appropriate for a particular person, purpose, or situation," does in fact mean it is "approved."

Getting an official manufacturer approval requires that an oil undergoes and passes the appropriate battery of tests. The same is not required just to put the words "suitable for" on the label.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6?

5.6%.

Quote:
And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

It is "suitable for." That is not the same as approved.



Are you now saying an engine does know the difference between a 5.6 and 6% NOACK?

I said no such thing. You asked what its Noack was, and I answered your question.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6?

5.6%.

Quote:
And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

It is "suitable for." That is not the same as approved.



Are you now saying an engine does know the difference between a 5.6 and 6% NOACK? Because a wise person told me just a few posts ago that it doesn't matter and that engines won't know the difference.

5.5 compare to 6%? No. But what I did is trying to tell you that GrIII oils today can have very good performance, even better then Ester based.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
In the spirit of BITOG, I'll be argumentative, priggish, and hypertechnical, and say that "suitable," an adjective meaning "right or appropriate for a particular person, purpose, or situation," does in fact mean it is "approved."


It may tick all of the boxes in terms of HTHS, NOACK, viscosity, etc., but how it performs actually performs in BMW's various tests, such as piston cleanliness, wear, valvetronic, turbo-cooking, fuel economy, and others, is another story. Amsoil went and got approvals for a few of their "Euro" line of oils, however, they still don't have LL-01 approval for those oils, and I doubt it's for lack of trying. LL-01 is a very difficult approval to pass.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6?

5.6%.

Quote:
And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

It is "suitable for." That is not the same as approved.



In the spirit of BITOG, I'll be argumentative, priggish, and hypertechnical, and say that "suitable," an adjective meaning "right or appropriate for a particular person, purpose, or situation," does in fact mean it is "approved."

Nope IT DOES NOT!
Approved oil means that redline sends sample to ACEA, BMW, MB etc. and they test it, send back document that states that oil is APPROVED!
"Suitable" for, "Meets or exceeds" etc. is marketing for those who do not understand how approval process works.
What Redline is telling you is: we think our oil is good for BMW engines, but we did not send it to BMW to test it, because there is no need. We know better then those engineers that built engine.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Are you saying anti-wear additives separate from the base, and the two operate in a mutually exclusive manner? That's interesting.


I know this is from 2008, but there is a lot of good info here: http://www.aea.org.br/apresentacoes/lub08/Sandra_Mazzo_Skalski.pdf page 14

I've also heard it from a company that makes mPAO-based racing oils.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I seriously do not understand your emphasis on GrIV or V. Final product is what matters.
Redline claims hat it is 100% Ester based, but they are not approved oil, and getting approval is cheap.
It is the final product that matters. M1 5W30 ESP that I use in BMW is VISOM based (GrIII) but has lower NOACK then Redline, has HTHS almost on par with Motul X-Clean 5W40, has ridiculously high flash point, low pour point.
By the way, Castrol 0W30 and 0W40 are made from same base, except 0W40 is $25 in Wal Mart for 5qt.


I'll try to address each of your points.

I'm hoping to get a group 4 or, preferably, 5 based on the literature I've read thus far, primarily from when I was studying motorcycle oils and deciding on a particular brand and formula. Based on what I've read from seemingly reputable and reliable sources, esters are polar and cling to metals thereby providing better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces when compared to group 3 or 4 oils. Therefore, if I can get a group 5 oil, whether its base or fortified 4, for the same price as a group 3 or 4, or blended 3/4 oil, then why not? I understand your point about the significance of additive or anti-wear packages. But yet again, if the same or similar additives are used for all "synthetic" oils (groups 3, 4, and 5), then the difference maker would in fact be the base.

That's just to address your point about why I would prefer a group 5. You may have noticed that in a recent post, I announced my decision to narrow my choices down to either the Pennzoil 5W40 Platinum Euro or the Castrol 5W30. I was talked out of Red Line 5W30 early on in the thread. However, you claim that your Mobil 1 has a better NOACK than Red Line. Are you saying your Mobil 1 has a NOACK below 6? If that's the case, then hats off to M1. Still, new BMW cars can't use M1. Well, I guess they can, but our dealer at time of sale and the owner's manual advises against using any non LL-01 certified oil, and M1 lost that certification several years ago. And contrary to your statement, Red Line 5W30 is indeed an approved oil -- ACEA A3/B4 LL-01.

Finally, Castrol's 0W30 and 0W40 may be made using the same base, BMW recommends use of 0W30, while allowing 0W40. So, if I can get either for the same price -- and I can due to a local sale on OW30, I'll let that be the tie breaker. I realize that I'm still considering PP 5W40 Euro, but it's the only readily available PP that is certified for A3/B4 and LL-01.






1. Mobil1 5W30 is approved oil for BMW diesel engines. It carries BMW LL-04 approval. I wanted to give you an example that GrIII, Gr IV etc. is irrelevant as long as final product is good.
2. Esters are polar, and all good GrIII oils (including M1) have small amount of Esters precisely because of that reason. They have also 1-5% of PAO, etc. Like I said, final product is what matters.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I seriously do not understand your emphasis on GrIV or V. Final product is what matters.
Redline claims hat it is 100% Ester based, but they are not approved oil, and getting approval is cheap.
It is the final product that matters. M1 5W30 ESP that I use in BMW is VISOM based (GrIII) but has lower NOACK then Redline, has HTHS almost on par with Motul X-Clean 5W40, has ridiculously high flash point, low pour point.
By the way, Castrol 0W30 and 0W40 are made from same base, except 0W40 is $25 in Wal Mart for 5qt.


I have some M1 5W30 ESP sitting in the garage waiting for my next oil change, but it is important to note that it has a somewhat low starting TBN (6.5 according to the Russian Oil Club) and may not be well suited to long oil change intervals. It has a dose of calcium-based detergents that is comparable to that in standard M1 5W30, but very little of the magnesium-based variety that is used to boost the TBN of the latter product.

Other than the TBN, the ESP seems like a "super-oil"...

Nope, M1 5W30 ESP has right amount of TBN. It is made for cars that require Low-SAPS oils like my X5 35d because of DPF.
I put that oil in discussion just to point that final product matters, not base stock.

 

[MateoTorgy]

So is Mobil 1 "certified," "approved," or "suitable" for use in BMWs?
Seriously guys, I'm having a difficult time finding any information concerning the distinction between "approved" and "suitable." In fact, API seems to use the two words interchangeably.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
So is Mobil 1 "certified," "approved," or "suitable" for use in BMWs?
Seriously guys, I'm having a difficult time finding any information concerning the distinction between "approved" and "suitable." In fact, API seems to use the two words interchangeably.

There are numerous Mobil1 oils.
I was giving you an example of Mobil1 compare to Redline (Euro Low-Saps series).
Yes, Mobil1 5W30 ESP is approved by BMW to be used in BMW diesel engines or wherever BMW LL-04 spec. is required.
Mobil1 0W40 FS is NOT approved, and Mobil1 does not play those games "suitable," "meets or exceeds." When Mobil1 sells oil they list specification they got approval for.

 

[MateoTorgy]

I'm getting a headache. Just kidding.
All of this info is fantastic. Keep it coming please.
You guys are very informative.

 

[MateoTorgy]

Red Line should be ashamed. This is the type of stuff that discredits an entire company.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Red Line should be ashamed. This is the type of stuff that discredits an entire company.

Why? They're not claiming that their oil is "approved." Only you (and possibly some others) came to this conclusion.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
Red Line should be ashamed. This is the type of stuff that discredits an entire company.

It is endless source for discussion.
Redlines are good oils, but begs question why they do not approve it. Even Amsoil started to get approvals.
As for your comment how BMW does not recommend 0W40, BMW has 0W40 LL-01 oil on sale in Europe.
As long as oil meets LL-01 you can use it in your BMW gas engine.
I used Castrol 0W30 a lot in my cars. It is fantastic oil, especially performance in cold. However, 0W40 is equally fantastic and has bit highe HTHS which is what matters in turbo application.

 

[MateoTorgy]

So are you trying to tell me that through this Socratic method of learning, in my dialogue with the respected council of elders, I've come to the conclusion that the ideal oil (performance, cost, availability) is the oil I currently have in my basement, which I've been using for my truck?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
So are you trying to tell me that through this Socratic method of learning, in my dialogue with the respected council of elders, I've come to the conclusion that the ideal oil (performance, cost, availability) is the oil I currently have in my basement, which I've been using for my truck?

Yes.
Do not forget, Euro W40 oils are on thin side.